young mechanic needs advice

I am a young mechanic who really enjoys working on tractors. I have put a new clutch in a farmall m and super c and done a few brake jobs as well. I also have a farmall 706 gas tractor that I have done quite a bit of work on as well. Recently someone offered to sell me an IH 806 diesel for a reasonable price, however it needs an overhaul. I have always wanted to learn how to work on engines and do overhauls like this, but, I am concerned that it might be too big of job for my first time. What did you guys start out on, and should I be looking at something closer to a super c, or a John Deere B? Thanks(by the way I live on a farm and have been around tractors my whole life)?

Does an IH 806 diesel have the D-361 engine?

I would say the biggest hurdle would be money. There is alot of knowledge here and on redpower. If you have a good machine shop they will likely be helpful. I have found that every time I open an engine it gets expensive.

The only risk in doing a major on a big (for its day) diesel is the risk of the expense involved compared to an M or H. The precision is the same, the steps are the same, and the outcomes are the same (in proportion). I would say that if it is running now, and you can buy it reasonably (it is a desirable tractor) make the purchase, but put some time in a less expensive unit before tackling this one. $4000 is easily sunk into the kit and machining and necessary small parts and fluids to make it right. Where an H might be 1000 or a little more. There is no way to recoup the money spent on it in a sale. Decide with an eye to gaining experience, not suffering from it. Jim

(quoted from post at 04:46:23 12/29/16) The only risk in doing a major on a big (for its day) diesel is the risk of the expense involved compared to an M or H. The precision is the same, the steps are the same, and the outcomes are the same (in proportion). I would say that if it is running now, and you can buy it reasonably (it is a desirable tractor) make the purchase, but put some time in a less expensive unit before tackling this one. $4000 is easily sunk into the kit and machining and necessary small parts and fluids to make it right. Where an H might be 1000 or a little more. There is no way to recoup the money spent on it in a sale. Decide with an eye to gaining experience, not suffering from it. Jim

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excellent advice Jim, overhauling a diesel engine is a far greater undertaking than a comparable gas. The $4000 is just for a bottom end overhaul, any work done by machine shops (cranks, cams,etc.) will be overwhelming.

Yup....

One thing sorely lacking in too much of our society is the apprentice. Schooling is great but a diploma is really only a license to learn. As a young mechanic you should have the basic skills necessary to do the work. What you lack is experience. Regardless of what engine you decide to tear into, you need someone that knows how to do it and do it right looking over your shoulder, mentoring you. I know it sounds confining to us when we're young, but I know if it hadn't been for some guys like my dad in my life I'd have made more screwups putting things together than I could have afforded to fix.

Having said that, diesels are less forgiving of "almost right" than most gas stuff. Your Machine shop can help you with inspecting parts upon tear down. This is especially important if the engine you tear down is anything other than just tired. If you pull the pan and find a bucket full of parts in the sump then you are no longer performing just a tear down, you're performing an autopsy. You must know the cause of death. And the shop can ensure the parts are clean and in spec when they leave the shop. If you are meticulous and keep a clean shop you can put anything together and have a high probability it will run. Remember also that many a perfectly rebuilt engine has been destroyed by failing to adequately inspect such things as injectors, induction systems, turbos, radiator, etc., really anything that returns to the engine. In other words a successful overhaul in more than just the internals.

If you cannot find someone to apprentice under on your first engine, follow the overhaul manual to a tee and if anything deviates, STOP, take a picture, post it here and someone that knows will advise you.

Just some things to think about, good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Get a GOOD overhaul manual and take it one step at a time by the manual.

That's the way I learned to overhaul automatic transmissions. I had a worn out Chevy 350 trans, I bought a good manual, fabricated a few special tools, and went at it. It worked.

The D361 and d407's are not the engine for a yopung first timer to work on unless you have someone that has done many . They have there quarks . Removing the sleeves requires usuall around 7 ton of force and i have seen a few that 14 ton will not make them move . and on them i just have the sleeves bored out on the boring bar and due to core shift in those blocks it is wise to have them line bored (not line honed ) then see if over boring the block to except the .010 sleeve . I have had a couple that would not clean up at .010 and was forced to bore larger and have a repair sleeve pressed in and bored the .010 to keep everything in line . There is a lot of work in measuring everything and figuring to get everything set . Then when you press in the sleeves you have to use a rigid hone to clean up the wrinkles in the sleeve , then comes fitting each piston to the hole as you will find that they are not all the same size and you have to maintain skirt to wall clearance . the list goes on on what has to be done as it is not a matter of just pulling parts out of the boxes and stuffing them in .
I watched one guy try and do one himself because he did not like my price and after the fifth engine that seezed up and put rods out the side of the block before they had thirty hours on them he ended up bringoing me a block and all the pieces and parts to built #6 His education was expensive on how not to put one together.

Just rember an IT booklet isn 't a GOOD service manual,get your hands on an IH service copy.

I've done a engine overhaul before and I'm in no means a mechanic. Actually I despise working on any vehicle but over the years until recently I haven't been able to find a competent mechanic so I've had to do everything myself. The hardest part of working on any vintage vehicle is parts so before you buy you might do some homework and see what the availability of the known needed parts are.

Figure out how much you think the parts will cost to do the overhaul, then add 20 percent. Then estimate how many hours it will take to do the overhaul, double that number and multiply it times the minimum wage. When you add it all up, chances are the seller will need to pay you to take the tractor before it will be profitable to overhaul it. That said, it would be a great learning experience but not necessarily an inexpensive one.

I started on a Briggs N Stratton lawn mower, then a IH Cub, then a 327 Chevy. I needed help on every one. You have set a high bar for a first leap.

Welcome Billy! Sounds like you and I have a lot in common as far as getting an early start on mechanicing! I can remember going behind my dads garage, taking junk motors apart when I couldn't have been over about 8 years old!

You have received a lot of good advise here! What you are contemplating doing is a whole different ball game than anything you have listed you have done before.

Not only is this a very expensive undertaking, diesel engine repair is an exacting, unforgiving process.

This involves having machine work done. I don't know what is available in your community, but I live in a large metropolitan area, and it is near impossible to find a competent shop. Add to the fact that you are young and inexperienced, many of these shops will be unwilling to work with you, and worse yet, will take advantage of that!

As others have said, best to start out with something more forgiving and less costly. My suggestion would be an automotive project, something simple and cheap, like a small block Chevy or Ford. Automotive parts are much cheaper than tractor parts. This will not only get you some experience, it will get you "in the loop" as far as finding out where the good, honest and willing machine shops are. Hint, go where the racers go! If there are any dirt track, or drag strips around, start hanging out with them, make some friends, pick their brains! They will know who is who when it comes to getting quality work done.

If you want to do something with a tractor, stick with something gas powered, like a small Ford, Ferguson, IH, etc. My first tractor experiences came from working on tractors for others. If word gets out that you can fix them, there will be people willing to give you a chance to take on their otherwise cost prohibitive projects. You can charge much less than the dealer, get some good experience, make a little money, and keep one more tractor out of the scrap yard!

Hope this helps, keep us informed!

Going to where the racers go has gotten me into trouble as far as finding a good machine shop. Many of those places all they know are small block Chevy's and do not have the equipment large enough to do a tractor engine and they also think an old 2 cyl. Deere has to be to the specs of a race engine which it does not.
I finally found a good one with large enough equipment to do these old tractors as they do industrial engines and semi truck engines.

It sounds like you are an IH person. I'd say stick with those for now and find a gas one that needs the engine repaired in it before tackling a larger diesel. A model C or super C or A would be a good choice I'd think. I'm a JD person myself. If you are not familiar with them I'd not jump right into one of them just yet. They have their own quarks that discourage many. The late B's are very good tractors and JD sells a VERY GOOD service manual for them however.
Good luck with whatever you chose. I started very young and there was not a good place like this to get free advice. I'd go into the dealers and ask questions at the service departments and basically got told to bring it in and they would look at it. Well that meant paying them. Nothing to be learned there either.
I bought up several tractors in bad shape over the years and parted them out. That is a really good learning experience too.

I would like to commend you for even considering buying your own diesel to learn on rather than charging someone while you learn on their equipment - the local John Deere dealership should try this.

That's funny,,,,,I don't care who you are.

Yes...like some other engines..the IH D361 has 'dry liners'. If the liners/sleeves and pistons are not too badly worn it is possible to hone the sleeves and re-ring the engine.

The main issue with honing and re-ringing is that the new piston rings will likely be chrome and take forever to seat...

I'm a younger fellow too and am starting to learn a lot about these antique tractors. I'm a JD type of person and am working on a '51 JD B. I've learned a lot so far including a few design flaws. I here ya on wanting to do bigger things but for me personally it's the funds that's the biggest problem. So I've been taking it slow.

In the past I've worked on antique garden tractors and small engines. Now going from those to this B and a little bit of the 620's is quit the leap. A LOT more to them then those air cooled flat heads! I think the best investment I've made for the tractors is getting the service manuals.

I'm turning 49 in about a month and a half, and I've been working on equipment all of my life. I began helping Dad with small engines, etc, when I was reallt young. Funny, Mom has a picture of me sitting on the work bench with a screwdriver,'helping' Dad, while I was still in diapers. By the age of 13 I was splitting tractors and putting in clutches pretty much alone.

Now, I routinely work on everything from lawnmowers to D9 CAT dozers, most often completely alone. When one of my customers gets ready I've got both an 80D, and a 190D Northwest crane to put back together. Since Dad pretty much retired several years ago, I imagine I'll wind up doing 90% of that work alone.

Just this week I pulled the rear axel out of a L110E Volvo loader after the mounting bolts in the front mount worked their way out and the axel jumped out of the read mount as well. Other than a little help this morning getting it set back in place with two forklifts (it broke under roof and I couldn't get my crane situated to pick it properly...without a lot of extra work) I did everything myself.

That said, a man once told me that, 'They only make so many kinds of parts, it's just how you put them together as to what they do.' When I think about that, I think about two things. One, the parts aren't really going to be any different regardless of which tractor you choose to work on. The second, is that even though a part may be a little bigger, or smaller, it will still be the same part, doing the same thing.

To sum it up, do whatever your comfortable with, but don't let the size of a machine intimidate you.