Removing front wheel spindles

foxsprings · Aug 4, 2017

Hi, I'm new to posting here, but have lurked a while.

I have 1979 MF 20C (the industrial one) with FEL. Recently, the range of turning has been progressively decreasing since the tractor sat for several months. Yesterday after a loud clunk, I have no steering while stationary, and minimal while moving.

I have started to go through all the steering, I have disconnected the tie rods & relay rod and the cylinders appear to be extending and retracting as they should. All the tie rod ends/heim joints are toast, but don't seem to be what is causing the problem.

Once I jacked the front up and disconnected everything, I found that both spindles appear to be solid and won't rotate. reconnecting a cylinder gives me a little movement, but not much.

So, I embarked on dropping the spindles in the hopes of either cleaning everything up or replacing the bushings. The problem is that I cannot get them out. I have pounded with a sledgehammer and got them about a third of the way out, but now the top of the spindle is level with the pivot tube, I can't go any further.

I feel like the amount of force I'm having to use is unreasonable. Everything else on this tractor moves freely. Am I missing something, or should I persevere with more pounding until I get them out? Any advice gladly accepted!

Picture here:

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foxsprings · Aug 4, 2017

I should add that before the top of the spindle got too low, I took a grinder and cleaned up where the sledgehammer had mad a mushroom of the head, so its not that the top of the spindle won't pass through the top bushing, the entire thing has taken way too much force to move at all.

BobReeves · Aug 4, 2017

considering what it would take to pull the whole front end so you could get it to a press. I would put together a makeshift press using a hydraulic jack, chain, steel rod and whatever else it takes to press that axel out. Looks like it hasn't been lubed in like forever, use plenty of PB Blaster.

Oliver 500 Wa · Aug 4, 2017

......Am I missing something.....

About 30 years worth of greasing.

If you are sure you ground off all the mushroomed part of the shaft ( even a small amount missed will make it impossible to get them out) then you might try some heat along with some Kroil or other penetrating lube.

BobReeves · Aug 4, 2017

And I agree with Oliver, you really need to make sure you haven't left any boogers on that shaft at all. Needless to say you should not have used the hammer in the first place but we all must learn.

If you can cut and weld make a portable press to force that spindle out. That is the only way you are going to get it out without ending up in a big mess.

If building a press is beyond your resources you will have to remove the whole front end and take it to a shop with a press.

Heat will help but beating on it more will just make your job harder if not impossible.

KL in Wi · Aug 4, 2017

I would take some emery cloth and clean up the bottom of the spindle that is sticking out then I would spray a bunch of penetrating oil in the top and then some up the bottom and try to force the spindle back up to the original position. Then more oil on top. Try to work it loose by turning it then, try pounding it down again. Keep repeating that process until it comes out. May take some time but eventually it should come out.

bjb in TX from Ne · Aug 4, 2017

From a safety standpoint that jack stand looks a bit light, especially if you are beating down with a hammer. Get that front blocked up with some good wood (NEVER concrete) cribbing.

Graham of New Zealand · Aug 4, 2017

It's absolutely amazing how much a rusted up, dry dust accumulated, shaft can lock up. Just pushing and hammering may well just lock it up even more. As said previously if you can't arrange pressing, clean up what is out, grease it, soak some light oil or diesel down the top and push it back up again. Putting a block under it and letting the axle down may do it or maybe a little judicious hammering on the axle on a block of wood to save damage. Then repeat the whole process as long as it takes. rotating the spindle a little too helps a lot. Before you put it all together replace the grease nipple that must have been knocked off. If necessary drill and tap for a new one (or two, top and bottom bushes).

ss55 · Aug 4, 2017

Most older spindles are dripping grease out the bottom and are sloppy-loose from wear. That one is very dry. At this point I would try to clean off the rust on the exposed spindle (emery cloth), grease it up well and put it back together. Try to work the spindle back and forth without the tie rod connected and it should free up. Repeat on the other side. Hopefully the clunk was only a broken tie rod end (cheap to replace).

As others have mentioned, for safety put some substantial wooden cribbing under the axle to support the tractor, don't use cinder/cement blocks as they can crumble without warning.

Adirondack case guy · Aug 4, 2017

He isn't holding up a railroad locomotive. It looks to be a HF 3Ton jack stand. Plenty enough for one side of a front axle.

Steve@Advance · Aug 4, 2017

How hard would it be to get the axle out?

Beside getting the spindles out, once the new bushings are in, they will have to be reamed to size. Something better left to a shop equipped to ream them.

Traditional Farmer · Aug 4, 2017

I would fill the cavity with a good penetrating oil and let it soak awhile and then set the bottom of the spindle on a block of wood and drive the spindle back up into the housing a little at the time and keep adding oil.then put some type of leverage on the hub to twist the spindle back and forth until it gets loose then knock it back down a little at the time and keep twisting the spindle to keep it loose and let the oil do its work.

Leroy · Aug 4, 2017

Common problem on other machinery as well, espesially wagons and some have required the spindle housing to be split like with a cutoff disk on an angle grinder to allow it to spread out enough to loosen the spindle to press out. After you get it out use a round wire brush in a drill to clean inside of housing and also clean spindle completely Upon reassembly coat all parts with a real stickey grease as you put it together and after you get it together pump all the grease in you can with no weight on spindle as that will keep the grease from reaching the bottom but will come out the top. You will find the thrust bearing on the bottom of the spindle will be shot as well.

shredderboy · Aug 4, 2017

Polish what's exposed. Lubricate. Push back in. Repeat. Use a good penetrating oil. Keep repeating this and eventually you will have the entire spindle lubed to the point that it will extract. Clean it, lube it and reinstall. Also, make sure to remove grease zerks when the spindle is out and clean the hole. Wouldn't hurt to put a new zerk in also.

K Effective · Aug 4, 2017

I have rehabbed three running gear with the split-it method. One thin slice top to bottom made all the difference.

37chief · Aug 4, 2017

It's going to be hard to get it back up again. Like others have mentioned use some penetrating oil. It would be good to rotate it, but that may not be possible now. If that doesn't work then try to punch it the rest of the way out. Stan

foxsprings · Aug 4, 2017

Thanks for the responses they have been very helpful. Most importantly it doesn't seem as though I've missed something basic, like a notch, or taper or some other trick like they will only rotate when there is weight on the wheels.

I will clean what I can and keep loading up with penetrating fluid then. I like the idea of a press made from a loop of chain & porta power, so I'll try that and see if I can get them to return the other way and keep working them. I'll see if I can rig something to rotate them as well, not sure on that one yet though!

Regarding the safety of the jack stands; point taken, I will do better. It was one of those things though that looked like it should be fairly simple and quick. I got progressively deeper and didn't stop to consider them. However they are only really taking a part of the load, the front loader bucket is taking most of the weight and is how I "jacked" it up in the first place, so it can't go too far.

JMS/.MN · Aug 4, 2017

The problem with those stands is that moving the toggle a bit can let the jack down. If it"s pinned in place it"s ok.

I made several blocks out of 5x6 poles...cut to 16 inches. Four of them, bolted (not lagged) together, gives me a block of 10x12x16 inches. Bolts are 3/8 redi-bolt, countersunk in the wood. Extremely sturdy and safe.

Kickinbull · Aug 4, 2017

Use Hagen' brew. Acetone and ATF

Case Nutty 1660 · Aug 4, 2017

I agree to getting some lube to help them move, I ave ran into one on a Farmall "M" I had a heck of time with too, the spindle shaft was bent I found when I got it apart, I have no idea how it got that way but it was a TIGHT was the word might not be your issue just throwing outwhat I have seen
cnt

foxsprings · Aug 4, 2017

This makes me think. When it all finally came to a head I was moving some heavy buckets of dirt, the tractor was really taking a beating.
Which is more likely to happen first, bending the spindles in the pivot tubes, or breaking the hub off the spindle?

K Effective · Aug 4, 2017

I snapped the hub off of the spindle on a JD 2630 while pulling scrub from an overgrown fence. Hard to imagine how to bend one inside the tube, but I am sure it is possible.

BobReeves · Aug 4, 2017

(quoted from post at 10:17:47 08/04/17) The problem with those stands is that moving the toggle a bit can let the jack down. If it"s pinned in place it"s ok.

I made several blocks out of 5x6 poles...cut to 16 inches. Four of them, bolted (not lagged) together, gives me a block of 10x12x16 inches. Bolts are 3/8 redi-bolt, countersunk in the wood. Extremely sturdy and safe.

Not questioning the safety of your wood blocks but those jack stands are pretty robust. To release one the handle has to move the jack up before the catch will release. This means you would have to actually pick up whatever weight is on the stand with that little handle before it will release.

Case Nutty 1660 · Aug 4, 2017

they will bend first then break, does not take much of a bend to make them TIGHT in the axle tube bore
cnt

Case Nutty 1660 · Aug 4, 2017

Not sure how they do it as I have not bent one myself there only fixed them, the ones I seen it on was on "M" Farmalls with wide fronts that had spent years on Farmhand duty I have seen Case ones bend on the hub side below the axle tubes, and have seen the upright shaft through the ale tubes be twisted also those can happen if a tie rod lets go and the wheel turns 90 degrees while you are moving
cnt

SDE · Aug 4, 2017

I have fixed wagon spindles just like Bob R said he did. If you have a welder, fabricate a frame that will allow you to mount a hydraulic jack over the tube. Put a short shaft over the vertical spindle and put down pressure against it with the jack. After it has move some, remove the short shaft and add a longer shaft.Repeat the process until the spindle is out. I have always used a chain instead of a frame, but it does not always work out very well and then you need to pick up the pieces and start over. From a safety stand point, I would not advocate the use of a chain. It is a do as I say, not as I do, sort of thing.
SDE

foxsprings · Aug 4, 2017

I thought I'd add an update.

I used the "chain for a press" idea, and I have one side out (hooray). As you can see I used the loader as a pressure point and the chain just to bind the loader to the axle. The first side was fairly uneventful. When the rust finally let go it so did so with a BANG, but came out easily after that.

The other side however is a different story. Near the limit of my 10 ton porta power it doesn't budge. I reversed the setup and pulled the spindle back in the half inch or so I previously hammered it out, and it popped back in ok. I cleaned what I could and soaked in PB again, and tried to press it out. It has again come out the same half inch or so, but will not go any further. I've actually bent one of the extensions on the porta power with the pressure.

I guess all I can do is keep working it in and out.

BobReeves · Aug 5, 2017

I would guess you have done more damage to that axle you were beating on than you have corrected. Really doesn't take much of a ding to make it impossible to clear the bushings. That shaft could be mushroomed below where you did the actual damage. Clean it up and make a few measurements with a good set of calipers or micrometer, grind away anything larger than your smallest reading. Even a couple thousands can cause trouble in some situations.

I learned this the hard way with a fan motor years ago. What should have been a 15 minute job with a puller turned into a 6 hour ordeal by a hammer.

jokers · Aug 5, 2017

Try rapping the outside of the spindle tube with a 3 or 4 pound hammer when you have hydraulic pressure on the spindle itself. This of course after you have thoroughly lubed the spindle with a good penetrating oil like Kroil or PB, no WD-40. You may also have luck hammering the outside of the tube with a good air hammer while pressure is applied to the spindle. Be careful though because if it breaks loose it my become a projectile. A few other things you can try before slicing the tube are heating the tube as uniformly as possible, hot enough to melt some parafin around the spindle, fabricating an air fitting to apply steady pressure to the top of the tube for a couple of days after filling it with penetrating oil, to drive the oil in, or turning the spindle with a 3' pipe wrench and cheater. I've used all of these methods and been fairly successful at breaking abused equipment free without causing more damage though your mileage may vary. I hope that you update us when you get it freed.

foxsprings · Aug 7, 2017

I thought I'd add an update. I finally managed to remove the other side. Using the loader as a pressure point didn't work, it made the porta power too long and the pressure buckled one of the extensions. Instead kept it as short as possible and used 3 loops of chain (grade 70 hauling chain).
I was right at the limit of my ability to compress the porta power when it finally let go. As always, once it let go it came out fairly easily.

A couple of things I noticed:

1. The bearing that sits between the spindle & the tube was reduced to little more than a pair of fender washers on one side, the other side had some remnants of the ball bearings left, but nothing that would actually roll. I have ordered a replacement set with seals.

2. I think the root cause of all this trouble is that the hole for the grease zerk does not go all the way through the pivot tube. It goes through the outside casing, but not the inner liner, so i think it would be impossible to grease properly. I can only imagine that the liners have been replaced at some point, and someone didn't do a great job of it. So the next step (once everything is cleaned up) is to drill all the way through so the grease can get between the spindle & the tube.

As best I can tell the spindles are still straight and although they have significant wear in a few spots, I intend to re-use them.

Thanks as always for the input!

BobReeves · Aug 7, 2017

Good going, happy it worked out..

foxsprings · Aug 12, 2017

Final update; I cleaned up the spindles and tubes, put new bearings and dust seals and reassembled. There is a lot of play but I decided not to put the new bushings in, I just don't have the facility to do that and it's not a heavily used tractor so I figure this arrangement will last me quite a few years.

Many thanks for all the input!

Removing front wheel spindles

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