Drafting with a fire truck.

showcrop · Dec 29, 2016

For probably a hundred years farmers and rural trades people have been the backbone of the volunteer fire departments, and volunteer departments I believe, still out number paid departments. The thread "Choke???" made me think of drafting at the water hole with an engine or tanker. Drafting can be simple or very difficult. City departments seem to look at it as alchemy, while rural departments train at it regularly. We had a 1963 Mack oil truck converted to a tanker with a PTO pump. You had to really work it to get a prime, RPMs just right, pull the prime pump knob just long enough, then SLOWLY open the discharge to send the water to the tank, while slowly raising the RPMs. I was driving a different tanker one night for a structure fire, and we had an engine company from the full time department in the very big next town at our main water hole to fill tankers. I got there and they were struggling to get water. I heard them looking for a spanner to tighten the suck lines, with lots of cursing and compartment door slamming. Knowing that every city truck in the country has a cloth bucket hanging in the back with a couple spanners and other drafting tools in it, I went and got them their spanners. They could still not get their $250,000 engine to draft. Finally I told them to just give me what they had on their truck, and I went back with that. Fortunately the fire was out by then. A member of that department was a deputy on ours at the time. A few days later he told me that they were not going to even try again to draft. Call them for anything else, but call another rural department for drafting.

ss55 · Dec 29, 2016

I'll bite, what is drafting with a fire truck?

old-9 · Dec 29, 2016

I would guess priming a pumper to suck water from a pond or pool.

RM-MN · Dec 29, 2016

Our fire department had no hydrants so we always had to draft. The truck would have a small amount of water so we could quickly make an initial attack but then the tanker would fill a portable tank and we'd begin drafting from that. Then the tanker would head back to the barn to refill and hopefully return before the portable tank was sucked dry. If not we'd have to prime the pump again.

Tech 7 · Dec 29, 2016

Drafting was a normal procedure when I was on the local Dept. 25 yrs ago. Our original 1963 Chev with a King pumper required you to draft when ever the main (a screaming 500 gal) tank was empty and you began pulling water from the porta tank that would be set up alongside the pumper at any structure fire. We rarely "pushed" water to the pumper from tanker trucks. The pump equipment on the truck (to my memory) incorporated a vacuum pump run by a 12V motor that pulled any trapped air out of the inlet lines. Yes, you still needed to ensure leak proof connections on the lines to the porta tank. We had "hose wrenches" mounted on brackets on 3 sides of all trucks.
I can still hear that motor howl. When you were working a fire you could hear that sound above a lot of other things. When you heard it you knew that there was another load in the porta tank and our pump operator "Billy P" would be sending it our way.

flembo · Dec 29, 2016

Old 9 is right. I was a volunteer firefighter for over 25 yrs the last 10 as chief and I have seen a lot of screw ups by both city
and small town volunteers including my own. My personal best was running a pumper with the pto engaged but the transmission was in
1st gear instead of 4th. I couldn't get any pressure and it was the Deputy Chief that spotted the problem I was the Captain at the
time and I felt like a jerk. We had a training officer that was an excellent teacher and really knew his stuff, but when that
siren went off all his knowledge went somewhere else. I will say this Thank God for Volunteer Fire and Rescue Depts. I don't know
where we would be without them.

dpendzic · Dec 29, 2016

we had a structure fire the day before Christmas--we seldom draft anymore and on this one we had a hydrant 8oo ft away---I layed a 5 inch feed line in to my engine straight from the hydrant

Bob M · Dec 29, 2016

Drafting is a pumper drawing water by suction from a pond, creek, etc. vs receiving water under pressure from a hydrant.

RayP(MI) · Dec 29, 2016

Donno, did it all the time with irrigation pump. One had exhaust powered siphonn which worked but not great. Engine was run at a high speed. Then we got a engine vacuum run one. Engine idled. Workrd real well.

rrc300 u · Dec 29, 2016

Never knew it was called drafting but almost all of the local fire
departments near me do it. They have dry hydrants at local ponds and
lakes that they pull from. After a big fire it amazes me how much the
water level will drop. They also have a lake near me they qualify the
pump trucks at. I have taken the kids there to watch it. Looks to me
like they are pumping through a meter and back into the lake. The
trucks sure do howl when they do it.

unc · Dec 29, 2016

I drove a tanker on our rural department years back. While it was possible to draft with this truck, I would try to fill from available pressurized sources whenever I could. We had two flowing wells in our district, and three town water systems. The local Hutterite colonies would roll a water truck if they saw smoke, and irrigation operators would make pumps available to us. I would rather haul water a little farther than mess around with PTO pumps and suction lines when you're in a hurry. In forestry wildfires, we drafted onto the truck with a dedicated diesel pump and a very simple manual suction pump to prime. We could be rolling with a tank of water while the competition was still swearing at their pump. Sometimes the simple way is the best. unc

Olliejunkie · Dec 29, 2016

When I was young I remember watching them fill trucks down at a creek. I think they were practicing and i think my dad was a volenteer at the time. I think that was the first and last time I saw them draft. They do have a lot more departments out here now and better trucks.

Tech 7 · Dec 29, 2016

This thread has brought up some memories. Our Dept had a few hydrants in the newer part of the village but we only had ever used them in training sessions. As far as filling tankers we almost always loaded them with portable "Hale" pumps with rope (not recoil) starters and the exhaust driven primers. In the day loading a tanker with two of those old beasts barking away was really moving water.

da.bees · Dec 29, 2016

When I read the post title I visualized the popular Japanese sport slideing cars around a circle dirt track.

showcrop · Dec 29, 2016

(quoted from post at 09:13:51 12/29/16) I drove a tanker on our rural department years back. While it was possible to draft with this truck, I would try to fill from available pressurized sources whenever I could. We had two flowing wells in our district, and three town water systems. The local Hutterite colonies would roll a water truck if they saw smoke, and irrigation operators would make pumps available to us. I would rather haul water a little farther than mess around with PTO pumps and suction lines when you're in a hurry. In forestry wildfires, we drafted onto the truck with a dedicated diesel pump and a very simple manual suction pump to prime. We could be rolling with a tank of water while the competition was still swearing at their pump. Sometimes the simple way is the best. unc

This is why in our area it is common practice to assign tanker filling to a mutual aid engine company. This way there is need to daft just once for as many loads as it takes.

john *.?-!.* cub owner · Dec 29, 2016

In my part of the country there are a lot of volunteer departments and several combination professional/volunteer ones. On the combinations there are a few paid employees that are at the firehouse and when a call comes in they head for the locations with the trucks, and the volunteers meet them at the location, or if a larger fire, some of the volunteers come to the fire house and get more trucks. It is needless to say a combination city/rural fire district, with many areas being miles from hydrants, but there are a lot of creeks with low water crossings, ponds, etc. and every operator is well trained in priming and drafting with the pumps. I happened to be passing by where one of the operators was by himself and having trouble getting his suction hose connected due to the hose weight and angle of the pump connection, so I stopped and held up the hose while he got it screwed on. They probably have better ways of doing it now, that was about 40 years ago.

marloweg · Dec 29, 2016

in our dept if you can't run that engine you better not be on it. we draft 100% of the time

Doug-Iowa · Dec 29, 2016

We draft 100% of the time. Even when a hydrant is nearby, we just use it to feed a portable tank. Most small town hydrants can't supply a good sized pumper anyway, and pulling hard enough to collapse a water main is always a risk.

Ever relay pumped? We did it on a diary barn fire one time and put two of us seniors guys on the pumpers. Pulling out of the river with a '69 International front mount was mine. Maybe about 200 feet apart on two 2 1/2 lines. Seemed like it took forever to get tuned in (probably was only 5-10 minutes but you know how it goes when you need water) but once we were pumping the first truck was full throttle and the second loafing along at about half. Lots of line loss even with two hoses.

Scott 730 · Dec 29, 2016

I thought this would be Nascar with fire trucks. :roll:

paul · Dec 29, 2016

I too was envisioning NASCAR type racing with fire trucks......

A friends house flooded from a record rain one summer day decades ago.

A mis constructed street water line drained a dry resivor into several people's basements, didn't know it until that first heavy rain. Didn't know
why they were getting 3 feet of water in their basement at the time.

Fire truck came and sucked water out of the basement. Friend and I were wading around picking stuff up. We got to watch the end of the hose
to keep it under water.

I knew nothing about it, but they had a heck of a time getting the suction to start.

Interesting thread.

Dos 'drafting' use flowing water or air to start the suction process, like a carburetor sucks gas in some sort of way?

Or what is the process?

Paul

farmerjohn · Dec 29, 2016

Thanks for the definition, I know nothing about fire trucks, didn't know what they were talking about.

dpendzic · Dec 29, 2016

at a junk yard fire once we had a 7 pumper relay to push water well over a mile--it was really difficult to keep the flow going consistenly

dpendzic · Dec 29, 2016

drafting is sucking up water to the pump--maybe up to about 20 ft---the suction line has to be airtight, then you apply a vacuum to it and the water will rise up to the pump, then you will develop pressure in the pump and the trick is to start pumping the water without loosing the prime by discharging too much at first

hydro70guy · Dec 29, 2016

I will add when drafting from tank we would throw a ball in tank so whirlpool in middle when low would not draw air and cause loss of
prime

NEKS · Dec 29, 2016

Learned something today. Didn't know it was called drafting.

marloweg · Dec 29, 2016

just a little of topic we use a bowling pins to tighten the suction hose. when we did our ISO test the inspector had no idea why we had a bowling pin on each pumper. when i told him why he gave us a few extra points

Rollie NE PA · Dec 29, 2016

Actually when drafting you have to do what is called pulling a prime. By doing this you create 0 atmospheric pressure in the pump and this allows or causes the atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi per sq inch) to push the water into the pump.

Destroked 450 · Dec 29, 2016

I'm the chief of a local vol fire dept, the nearest hydrant to our fire house is 3 miles, We us our tanker and call other departments for tanker support. Drop tanks are set up for the tankers to offload in while one pumper drafts from the tanks and relays water to engines on the scene.
All fire fighters in my dept are trained to draft water from a drop tank, the pumpers are set up with external gate valves to allow drafting from a drop tank or pulling water from the onboard tank without loosing draft.
When drafting from the pond or stream we'll set a pumper up there to draft water and fill the tankers, when there's no tankers on site to fill we'll spray water back into the pond or stream through the deck gun until another tanker arrive to fill, that way we never loose the draft and can fill the tankers much faster.

There's a company now that makes a vacuum pump that works off of the trucks air brake system using a venturi valve to create a vacuum to draft water to the pump.
No electric motors or vane pumps to wear out and can be set up to automatically start pulling vacuum when you begin drafting or anytime pump pressure drops from loosing draft.

Been thinking about converting one pumper over to this system and see how it does, if it's as good as they say we'll convert all trucks to this system.
What ever it takes to get water on the fire faster and safer, driving tankers faster is not safer

showcrop · Dec 29, 2016

(quoted from post at 20:40:03 12/29/16)
I'm the chief of a local vol fire dept, the nearest hydrant to our fire house is 3 miles, We us our tanker and call other departments for tanker support. Drop tanks are set up for the tankers to offload in while one pumper drafts from the tanks and relays water to engines on the scene.
All fire fighters in my dept are trained to draft water from a drop tank, the pumpers are set up with external gate valves to allow drafting from a drop tank or pulling water from the onboard tank without loosing draft.
When drafting from the pond or stream we'll set a pumper up there to draft water and fill the tankers, when there's no tankers on site to fill we'll spray water back into the pond or stream through the deck gun until another tanker arrive to fill, that way we never loose the draft and can fill the tankers much faster.

There's a company now that makes a vacuum pump that works off of the trucks air brake system using a venturi valve to create a vacuum to draft water to the pump.
No electric motors or vane pumps to wear out and can be set up to automatically start pulling vacuum when you begin drafting or anytime pump pressure drops from loosing draft.

Been thinking about converting one pumper over to this system and see how it does, if it's as good as they say we'll convert all trucks to this system.
What ever it takes to get water on the fire faster and safer, driving tankers faster is not safer

That air venturi system sounds like it is not far removed from the exhaust venturi primers that we had on the old Hale portables back in the day.

Destroked 450 · Dec 29, 2016

Simular in design most likely, just uses a electric air solenoid to activate the primer, the Waterous pump we have in our brush truck has an exhaust primer.
Had a Ford CL9000 cab over that used a air venturi to operate the vacuum controls in the heat and AC units, bad part was if you turned the key on while working on the truck it would bleed the air system down, when I first got the truck I thought I had a small air leak behind the left kick panel.

Destroked 450 · Dec 29, 2016

Simular in design most likely, just uses a electric air solenoid to activate the primer, the Waterous pump we have in our brush truck has an exhaust primer.
Had a Ford CL9000 cab over that used a air venturi to operate the vacuum controls in the heat and AC units, bad part was if you turned the key on while working on the truck it would bleed the air system down, when I first got the truck I thought I had a small air leak behind the left kick panel.

Bret4207 · Dec 30, 2016

I don't know how it is everywhere else, but I'll tell you up here the laws make it darn near impossible to keep a volunteer fire co going, much less form one where it's needed. IMO this idea of treating rural volunteers the same as urban pros is going to end up killing people and cost a lot of people their homes or barns simply because you can't get people to commit to the ridiculous amount of time it takes anymore. I tried getting a fire co formed here, it would have taken millions of dollars. And after talking to dozens of people I found very, very few willing to commit to the hundreds of hours of training. The killer was having to work Bingo and coin drops and all the fund raisers on top of everything else. I was a volunteer where I used to live for 8 years years. My dad was for 20. It's nuts to think people can spare the time to do this anymore, but it's even crazier to think that peoples homes will be lost because of OSHA or some legislation that requires ludicrous amounts of training.

unc · Dec 30, 2016

Ditto on brent4207. What has changed? Lawyers, lawyers, lawyers, politicians, civil servants, and petty tyrants in administrative positions. A few years ago, our MD council decided that all volunteers would be required to complete an extra 100 hours a year of formal training at a very distant college. Great- volunteers now must use their vacations and take additional time off work to go back to school each year. How do you think that went over at home?
Our area cannot afford full time departments. The volunteer departments are located where they are needed, and operate effectively on shoestring budgets. A handful of dedicated and knowledgable people cover a huge area, without complaint, and without much thanks.
Didn't mean to hijack the forum, but government interference is a big reason we can no longer find enough volunteers.

Jdr315 · Dec 30, 2016

Sounds like the other department needs to do a pump test and some maintenance/repairs. Or they need to do some training. Our guys don't have to draft very often but they do practice it. We pump test our trucks every year.

Rollie NE PA · Dec 30, 2016

Pennsylvania is a non OSHA state as far as government agencies are concerned. If Pennsylvania ever adopts OSHA regs for volunteer fire departments I think you will see many of them close down their stations. It is hard enough to comply with all of the NFPA regulations/guidelines.

The fire dept. I belong to does not receive any money from the township. We own all of our apparatus, equipment, building, pay all of the insurance and fuel. There are only about 17 active members.

www.jacksonfire.com

Drafting with a fire truck.

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