Road Maintenance Causing Issues

Not wanting to stir up too much trouble, but I'm looking for some people who know more than I do to help answer a question. Here in western New York, an unbelievable amount of salt/brine is used on the roads in the winter to take care of the snow. The problem is that is causes all kinds of problems with rust for any motorized vehicle (car, truck, tractor, or whatever). Most vehicles are eaten through well before the engines or other parts break down through planned obsolescence. (another point of contention) Also the roads are full of potholes big enough to swallow some of the vehicles. Any good suggestions other than to move... in terms of effective ways to deal with the snow?

I lived in central NY for 40 years. Besides all the road-salt in the winter, my road got salted in the summer too. Same here in northern Michigan. I have no doubt some regs or laws are being violated as to pollution. It is likely near impossible to enforce any of it though. Besides cars and trucks rotting out in 10-15 years, some private water-wells have also been ruined from road-salt. Most roads in New York are privately owned and towns and counties only have narrow right-of-ways for use as public highways. Also rights of maintenance. No rights of spreading pollution beyond that right-of-way and they obviously do it.

I don't have a workable solution I'm afraid. I do know we are using a lot more salt than 40 years ago when I was first driving, mainly I believe due to liability. 25 years ago a "track bare" hard top road was good enough to run on and we rarely if ever saw salt on our gravel roads. I guess our society wants July like roads all year round. I think the auto makers love salt as it keeps their factories busy pushing out new vehicles to replace the salt eaten ones.
What I can't get over is that the environmentalists haven't jumped all over this. Soon it will be illegal to apply manure to our fields in the winter. I am all for protecting the Great Lakes but where does this salt all end up?

Rust accelerates as temperatures rise. Salt gets on vehicles in the Winter, but most of the rusting happens in the Summer. A good time to rinse salt off the bottom side of vehicles is right after spring rains have washed all the salt off the roads. That get rid of the salt before the temperatures rise. Beware of using the under-body rinse in car washes in early Spring, most car washes recirculate water, so the water is salty. Wait an extra month for the salt to clear out before using the under-body rinse in Spring.

You can wash the underside of your car/truck , lay a soaker hose on the drive way , drive over the hose , and let the water spray up to the underside of your ride.

There are more unskilled, distracted, fatigued, medicated, and ill drivers that don't have any business being behind the wheel now than ever, and it's only getting worse. These people can't drive on dry pavement let alone snow, but rather than get them off the road, the state/county/town governments spread salt.

I would say the vast majority these days, of ALL ages, have no clue how to drive when it's at all slippery. You can see this especially on the first snowy day in late fall, and if it's been a couple weeks since the last significant snowfall. Cars in the ditches, everywhere. It looks like the highway scene from any apocalyptic movie.

Convince the powers to use better plows, and crushed gravel/sand on the roads. Colorado uses it and has an equal or greater snow/freezing issue. Pollution of the lakes and rivers with brine is a sure way to fail in taking care of the planet. Pour salt on your lawn in a pattern of a smiley face. When that brine enters the surface water, you drink it and pump it on your fields. Nasty. Jim

I was hoping to hear from some other snowy state friends! I agree that NY could learn from others who also deal with snow issues...but don't feel the need for brine/salt solutions. I believe PA uses a similar process to yours and I doubt the accident rate is any higher than in NY. I appreciate the thoughts.

North Dakota uses a brine made of Peach juice if I remember correctly, not joking. This is last couple of years.

I spray (read douse liberally) my truck with a mix of bar and chain oil and new cooking oil. Hit it every place you can see on the underside drill the doors and door post and put the sprayer in there for a five count. This mix spreads all over and is very sticky. I live on a dirt road for 12 years until it was tar and chipped last year. Truck has a minimal amount of rust. This is in Erie county PA,we get a bunch of snow and there is brine and salt used like crazy. The dirt roads get brine for dust control in summer. You gotta be on top of your own car the gubmint​ isn't going to stop the salt trucks.

I am western new Yorker also. S.wales,NY. I know exactly what you mean. Seems like many of our roads are over salted. I agree there has to be a better alternative. I also think some of the conditions we have here are sort of unique. With 15 one day to 35 the next and then back to 10 probably makes it a little more tricky than if it was just cold or just above freezing during the day. I find that after heavy salting it is harder to drive through the slushy stuff than it is if they did nothing. I live on a county road and at times with anticipated snow coming the plows are out dumping salt on dry, bare roads. When go to work if we do have snow my road is usually not plowed in the am. I also.work for a large private road construction company and have been in the field about 20 years. What I can tell you about potholes is they are just a product of the freezing and thawing cycle. So many around now compared to years ago is because the county and the state don't want to spend the money to fix them right.usually just a quick pave job and on to the next. Called overlays with no other drainage work or anything else done to fix the underlying problem. In two years you have the same road all over again. Where abouts are you at ?

They have been salting us here in R.I. for years, welcome to the rust club.

New York began what it called the "Clear Road Program" back when Mario Cuomo was governor. Salt use got greatly increased. Now? If someone drives 60 MPH on ice and crashes - they want to sue because the "road is unsafe." No matter how well or poorly the roads are maintained, people tend to drive at their own perceived risk level. Make them think the roads are kept safer and they drive even more like idiots.

Salt brine and raw salt is used all over here in Maine.The road from here to nearest town is 10 miles and is one big pothole. it uhas about twenty bump signs on it.The state doesn't fix our roads they pave them over every 2-3 yrs at 1million per mile and do it ALL OVER AGAIN IN ANOTHER 2-3 years. Hoss

The salt is a job creator but the bridges are the BIG? Here in IL, the bridges get a double coating. Salt water makes a great base for roads but not a caoting. In Iowa in the 60s they used salt and sand because of the low temps, half the salt. The only way to avoid it would be to live away fron snow, say HI.

It's about commerce: snowy or slippery roads slow down traffic, which slows down the 'speed of money', which affects the economy, which decreases tax revenues that the gov is increasingly desperate for.

Salt increases not just the speed at which people and goods can move in winter, but increases the need for replacement vehicles and more extensive road work. Salt plays hell not just with steel, but with concrete.

The solution I'm working toward, is to stay home from first snowfall to about the third spring rain.


Side note: interesting to see so many "neighbors" here.
@300jk, our Boer buck goat came from folks in S Wales that make goat milk soap; regularly get oranges from Thorpe's, both in your neck of the woods.

It's down here in the sunny warm south as well.Back in the 50's 60's they never used salt. Now at the first thought of that dreaded four letter word, the brine trucks hit the roads spraying their corrosive crap. If it weren't the government but instead private industry spreading that much corrosive stuff the epa would be all over them.

I work at a body shop and yes this stuff is rusting everything. Already seeing rust on '15 and '16 Ram and GM box sides. Here in South Dakota they spray calcium chloride! This is the stuff that rusts out tractor rims imagine what it does to sheet metal.

I work for a road department. Most everyone here has the right idea. Let me put it in simple terms. People drive like total idiots. If they can't drive 75 mph in a snowstorm, they are ticked. They call anyone they can to complain that the roads are icy, even if they know they live in MI. If they go in the ditch while driving 75 on ice, and I'm trying to do my job, but stop to see if they're OK, they aren't scared, they're furious, they didn't have time to be in the ditch, and why wasn't there salt down before they got there. When I go to ask someone if they are OK and come at me with that, I won't say another word, I just turn around, get in my truck and drive away. It's not the farmers and country living type people, they are the only cautious winter drivers. It's the people from the cities, no matter what size, on their way to somewhere. The highways are full of them, and so are the paved back roads. And when the road is slippery, the call, they all call, wanting the road salted, and unfortunately they outnumber the cautious drivers 10-1. The road departments can't win, you have all these idiots calling in wanting ice free roads in the middle of a storm, and in the ditch, and once you get a pile of cars in the ditch, even the law enforcement is asking for salt to prevent idiots from sliding off into one of their officers attending one of the previous slide offs, and the LEO is sick of people chewing on him for the #*$#!*?^& roads being icy when it shouldn't have been (in winter, in MI). Then to further make things fun, people will and do try to sue the road departments if they wreck on an icy road. Not sure if they are ever successful, but it still costs money to defend themselves. If you are driving on a public road, it should automatically be assumed you are driving it at your own risk, cautious or not. The county to the south of me is being sued for a tree on a roadside that fell on a car driving down the road. Most people would freak out if you told them you were going to cut every tree in their yard back to the right of way. The county I work for was successfully sued for the value of a walnut tree we cut out of our ROW in a yard. But as soon as that tree that a homeowner didn't want cut falls in the road, guess what, it's not their tree anymore, it's ours, and we get to take care of it now that it's on the ground. Just like the roads, everyone is happy to use them, but every time a millage is asked to help pay to maintain it, everyone votes no, then complains about the road. The cost of all road materials has doubled to quadrupled over the last 10-15 years, making less materials the same amount of cost for ever increasing roads and traffic. Salt doesn't cause potholes, frost coming out of the road bed does, and water in,on,under the road does. And people that drive through the small potholes full of water make then bigger, on pavement and gravel. The biggest problem I have with potholes is on the sides of the paved approaches on gravel roads. People apparently aren't aware that they are supposed to drive ON the paved approaches, and in making high speed turns onto the road, will cut the corners of the approaches and make potholes in the gravel along the sides of the approaches. Then stop and complain about the potholes there, after they just drove through it! People have zero common sense anymore. Rant over Have a nice day!

In 2007 I purchased a new GMC work truck. On the way home from dealer I dropped it off at Z-tech. They sprayed in a bed liner, undercoated it and put a nice wax job on paint. We get salt on roads in winter. Perhaps not as much as some areas of country.

Not the first sign of rust on truck. If I ever buy another new truck, it too will be sent to Z-tech first.

If people knew how to drive they wouldn't need the stuff.

I have posted before about what has been highly effective for me in fighting rust. My 2006 F350 may be the only one in the rust belt with no rust over the rear wheel wells or in the bottoms of the doors. It is not hard to achieve. First; twice a year flush the two areas mentioned, plus anything else that you see the rust making headway on when inspecting. Let dry 24 hrs, spray with WD-40, let set 24 hrs, spray with Fluid film or an aerosol chain lube. The rear wheel wells are very easy to do because you can look right at the space between the inner and outer from just a little ahead when looking underneath. Cars usually rust over the rear wheel well. I drill a half inch hole just above and ahead in the door opening then plug with a little plastic plug. Easy and it works!

Colorado started using alot more salt this year. But this is colorad and we really don't get alot of snow, especially this year, so it hasent been bad yet. I'd hate to see a good vehical rust away.

Wash the vehicles on a regular basis, especially inside the frame rails, doors, etc. Good undercoating helps. Finding a place that does GOOD undercoating is hard. Other than that there isn't much you can do. Try to avoid hitting the potholes.

Moving out of NY is always the best option.

(quoted from post at 05:37:09 04/05/17)

Wash the vehicles on a regular basis, especially inside the frame rails, doors, etc. Good undercoating helps. Finding a place that does GOOD undercoating is hard. Other than that there isn't much you can do. Try to avoid hitting the potholes.

Moving out of NY is always the best option.

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Bret, what I do nearly works miracles and is not difficult.

(quoted from post at 22:11:42 04/04/17) It's about commerce: snowy or slippery roads slow down traffic, which slows down the 'speed of money', which affects the economy, which decreases tax revenues that the gov is increasingly desperate for.

Salt increases not just the speed at which people and goods can move in winter, but increases the need for replacement vehicles and more extensive road work. Salt plays hell not just with steel, but with concrete.

The solution I'm working toward, is to stay home from first snowfall to about the third spring rain.


Side note: interesting to see so many "neighbors" here.
@300jk, our Boer buck goat came from folks in S Wales that make goat milk soap; regularly get oranges from Thorpe's, both in your neck of the woods.

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Nope, it's the auto insurance industry lobbying the state gov'ts to get a bare roads policy in place.

They got rid of sand because of the volume, (like 10 loads sand to 1 of salt) broken windshields, then sweeping roads in spring etc. Now there is some talk about a class action lawsuit or ballot issue to stop this calcium salt stuff. Really surprised myself that the enviormental groups did not get it shut down!!!

I live in NY, and one of my recent projects was a salt storage building. They go to great lengths to protect the salt from the elements, and prevent it from leaching in to the environment - then they spread it on the roads.
On the interstate they run about 100 lb per lane mile, or 200lb per mile - multiple times a day
Pete

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. By the way, I am in Frewsburg....near Jamestown in the SW corner of the state. 3 miles away in PA, the roads are maintained differently... part of the reason for my initial post. I knew there would be a lot of insight... thanks. Yes, my 2003 farm truck is a rusted heap... but so is my buddies much newer truck.

(quoted from post at 16:05:09 04/04/17) New York began what it called the "Clear Road Program" back when Mario Cuomo was governor. Salt use got greatly increased. Now? If someone drives 60 MPH on ice and crashes - they want to sue because the "road is unsafe." No matter how well or poorly the roads are maintained, people tend to drive at their own perceived risk level. Make them think the roads are kept safer and they drive even more like idiots.

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N Y's bare road or clear road program,what ever you want to call it was started under Hugh Carrey.He wanted to see pavement when the '80 olympics at Lake Placid were taking place.
As for the salt or brine rotting your car or truck,your state or county ,town,city or municipal gov't couldn't care less as long a sales tax is in place.The gov't would like to see vehicles rust away even faster!As to the pollution
issue,apparently those regs. don't apply to state or local gov'ts

Sugar Beet juice is what they use. Getting pretty popular

That's a great idea that I will definitely use!!!
Thanks Bruce.

Our county put out notice last winter. Salt was too expensive, Only salting intersections, hills and known dangerous locations.

(quoted from post at 09:38:33 04/05/17)

(quoted from post at 05:37:09 04/05/17)

Wash the vehicles on a regular basis, especially inside the frame rails, doors, etc. Good undercoating helps. Finding a place that does GOOD undercoating is hard. Other than that there isn't much you can do. Try to avoid hitting the potholes.

Moving out of NY is always the best option.

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Bret, what I do nearly works miracles and is not difficult.

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I've tried drain oil, it works okay. I'm real interested int he Fluid Film, just got to get the chance to try it. I really wish makers like Jeep would wise up and stop designing frames that seem engineered to rust out!

(quoted from post at 12:34:08 04/05/17)

(quoted from post at 16:05:09 04/04/17) New York began what it called the "Clear Road Program" back when Mario Cuomo was governor. Salt use got greatly increased. Now? If someone drives 60 MPH on ice and crashes - they want to sue because the "road is unsafe." No matter how well or poorly the roads are maintained, people tend to drive at their own perceived risk level. Make them think the roads are kept safer and they drive even more like idiots.

Click to expand...

As for the salt or brine rotting your car or truck,your state or county ,town,city or municipal gov't couldn't care less as long a sales tax is in place.The gov't would like to see vehicles rust away even faster!As to the pollution
issue,apparently those regs. don't apply to state or local gov'ts

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I disagree. Our town would love to never have to spread another ounce of salt. It's expensive, corrosive to our equipment and we've already been sued for contaminated wells.

I agree about the pollution and wonder why the environmentalists don't get all upset. I guess having a bare road to drive your BMW on so you can get to your wilderness campsite is more important than all the salt in the soil and water. Same thing for the salt storage at places like the Port of Ogdensburg. Huge piles of uncovered salt getting rained on. That stuff surely leeches into the St Lawrence. No problem with that, but spill 20 gallons of heating oil in your back yard and you're inline to spend tens of thousands in a HAZMAT cleanup!