Oliver's future

rrlund · Mar 5, 2017

For those of you who don't go down to the Oliver Forum,JWondergem posted these pictures of Oliver's experimental tractor that used the new corporate engine and CVT transmission that Oliver patented in the late 60s. Note the injector pump that runs off the rear of the engine.
The link is to a video that Crooked Rows posted showing the CVT being used in some older model Oliver tractors. The first real look at the transmission's variability happens just over a minute in.

Would'a Could'a Should'a.

YouTube

Alan K · Mar 5, 2017

Wow. Quite a bit different than the other corporate tractor they were working on. The slanted muffler is interesting. One always wonders what would have happened. I think if Oliver would have stayed with the Perkins motors in the 55 series they would have pulled ahead quite a bit and gave other companies a run for their money. I always liked the 55 series. The top picture looks like it has MM wheel weights but is clearly an Oliver rear end.

rrlund · Mar 5, 2017

The color pictures of the corporate tractor I saw showed it with a cab. I don't really remember if the grille was like that or not. I don't think it was the checkerboard grill,so maybe it was closer to this one than I remember.

Alan K · Mar 5, 2017

I have an issue of the Oliver magazine with pictures of that tractor. It seemed to be kind of a cross of a Case 70 series cab and a 8000 Ford. Trying a couple of links for here. If they dont go you can search YT for White corporate tractor. That is where I found these. Also had found one of a different colored Oliver/White. http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=mm&th=10866%25A0 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=mm&th=65812

Alan K · Mar 5, 2017

Here is one of the pictures from one of the versions and some from that post. If you do the search for White Corporate Tractor on here, there is a post from Mike Verhulst of how and what parts were used to build the tractor.

Leroy · Mar 5, 2017

What hurt Oliver, Moline, White was a lack of dealers, Was only 2 Oliver dealerships that I knew of and both were owned by y same company, only one moline dealer and they mostly dealt with the uni harvestor and I do not know where you would have gone to buy a White. That compaired to a dozen? John Deere dealerships. 73 now and on this farm all my life. Never saw a 3 digit Oliver till way after production was over for years. Let alone a 4 digit model. A lot more Coop dealers.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

The trouble was by the time the 1970's came it was just as important to have a strong credit division which Deere had. IH was in pretty decent shape in that department until 1980 then it was another issue for IH to deal with. Oliver-White could have been in good enough shape to advance but not necessarily take on Deere but the powers that be were determined to milk the farm equipment division in to the ground for the sake of other divisions. Ford never really understood the importance of offering credit nor how farmers obtained their income so they lagged in the farm equipment business.

Donald Lehman · Mar 5, 2017

Yup, JD's credit plan sold 90% of their equipment.

Kickinbull · Mar 5, 2017

Sure be nice if they were still around

Gary Mitchell · Mar 5, 2017

I worked for an Oliver dealer in west central Missouri and we sold all 3 brands of the originals in all 3 colors, then Whites as they came out. I assume all dealers had the same options available. gm

coonie minnie · Mar 5, 2017

Not sure what to think of the "pre bent" muffler... I don't think I could look at that long term...

rrlund · Mar 5, 2017

Hey Alan,I found them too! There were two different articles about them. One in the September/October 2007 Hart Parr Oliver Collector,one in the January/February 2008 issue.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

I don't know about 90 percent but it helped push some marginal products out the door. At the same time you have to give Deere credit as the product line improved overall from 1970 to 1980. Where Deere offered a good product such as a 7000 planter and financing equaled a commanding share of the market. In the instance of the 7000 planter that was 3/4 of the planter market in North America. It's too bad that White's management/ owners were as incapable as they were. No reason for a 2-85 not to have competed strongly with JD 4030 and 4040 along with IH 886 but all the negativity White amassed doomed a lot of sales efforts. The same with the 5100 planters when they came out in 1980.

rrlund · Mar 5, 2017

Must have been a regional thing. I don't remember if it was here or down on the Oliver Forum where we were going through the list of Oliver Dealers that we had here in Michigan back in the day,but you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting one.

Alan K · Mar 5, 2017

Those are the ones I have. I hope I take some time to read some more on them lol. Interesting for sure.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

Cutting back on the entire product line should be part of the discussion as well. A fair number of White dealers were left hamstrung as White cut back on hay and forage equipment along with materials handling. Not every dealer had the option of picking up NH or Gehl. When the 1980's hit a lot of farmers were not buying big ticket items and Farm Credit was only financing on "must" purchases such as mower-conditioners, balers, manure spreaders, and in some instances forage harvesters. None of which White was offering by the 1980's. Dealers that only offered tractors, combines, and some tillage tools were the first to be pinched during the 1980's.

JD Seller · Mar 5, 2017

White/Oliver had corporate issues that doomed the entire operation form the get go. White bought Oliver for its assets. It was really one of the first hostile corporate take overs. Oliver's stock price dropped below its asset worth.

Oliver was always and innovative company. It just never had a corporate leadership to match. IH and AC suffered the same issues and that is what domed them as well.

JDs strength is not the line of equipment. It is that fact the corporate leadership has in general been good. The financial side has always been strong too. That has made JD able to weather the swings in equipment sales. I do not like where they are going with the mega dealerships but the dealership structure is just following the farm trends. There are just fewer farms so there needs to be fewer dealers to service them. A dealership just can not survive servicing the smaller farmers only.

GreenEnvy · Mar 5, 2017

Out here in MT were there was far fewer dealers then in the corn belt, IH and especially JD still out numbered the Oliver dealers 4 to 1. The nearesr Oliver dealer was 80 miles away and there was 4 IH dealers and 3 JD dealers closer to us. Also both IH and JD had CVT type trannies in the works during the 60s. The IH version was suppose to go in he 806. And JD came close to offering the MIV tranny in the 4020 in the late 60s.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

And that is where dreaming crashes into reality. Adding a new feature adds to the price tag and farmers as a group are penny pinchers. Especially some of the farmers I knew growing up. State of the art features could price a manufacturer out of the market on a certain product. Probably the biggest reason manufacturers grudgingly upgrade equipment unless it offers tangible economic value such as with the MaxEmerge planters.

Hay hay hay · Mar 5, 2017

JD you are right on this one. I have been in this situation in another similar industry. The question you have to ask is, am I going to watch as our distribution system (dealers) slowly go broke, fail and randomly disappear? OR am I going to develop a plan for what our future distribution system (dealer network) will have to look like in order to survive and prosper? Then are we willing to invest the money, effort and pain (bad press) to get it done?

Deere acted, most other companies just watched.

jm. · Mar 5, 2017

That is why it is hard for you to realize as I have related to you their were just no dealers in our area. Late 50s early 60s in these parts you just never saw any olivers and very few MMs .

rrlund · Mar 5, 2017

I was sitting here thinking about the ones we had,if I started turning in a circle and going out farther every time. Sheridan/Fenwick,Stanton/McBride,Ionia,Belding,Rockford,Trufant,Lakeview/Sylvester,Freemont,Falmouth,Mt Pleasant,Clare,St Johns,Bannister,Charlotte,Springport....and that's all within 75 miles or so.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

Excellent summary and something I was going to address in my next post here. What Ford (pre New Holland) AC, White, Etc. failed to realize was the company was nothing without a dealer network and that is what happened during the 1980's. The bean counters never saw the big picture and only worried about cutting production lines back that were not hitting a certain target financially. The companies needed to design and bring new products to market whenever they could. JD gave us an excellent example with the 716 forage wagon and outsourcing it to Badger. These other companies should have found other producers if it was not desirable to build it in house.

larry@stinescorner · Mar 5, 2017

this whole post is very very interesting,,,thanks for posting it,,and thanks for all the great reply reading too

JOCCO · Mar 5, 2017

RR same here as others said no dealers so people bought IH ford etc. Dealers were way of in other parts of the state. Moline was some farmer selling tractors as a supplement!!! White also had a truck division that was going down and merged with any thing and everything that had wheels.

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2017

White dealers here were adequate here during the 1970's if not as numerous as JD or IH dealers. Farmers if treated well tend to focus on one dealer to do business with and it is a tremendous help if everything can be gotten in one stop. That is the biggest reason AC, White, Ford, etc. fought to take on New Holland to compensate for the shortcomings of their tractor supplier. That is why back then you could drive 15 minute in most directions and find somebody selling New Holland.

Traditional Farmer · Mar 5, 2017

Really resembles a Massey Ferguson.Paul Iachan was the corporate 'scrapper',White,MM,Oliver,Cockshutt were all worth more 'parted out' than they were worth whole.

Leroy · Mar 7, 2017

And the number of dealers close far outweighed the thought of driving 2 hours just to get to a dealer for just a small part would put the closer dealers selling more of the machinery even if would be adequite but not prefered units. That dealer 25 mile away if he could be worked with would get the bussiness first , if not him the one 30 mile away and so on. People in that time did not have the ability to go for the several hours to find that far away dealer so they stayed as close to home as possible. Here at home in Ohio we had 2 JD dealers, 1 IHC, one Ford, one Ferguson 2 AC and 1 Oliver dealer within 8 mile from home. The Oliver dealership closed the branch close to home and had to go 25 mile to other place so who do you think got the bussiness? Also had 2 Coop dealers within 12 mile. I guess there were a Case dealer or 2 around but all I heard in growing up in that time frame was stay away from Case as in basket case or considered junk. 3 more JD dealers within 20 mile from home.

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