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My Health Care Rant

J

john in la

Well-known Member
Location
What part of in La do you not understand
I go in for my yearly check up and the nurse practitioner tells me I should get the Sebaceous cysts removed from my back.
I tell her OK get the doctor in here and go at it; I got time.
OH No!! we can not do that here we need to send you to a specialist.
I feel like saying;...So what do you do?? Check blood pressure and write RX's.

So I go to the specialist; a general surgeon.
He walks in and looks at it.
Yes you got a Sebaceous cysts on your back.
Well DUH. We knew that already.
So when do you want to schedule the out patient surgery?
Wait we are not going to do this now; in the office so it will be covered under my co-pay.
No we do all surgery in a out patient setting.

OK I can live with all the above.
Maybe the cyst is a little to big for in the office work.
Maybe the doctors office is just to scared of law suits to do minor surgery in the office.
But here comes the rant.

Now we are out of my office one price covers everything co-pay part of my insurance and go into $500 deductible and 20% co-pay.
So while talking to the nurse to schedule the surgery I ask can we send in a pre bill to the insurance so I can get approved and get a idea of my portion of the bill.
She explains to me that while she "might" be able to get the doctors portion of the bill she could not get the entire charge because there is facility charges; anesthesiologist charges; and I am thinking others. No way we could know all the charges in advance.

So I go talk the financial department at the clinic to see if they could get me a total bill in advance so I can get a idea on the cost. They tell me no. We just call your insurance to make sure you have coverage; collect the $500 deductible on the day of the surgery and send you a bill for the 20% co-pay.

So I call the insurance company. They tell me there is know way to know the charges until everyone involved sends in the final bill with the medical codes listed. Different codes pay different amounts.
They even tell me that the same code from 2 different places would be 2 different amounts as each has different contracts.

So I can take my tractor in for service and the mechanic can give me estimate.
I can go to the dentist and my insurance can give me a to the penny cost on a root canal and crown and it does not matter what dentist I go to as long as they are on my plan.

But a doctors office can not tell me if a surgery is going to cost $15 or $15,000 in advance.

Doctors offices and hospitals are so use to; I am sick; Fix me; and I do not care what it cost; mentality that they have no way of figuring a estimate in advance.
 
Have you ever had a mechanic call you while they were working your vehicle and tell you that there is a whole more wrong(and expensive) than originally thought? My wife just had
surgery it was thought to be real simple take a small growth off her thyroid turns out the 'small growth' was the size of a baseball and it was intertwined with several things surgery
took over 3X as long as thought at first.Hard to give a price on something like that,not like a vehicle when you can just say well forget it I'll just total it out.
 
When my first wife was battling cancer her oncologist actually told us that they have to run several test even if they (the doctor) doesn't think it is necessary. That way they are protected from mal practice law suits.
 
comparing a tractor or auto repair to human surgery is out of the realm of reality. be glad you have good ins.
 
But according to all the arm chair health care experts,you're supposed to shop around for the best deal. You mean to tell me they're wrong and you can't do that? I'm shocked! They say it with so much confidence,it has to be true doesn't it?
 
Ignorant Judges that allow silly law suits are a lot of the blame for this kind of run around and extra exspense...In the old days the local family doctor would roll you over and Lance that out,,put a bandaid on it and sent you out the door...
 
John - it's been a few years ago when I had five or six of those Sebaceous cysts that had to be removed. I also wanted my doctor to remove them in his office. He said that he had to do them in the surgery room at the local hospital because his office was not clean enough. "Clean enough" means different things to different people - in my view, his office was spotless.

I also got into a billing quandary a few months ago when my wife needed a simple procedure. I tried to get a handle on the total cost, since the doctor implied that our insurance might not cover it. They sent in two people from their billing staff to discuss the issue - all dead serious and sober as a judge. They would not give me an estimate of the cost. Finally I told them that the wife was definitely going to have the procedure - all I needed to know was - do I need to sell one cow or the whole farm. Then they laughed and said maybe one cow. In the end, the insurance covered it, with the normal expected deductible.

Good luck - it's frustrating, and I look for it to get much worse before it gets better.
 
If only we could have health care like the developed countries of the world, Canada, Germany, where health care is not run by big business for profit. Think about it when you vote!
 
Had rotator cuff surgery a few years ago. Doctor had planned on a 45 minute procedure. The tear was worse than expected and took over 1 1/2 hr's to do. I was supposed to stay the night in a care facility adjacent to the hospital for one night but ended up in a hospital bed for that night instead. When I had the other one done it was a same day procedure. In at 5:30 am, out at 10 am. They never know what they can run into once they start.
 
I'll pass on the waiting lines and lack of even basic procedures thank you. Not to mention that the cost is still there and you still pay it, it just comes from taxes rather than insurance.
 
Profit drives companies to develop new products. Same is true in medicine. Some of the amazing medical advancements came about by companies doing research and development in hopes of making a profit. Countries like Canada get to piggy back on this profit driven system without having to pony up the extra dollars for health care.
 
I had a couple removed from my face a few years ago. Same deal. 3rd appt was the procedure. Took me less time to drive there than to cut them out.

Had a couple new ones pop up. This time they just scheduled me for te procedure.
 
I'll tell you Jon,I never thought in a million years that I'd agree with what Russ said,but it's getting to that point. And I say that as somebody who'll be on the government take on Medicare in 30 months anyway. This isn't the 50s or 60s anymore when most folks had good union jobs or when Blue Cross premiums were $25 a month for a family of 6 and that insurance would actually pay for health care.
The more I talk to folks from European countries where they have socialized medicine and learn what it really is,the more embarrassed I am with what we have and are willing to tolerate here in the name of "freedom". What we have is just a national embarrassment.
 
(quoted from post at 09:21:33 12/30/17) I go in for my yearly check up and the nurse practitioner tells me I should get the Sebaceous cysts removed from my back.
I tell her OK get the doctor in here and go at it; I got time.
OH No!! we can not do that here we need to send you to a specialist.
I feel like saying;...So what do you do?? Check blood pressure and write RX's.

So I go to the specialist; a general surgeon.
He walks in and looks at it.
Yes you got a Sebaceous cysts on your back.
Well DUH. We knew that already.
So when do you want to schedule the out patient surgery?
Wait we are not going to do this now; in the office so it will be covered under my co-pay.
No we do all surgery in a out patient setting.

OK I can live with all the above.
Maybe the cyst is a little to big for in the office work.
Maybe the doctors office is just to scared of law suits to do minor surgery in the office.
But here comes the rant.

Now we are out of my office one price covers everything co-pay part of my insurance and go into $500 deductible and 20% co-pay.
So while talking to the nurse to schedule the surgery I ask can we send in a pre bill to the insurance so I can get approved and get a idea of my portion of the bill.
She explains to me that while she "might" be able to get the doctors portion of the bill she could not get the entire charge because there is facility charges; anesthesiologist charges; and I am thinking others. No way we could know all the charges in advance.

So I go talk the financial department at the clinic to see if they could get me a total bill in advance so I can get a idea on the cost. They tell me no. We just call your insurance to make sure you have coverage; collect the $500 deductible on the day of the surgery and send you a bill for the 20% co-pay.

So I call the insurance company. They tell me there is know way to know the charges until everyone involved sends in the final bill with the medical codes listed. Different codes pay different amounts.
They even tell me that the same code from 2 different places would be 2 different amounts as each has different contracts.

So I can take my tractor in for service and the mechanic can give me estimate.
I can go to the dentist and my insurance can give me a to the penny cost on a root canal and crown and it does not matter what dentist I go to as long as they are on my plan.

But a doctors office can not tell me if a surgery is going to cost $15 or $15,000 in advance.

Doctors offices and hospitals are so use to; I am sick; Fix me; and I do not care what it cost; mentality that they have no way of figuring a estimate in advance.
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I get them from time to time. Usually they are not that much of an issue and doing nothing may be an option. I have had a couple of them cut-out, and was done then and there, in the dermatologists office. Couple . few stitches that the wife removes later. Some PAs (physician assistants) do this under physician oversight.

I am not a physician, please seek competent medical advise, all cases are different and may have other complications.

Good luck and may you and yours have a great, safe 2018!
George
 
I went through the exact same thing about 15 years ago. I told them at some point someone is going to go to the "price sheet" and get the amount to put on the bill so why can't you send me to that office today and they can look it up right now? As far as insurance and clinics... they are all in bed together.
 
Lack of basic procedures? Do explain that please, kinda curious what you are talking about since I have never encountered that once in my life in Canada. As for the waiting lines, that is an exaggerated statement used mostly by people who have a beef wth socialized medicine. If my tax dollars goes toward keeping Canadians healthy and alive, more power to the gov?t, better spent on that than spurious programs...
 
(quoted from post at 08:00:24 12/30/17) If only we could have health care like the developed countries of the world, Canada, Germany, where health care is not run by big business for profit. Think about it when you vote!
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Maybe, but if there was no such thing as health insurance, no one would need it. Before I turned 30 years old, I had no health insurance. Very few folks did at that time. I visited the doctor many times. Never had any problem with paying the bill. Both of my children were born in that time frame. Again, no problem at all with paying the bill. I even underwent an emergency appendectomy. If I remember right, I probably did make payments on that one, but it was still very reasonable.
 
We all understand there can be complications in the procedure which will up the bill. We are just asking for the price of the routine procedure so we have some idea of what to expect.
 

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want more government involvement in something they (government) had a large hand in messing up to begin with. The majority of issues with healthcare resulted from government and huge, ridiculous settlements to folks in the millions to 10s of millions of dollars.

If a person earns even a hundred thousand a year, there is no way they should be getting millions of dollars awarded in malpractice suits. They would not earn that money in 20 lifetimes. Sure, they should be compensated for their loss, plus pain and suffering, however, it should be a realistic sum within their income potential, loss, how many years, lifetime, severity, etc, We need tort reform and not just in healthcare, most of us do not realize how much we pay for settlements or the risk for all products.

How many of these "civilized" countries invented CT scanners, MRI, 3D diagnostic imaging, etc.? The United States is where many of the advancements come from. Other countries are ahead in some things, because we have moral / mores that prevent procedures /studies, some, perhaps rightfully so.

The above are some quick points, there is a lot more to it, and other factors as well.
 
Before you get all hyped up on socialized medicine, talk to a vet and get his/her opinion of socialized medicine. I'm a vet and for sure I will go to a regular doc before going to a veterans do nothing if it's not on the computer screen freak.
 
Exactly. I can't speak for Canada,but in Sweden,they have a time limit that you can be kept waiting,and it's measured in hours,not days.

Call your family doctor here in the US and try to make an appointment. You'll be lucky to get in within the next two weeks. If it's something that needs attention,they'll tell you to go to the emergency room. Then see how long you sit there and wait. If you do make an appointment with your doctor and they tell you to come in three weeks from Tuesday at 2pm,go sit in the waiting room and see if you actually get in a 2pm. Good luck.
 
The Veterans Administration is a mess and an embarrassment. I'm just telling you that in countries that have and have had socialized medicine for years,and they've tweeked the system and fixed it as needed instead of throwing it all out and starting over every time the political wind changes,it's working for them. Our insurance and HMO system just keeps getting worse by the day. This ain't the country that we grew up in,and it ain't coming back. Times have changed and we have to face it and learn to live with it.
Doesn't matter to me,like I said,30 months and I'm on Medicare,but there are generations coming along who have to have something done with the system. It'll be their world eventually,and if it's what they want,it'll be what they have,no matter what a bunch of old coots like us say.
 
I'll say this again. Of course they can't estimate unusual circumstances and op was not asking for that. Just tell me what it will cost if everything is standard procedure. They want to leave the door open on price so in the end they can add what ever $ they want. Unlike you're tractor where they now see it needs a new starter too, with surgery, you cannot see if they actually installed the new "starter". I actually believe they want to make x number of dollars on that operating room every day so they have to see how many surgeries they had that day and add on to the bills before they send them out. That is why they cannot give you a price ahead of time.
 
If I see a cardiologist at the local hospital for a check-up it goes towards my deductible. So a stress test locally is $3500 out of my pocket. If I drive 25 miles farther I get $3500 of tests for the $80 copay. Different cardiologist/hospital but I like him better. No-brainer but screws people over that don't know this.
 
If you want some real shock, you should do some research and see what the CEO's of the health insurance companies make, on a annual basis, it's appalling. You could also move to southeast Wisconsin, where according to the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel paper a few years ago, this area has the highest medical fees of anywhere in the U.S. Not to mention you see health care facilities going up all the time, big lavish buildings with lights on, and flat screen tv's everywhere on all the time. And don't get me started on the doctor drug culture and their inability to actually cure/heal someone and how they just want to keep you on the drugs so that they can get their kickbacks from the pharmaceutical companies. There is also web sites that you can check out where you can look up doctors and see just what kickbacks they get and how much. It's just one big money making machine. Farmers need to start charging like the insurance companies do, where any little thing that is used to produce a crop or produce etc. is itemized and charged for with a substantial markup. Furthermore, the medical world gets paid, even if they don't cure or heal.
 
I have never had to wait for anything, $232 month for my wife and i , includes drug and eye. Some procedures do have wait times in Canada and Our hospitals are very busy because it doesn't cost us our pension plan or our homes or farms to be treated. Oponents of helath care in the US have always drummed up waiting time as the reason not to have universal health care. Here's what to expect. If you want your knee replaced and you've been thinking about it for the last nine years...you might have to wait six months to get it done..BIG DEAL ! If you are in an accident you go straight to emerge by ambulance and are immediately admitted and treated. Your doctor office or clinic visit is covered. You doctor can get you in for surgery or treatment with the stroke of his pen. My example: I had a stroke, was treated immediately, assigned a specialist in stroke, give every kind of scan and heart bubble test, remained with a specialist who sees me every two years and monitors my bloodwork and prescribes . He is Canada's top stroke doctor at the University of Western Ontario. The only cost I incurred was for my gasoline to drive to my appointments. Yes we pay more taxes than Americans, sales tax and fuel tax but I pay for my health care coverage and I pay my taxes, our system works and people aren't burdened with hospital or doctor bills that are in the thousands and thousands.
 
A couple things about Swedish health care. It's definitely not all roses there.
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Click here
 
I really am not the export but I also don't think a bunch of politicians in DC should be deciding what I need or can afford for my health care either ,I would like a choice of what I do for insurance and if I could afford it or took a chance it should be my decision , Wife works at Mayo clinic we are probably 400 miles from Canada and I guarantee you I can drive to one of the parking lots there and find several cars from Canada as well as the rest the U S , personally over the last 200 yrs the healthcare has been tops in the world people from allover the world come here for treatments ,education and new treatments , and they didn't need socialism to make it work ,
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Socialized medicine is far from perfect, but it is peace of mind that I have no issue with my tax payer dollar going into. The number of people in the US who have died or been bankrupted in the past because they lacked insurance for treatment must be staggering.
 
Allowing the government to become involved in health care (or, pick a topic) is one of the most catastrophic mistakes allowed by the American People.

Sadly, the genie is out of the bottle and can never be put back in.

Dean
 
The V A is a total joke. It has been four years since they lost my records. Now they send me a notice that in 3 to 4 months. They will send me an appointment date. Which means who knows when they will see me. I have problems from Agent Orange and mental. The V A is so messed up it is beyond belief.

It is sad that veterans that served the country and need help. Have to wait years to get help. While someone in prison must be seen within 24 hours of requesting help. By law.
 
I sat right here at my kitchen table while Thoger told me about his experience with a bout of cancer in Sweden. He went to his doctor who suspected he had it. Within 24 hours he was in the office of a world class cancer specialist and 48 hours later he was in the recovery room. I tried to bait him in to saying something negative about their system,but he wouldn't do it. He loves it. But I guess I should believe an article over looking a friend in the eye while he tells me of his own personal experience.

Would we find it perfect? I doubt it. When my son took Stephen and Nicolas to the store here when they came over to hunt for the first time,they were blown away by all the drugs that are available to us right off the shelf in the grocery store. There are no such things as over the counter drugs over there. You can't even buy aspirin without a prescription,but when I asked how that went for them,nobody would complain. They said it's not a problem because there's no waiting at the doctors office,no charge,and let's face it,it's what they're used to. It might be strange to us,but our system is strange to them.
 
Trouble is,you have to go to a VA facility to use it. I don't know that the Medicare and Medicaid systems are plagued with those problems are they? No more so than if you had private insurance or no insurance at all anyway.
 
Maybe if your Blue Cross premium was $1882 a month for yourself and your wife when both of you are in perfect health,and the policy was an 80/20 with an $4500 deductible and a $13,000 stop loss,you could shorten that time frame up a little.
 
And never forget, their system saves nothing as far as cost, it's just paid in taxes rather than insurance and fees. You would still be just as poor in the end. The money for thoise systems doesnt com e from magic or trees.
 
Nobody in the US dies from lack of insurance. There have always been systems in place to take care of folks without insurance. The problem was and still is that insurance costs have gotten too high.
 
No,but there's no deductible,no co-pay and no "Sorry,we don't cover that unless you're standing on your head in the northwest corner and your doctor is between the ages of 35 and 37 at the time you're treated.".

You can have what you think is good insurance here and still be bankrupted by all the co-pays and exclusions.
 
All these post about healthcare... It's your generation that let it get out of hand and it'll be my generation to bail it out or just can't afford it. Government in health care? It would be like welfare.. the people who don't pay get the benifits..
 
Have to take exception with this one, Jon. My best friend of many years died of just exactly that - lack of or wrong insurance. He was very seriously ill from complications of diabetes. He was just about forcibly dragged to the hospital for treatment. He was in the hospital for 27 days for his problem, and passed from department to department until it was too late for any further treatment. He could have been saved if he had gotten the correct treatment when he was admitted. Hospital staff did everything they could to avoid doing what really needed to be done to save his life. Finally, the doctor that knew what he would have needed came onto the scene to tell his wife and I that it was too late.

In simple terms, he died from lack of insurance. Plain and simple.
 
With my elderly mon, and dad how you get treated depends on who your insurance company is, and what plan you have. I had them change companies, and get a better plan a couple of years ago because of the same problems you are going through. The insurance is a lot better now, it costs a little more every month, but it sure saves on time (and all the headaches that their old insurance company "provided").
 
I do not have an answer to this issue. It is not my are of expertise by any means. I have realized for a number of years, we as individuals who purchase health insurance on our own, or the numerous employers who provide health insurance as a fringe benefit cannot continue down this path of substantial increases as we have seen. Our nation has been known as a nation of innovation, while other nations are able to duplicate/copy these practices and procedures, all while performing them at much lower costs. I read an article about "medical procedure vacations" and going to foreign countries to have medical procedures, due to the cost of having them here. On another note, I priced health insurance coverage for my family of 4 in western Minnesota on the Blue Cross of Minnesota website. A single provider network had premiums totaling close to $22,000 (as I recall) for 2017 and an individual deductible of $6550 (again, as I recall). That same plan and deductible was a third less in the Twin Cities metro. I had my kids covered on an individual plan for 10 years, because the cost for their plan was so much less versus adding them at my workplace. For 2018, I added them because the premiums and deductibles increased tremendously in the last three years.

I pulled up a clip of an article in the Star Tribune about Blue Cross Blue Shield of Minnesota based upon 2015 financial results. We can rant about the compensation of their CEO all we want. His compensation was on the order of $871,000 in 2014, with a bonus of $1.3 million. That is a tremendous amount of money, and I will question who is worth that kind of compensation. I did not look into his educational or professional background, but I also recognize the gross revenues of Blue Cross at that time was around $10.6 billion. With that, what is an appropriate compensation package for the CEO of a company of that size? What would be the minimum educational and experience required to even be qualified? I don't have the answer to that question.

If our nation were to move to socialized medicine, what are the negative repercussions? What are the "tax implications" to us as taxpayers. I read an article earlier this year. Citizens from 4 or 5 foreign nations were interviewed about their health care costs in those countries. Each one talked about a "free" or "no-cost" health care system. Not a single one even hinted at their own costs for this, based upon taxes imposed to cover the cost of their health care system. As my grandfather always said, "Nothing ever is truly free. Somebody has to pay the price." I think about this when one side talks the talk about providing free health care and free college education, along with other freebies.

I have read about some form of a "hybrid" single payer system, which is somewhere in between what we have here in this country, and the system in some of the European nations. From what I recall, this might provide a clue as to the direction we as a nation may need to go. It requires a certain degree of accountability by the participants, while controlling costs and financial exposure to the service providers as well as the participants. I had always envisioned coming back to the farm and leaving my job in town. The cost of healthcare and insurance prohibits that from happening, because the premiums have grown to be far from affordable!
 
My life is worth X but not 3X?

Yes some of us think that way.
No way I am having a million dollar surgery and having to sell the farm to live a extra year or two.
Even a cheap surgery is not wanted sometimes.
Like my mother had a pacemaker installed.
Saved her life.
One year later Alzheimer's set in and now we watch her lived locked in a house to protect her.

But this is a optional surgery we are talking about.
It is not life or death.
For $1000 I will get it done.
For $10,000 I will live with the itch.
Might even get it cut opened and drained but not removed.
 
(quoted from post at 12:01:43 12/30/17) Have to take exception with this one, Jon. My best friend of many years died of just exactly that - lack of or wrong insurance. He was very seriously ill from complications of diabetes. He was just about forcibly dragged to the hospital for treatment. He was in the hospital for 27 days for his problem, and passed from department to department until it was too late for any further treatment. He could have been saved if he had gotten the correct treatment when he was admitted. Hospital staff did everything they could to avoid doing what really needed to be done to save his life. Finally, the doctor that knew what he would have needed came onto the scene to tell his wife and I that it was too late.

In simple terms, he died from lack of insurance. Plain and simple.
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Sounds more like he died because he refused to go to the doctor and when he was forced to do so, it was too late.
 
In 1964, I had an ulcer and an acute appendix fixed with one operation. I was in the hospital 6 days, and had no insurance. The total bill, surgeons fee included, was less than a thousand dollars, $900 something. I paid it in a half dozen payments. As I recall, the room rate was $14 per day.

In 1968 I had an operation on my back to relieve an old Marine Corps injury. We had insurance by then, but as I recall the neurosurgeon's fee was $240. He told me ahead of time his fee would be whatever my insurance allowed.

Compare those to what goes on today.
 
my complaint with health care is that every time I go to a Dr. other than the family Dr that I go to every yr for a physical( just tries to get me on some kind of pill every yr) is that none of them can do a simple job like taking a piece of steel out of my hand [From a cold chisel} with out getting all their buddies and a physical therapist in on the job, and then they even get my regular Dr. in on the action also by having me go to him for a follow up. I have a couple pieces that I have to go in for on Tues so they'll have a party with them, the pieces seem to be surfacing from many yrs ago when I was young and foolish.no gloves. last yr, he took a BB out of my hand that had been there for yrs.
 
"There have always been systems in place to take care of folks without insurance."

Like "They have to treat you whether you have insurance or not."? What a joke. Try using that system. You'll be hounded by collection agencies and lawyers for the rest of your life. Eventually you'll be sued for everything you own and you'll never be able to have anything in your own name again,or they'll sue you for that too.

All this rhetoric sure sound good when the right people say it though doesn't it?
 
Not that I have a dog in this fight, but.....it works both ways. I knew a guy who had surgery in the VA hospital and they killed him because they didn't do a few tests on him ahead of time. In the end, they admitted that had he had surgery anywhere else, he would have come through with no problems. The VA system is a form of government healthcare, isn't it? (I should know. My wife is a computer programmer that supports the VA healthcare system)
 
I think all you have to do is look around at the rest of the ENTIRE free world and see what they're doing if you really want an answer. gm
 
But over there you would not likely have had anything to loose because the excessive tax bill would have kept you poor all along.
 
A year ago I had a cysts the size of a baseball removed from my chest. It was done as out patient and was on my way home in an hour and a half. The total cost of this surgery was $17,000.00 and I paid nothing. Between Medicare and my insurance they picked up every thing. The only thing was Doc told me 2 stitches and ended up with 16 and doc said it was bigger than they thought it was.
 
It's also a conservative and Libertarian org.
You can find trash on anyone online anymore.
I'll take the guys with experience any day. gm
 
Exactly! Go to a doctor and they tell you "Well,this is a little high,I'm going to give you a prescription for that. Come and see me again in 6 weeks.". You go back and that drug has caused another problem,so you need two more prescriptions to take care of the side effects. It's a domino effect until you end up like my hypochondriac father in law was. He'd come here with a canvas Wal Mart bag heaped so full of pill bottles that he couldn't close the top of it. Then he'd sit here for half an hour every morning while his wife lined up pills on the table for him to take.
No thanks. I'm not getting on that train.
 
Well,Thoger makes $75,000 a year US equivalent and travels the world on hunting and fishing trips and competing in shooting competitions. If that's poverty,I'm in.
Again,I'm getting this straight from the horses mouth,not from articles or hearsay.
 
So what, folks here make that much too, can't see the relavance there. The average standard of living is lower, including health care costs.
 
Other countries only somewhat re-create our healthcare, cheaper. They typically do not have all of the huge tort awards, cost of resources, environmental, regulations and the host of other things most folks do not even think about that add to the huge cost of doing business in the US.

Say you are an ER physician and a patient presents with a headache. You order lab-work and other tests. Do you order a CT of the head? You do and they have a pinched nerve, you are ordering tests that are not needed nor will you be paid for your time or the several or dozens of people needed for you to have that test or the 1.5 million dollar machine that was used, You are left with ordering unneeded tests to "raise your income and your a greedy SOB". Then of course you have the one patient out of many that come in with a headache, you do not order the CT and they have a brain bleed. They have a stroke/aneurysm the next day and you are being sued and hauled over the review board because you did not order a CT for their head ache. And of course it is because they were poor or had garbage insurance........

CT companies charge about $350-$450 or more per hour for service. An x-ray tube that breaks, or just wears out after a number of studies is $30,000 or $40,000. A tech spilled a coke in a keyboard on a CT machine a number of years ago. The new keyboard was $20,000. Much of the equipment in a hospital is FDA regulated. If you use a part that is the same, you voided that approval and could be facing serious liability issues.

A "regular" computer is in an ultrasound machine. The video card goes out and you can buy one on Amazon all day long for $50. The manufacturer of the FDA regulated equipment wants $5,000. It is not just greed on their side, they had to spend large sums of money and years or a decade getting FDA approval after many highly educated people designed the equipment and they have to build that money into the cost as well as the myriad of other costs that are a part of the US market.

If you use that video card from Amazon and a something happens with a diagnosis or treatment of a patient and you are sued, the attorney finds out and you have a big lottery payout for the attorney and patient, even though it may not have been a factor.

I have jumped around a bit, there is a lot to all of this. The chickens are coming home to roost, actions, regulations all have consequences. Re-publicans and dem-ocrats are two sides of the same coin, all the while the American people ignore politics and go on with their lives, thinking the vain and power hungry that seek office will do the right thing. Most did not and that continues. The fault is multi-generational.
 
It's your opinion that their standard of living is lower. I don't know that there's a person living there who would agree with you. Even their infrastructure there puts ours totally to shame. They've traded some of what we think is freedom,for a higher standard of living. It's Sweden,not the Soviet Union.

Before anybody gets ticked and starts slinging mud and asks me why I don't move there,I'll preempt it by saying that I've looked in to it. Why wouldn't I ask questions,right?

Since I can easily prove lineage,I can get a long term visa that would allow me to live out my life there,and that visa would allow me in to their health care system. However,I couldn't buy in to their social security system,so the only way I could live there would be to sell out here for enough money to live on over there for the rest of my life. I couldn't even sell out for enough to live on here in this country for the rest of my life without a social security check.

So that answered that question before anybody even ran off the rails and asked it.

And don't forget,they have internet there too so I could still be a thorn in everybody's side,even from there. LOL
 
It's not opinion, it's fact. I especially like the purchasing power graph as that tells what you can buy and keep comparatively.
a252061.jpg

a252062.jpg
 
Take your second graph from 2012. What at we getting for our dollar? Health care? Good infrastructure? I don't think so. They pay about 50% in taxes. What do we really pay? Not just the deductions that show up on a paycheck,but include all the taxes that business' pay to employ us. Half of the SS contribution,unemployment,workers comp,etc etc etc. What do we get for our taxes?

I'm done with this discussion because I don't want to start sounding like an unpatriotic socialist,but we have some serious problems in this country that aren't ever going to be solved by wrapping ourselves in the flag and beating each other to death with the flag pole.

Everywhere else in our personal lives,if we're doing something that's not working and we look over the fence and see that the neighbor is doing something right and thriving from it,we have the good sense to recognize that maybe we need to pay a little more attention to how they're doing it. Throw politics in to it though and all of a sudden,it's just not the "American way".
 
Wrong again Jon! Most developed countries pay less than half of what we do and their life expectancy is 2 years longer! That is the total cost, whether it be taxes or whatever, they know what their health care costs.
 
I would like to se a chart comparing who gets what out of every health care dollar spent. Perhaps it does exist somewhere. I can imagine that the Insurance industry portion is quite significant. If that is so, imagine what your personal cost would be without that middleman. Yes you income taxes would be higher, but would they be as high as the insurance Company share? Something to ponder over, (if you have an open mind).
 
(quoted from post at 14:01:58 12/30/17) [color=blue:59dd2f1b31]I would like to se a chart comparing who gets what out of every health care dollar spent.[/color:59dd2f1b31] Perhaps it does exist somewhere. I can imagine that the Insurance industry portion is quite significant. If that is so, imagine what your personal cost would be without that middleman. Yes you income taxes would be higher, but would they be as high as the insurance Company share? Something to ponder over, (if you have an open mind).
Click to expand...
Me too! I've seen doctor bills where insurance actually lists that the doctor is "expected" to pay over half the cost of the charges. ...Wait, what's that again?? ---- Doctors are "expected" to pay over 50% of their own charges!!

What kind of logic is this??

Used to be you could get a discount if paying cash. Now they don't even want checks. Used to be you could get lower costs by paying out-of-pocket and not having insurance. Now, [b:59dd2f1b31]all[/b:59dd2f1b31] the prices are high! (that one's for you, Crazy Horse. *grin*) *lol*
 

I did not read all the post I will say this...

All insurance pay outs are based on Medicare pay out schedules no matter the age of the patient... Providers contract out to the insurance co and take what the medicare schedules pay. To get the providers to play along with insurance co the providers have free range to get all they can from the patient.. At age 65 you have some protection until then you are a open season hunt..

Co-pays have no value other than to give the providers free range to go after your pocketbook for all they can get and then some... Its there gift for playing the insurance co game.

That's why there is no competition they all get paid the same That's why the insurance co will not tell you were the best deal is at.

My local surgeon has done several surgeries at his office the bill was $500 both times with a $10 co-pay... Both times they bill me $490 as uninsured if I am uninsured how do they know I have a co-pay of $10.... I spec when the EOB comes in BCBS will pay him about haft of that until then they are hoping I am stupid enoufh to pay the 490.
 
Tractor & auto mechanics have to fix their mistakes free of charge.

Doctors get to bury their mistakes !
 
Are your elderly parents on Medicare? If so you must be referring to the supplemental insurance. All supplemental letter plans are the same regardless of the insurance company as are the premiums. All regulated be Medicare.
 
Whow, This just what we need, more programmers violating the Federal Privacy Act. How would you like it if some programmer give someone information out of your medicals records. It does not make any difference if your her husband or any other member of the family.!!!!
 
(quoted from post at 18:35:00 12/30/17) Tractor & auto mechanics have to fix their mistakes free of charge.

Doctors get to bury their mistakes !
Click to expand...

and Land Surveyor put theirs on record till the end of time
 
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