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PT 109 Sunk 8/2/43

Ultradog MN

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member
Location
Twin Cities
I suppose there will always be some controversy whether Kennedy was a good commander or a lax one and whether he should have been court marshalled for losing his boat or not. I will leave that to others to sort out.
What is indisputable about the whole event is that Kennedy's actions after the sinking were those of a hero.
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PT 109
 
IIRC the cause, if you want to call it that, was that while the engines were idling the drive was not in gear. If it was they may have had the few seconds they needed, in the pitch darkness, to move out of the way. It's not as though these vessels had marker lights on. I think it is tough to second guess peoples actions under combat conditions.
 

He did well considering the circumstances. But he would never have been court martialed. Daddy was too big, too important, too influential. Wasn't the first collision he was involved in BTW!
 
You can add police officers to "under combat conditions", and add "in a split second" to that! Nobody has the right to second guess what "they" would do/would have done under like circumstances!
 
My first class in the Navy. Was in the same squadron as the 109. Always told us Kennedy was the normal officer screw up. No better or worse than the rest. Said his father did try and get his orders changed. But Kennedy refused to go along with it. There were several hot talks about it at the command shack. One thing most don't understand. The sea at night with clouds over head. Can get very dark. So dark you can't see a foot in front of you. Cover your eyes with your hand close your eyes. That is how dark it is. The commander of the destroyer even said they didn't even know the 109 was there. Until they hit it and only then because of the burning fuel.
 
Totally agree - anyone that wants to second guess those kinds of decisions should be shot at once - might change their mind.
 
Or perhaps had a watch posted? The Japanese destroyer did not "accidently" collide with PT 109, they spotted it, changed course and ran it down.
 
bill what i can't figure out if they were patrolling the strait WTH were they out there for in the first place.
i mean so dark they couldn't see their hand in front of their face, so they decided to go out in the middle channel and wait for something to come by that they couldn't see ??
it was well known that there was heavy enemy traffic in that strait my guess is they were out yukking it up and didn't hear that ship bearing down on them and yes sound travels easily on the water BTDT.
common pratice for torpedo boats while waiting to ambush is to blend in with the back ground to disguise your silhouette, not waiting in the middle of the channel for the first destroyer to come along and slice you in half.
 
to bad John did not teach little brother Teddy to swim,Mary Jo may have made it out of the bay.
 
I have thought about that many times over the years. I have been to sea when the moon was out or the stars were out. Plenty of light. But with clouds out you couldn't see a thing. So if you can't see them and they can't see you. Why go out.
 
You gotta be kidding. South Pacific? 80 plus degrees and fog? Kennedy and his boys were sleeping. Jap destroyer ran them over. Story after that is survival and agreeing to stick to it making a hero and CYA.
 
"...[M]y guess is they were out yukking it up and didn't hear that ship bearing down on them....

Bingo.

Dean
 
I'm kinda glad Teddy didn't drive a VW,It woulda floated,Mary Jo woulda lived,and Teddy woulda been president, Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The sailor manning the helm of the Japanese destroyer remembered the incident, their watch officers warned them about the PT boat and directed a course change to ensure they hit it. If they could spot an 80' long PT boat that wasn't moving one would think the PT boat watch could spot a 360' long ship moving at 25 knots. The claim that the destroyer was moving at 40 knots was a joke - that class of ships only attained 38 knots during sea trials when the ship was brand new in 1930. 13 years later after being at sea for months with tons of additional weight added to the ship in the form of added on AA and ASW equipment the idea they would could even attain their original top speed - much be cruising at top speed is a joke.
 
Kennedy's own brother wrote him a letter asking how he managed to get his ship run over by one of the very ships they were supposed to be watching for. Its a bit like the worker we had that was supposed to build a railing around a hole so no one would fall into it, while installing the railing he fell into the hole.
 
Mary Jo said to Teddy---I am late, what should we do? Teddy said-we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.---Tee
 
Just finished "At Close Quarters" by Robert J. Bulkley. Heartily recommend it. Covers PTs throughout the war in depth.
 
I could be wrong about who saw who. Been wrong before. But I agree an old destroyer moving that fast would be hard to believe. Of course we will never know what really happened.
 
Yes fog at that temperature is possible. I have been in Chicago, IL in the summer time and there was fog near the lake. It's all about the dew point.

OTJ
 
I read that Teddy had to going 90 mph when they hit the water, because it would have taken that much force to get her nnalert off her and into the glove compartment.
 


I never got into the whole "Kennedy Mystique" thing. Fact is that while photogenic and an inspiring speaker, he bungled as much as he got things right. As far as Bobby, outside of his speech right after MLK got killed, he was a disaster. And now we find out Teddy wrote to the Kremlin asking for help in overthrowing Reagan!

I just don't get it. If daddy hadn't pushed the "hero" thing and paved the way with oodles of money, there would be no legacy. Martyrdom just cemented it.
 

He could have used his daddys influence and piloted a desk through the war, but he piloted a torpedo boat instead. He could have saved his own skin and swam to safety, but he tended to his men instead. Sure, he was not perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but he served. You guys sure are quick to run him down. And what does Teddy have to do with anything in this thread? It was about PT109 sinking, which wouldn't even be a footnote in history if the skipper didn't become president. How many more torpedo boats sank without so much as a mention?

OTOH, our current golfer in chief had "bone spurs" and couldn't serve in Vietnam, even joked about how STDs were his own personal Vietnam. The only person he's ever served was himself, up to, including, and especially as Prez.
 
Them destroyers had stealth mode back in the day. It was coasting down hill and the engines were turned off.
That fog on a 80 plus degree flat, excuse me, sloped ocean helped them sneak up on it. That's why Mary Jo couldn't swim out of the bay also, because it was sloped.
 
(quoted from post at 10:02:25 08/03/17)
He could have used his daddys influence and piloted a desk through the war, but he piloted a torpedo boat instead. He could have saved his own skin and swam to safety, but he tended to his men instead. Sure, he was not perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but he served. You guys sure are quick to run him down. And what does Teddy have to do with anything in this thread? It was about PT109 sinking, which wouldn't even be a footnote in history if the skipper didn't become president. How many more torpedo boats sank without so much as a mention?

OTOH, our current golfer in chief had "bone spurs" and couldn't serve in Vietnam, even joked about how STDs were his own personal Vietnam. The only person he's ever served was himself, up to, including, and especially as Prez.
Click to expand...

Lots of guys could have sat out the wars over the years and didn't. Doesn't make them heroes. JFK did what ANY junior officer (and also any Non-Com) was supposed to do as far as taking charge and looking after his men. It wasn't heroic until the whole politics/Profiles in Courage thing got under way after the war. IIRC George HW Bush was at one time the youngest Naval Aviator to serve and was shot down in action. He flew 58 combat missions. Was he more or less a "hero" than JFK? And lets not forget that Kennedys good friend (whom he would later appoint to the Supreme Court!) Byron White helped write the investigation report regarding JFKs actions in letting his boat be run down. It was war, things happen. Not every hero is recognized and anyone who's served in any military or para military unit can attest that some heroes...aren't. IMO the whole thing was simply an accident that didn't turn out as bad as it could have, JFK did what anyone in his position would be expected to do and that he was lucky not to have been Court Martialed.
 
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