A living wage

What is a living wage today.
I do not begrudge anyone anything they can afford but do we make enough just live to high on the hog.
I would bet if you ask 100 people if they make enough money 99.99% would say no.

No way we can make it on $3 corn yet we ride around in pressurized cabins with air condition and GPS steering to plant this corn.

You ride down the street and see houses like this.





When a house like this will suit most needs.





In fact many a child was raised in a house like this.





I would think that if my grandkids were raised under the same conditions my grandfather was raised the whole neighborhood would be talking about us and child welfare would be knocking at the door.


You could build a home; even at todays lumber prices; that I was raised in for what some pay for a car today.





You could even buy a nice mobile home today for this same price some spend on a car.
But live in a mobile home and some look at you like trailer park trash.
Not because you may be frugal but because you do not live up to todays standards.

So is our wage really to low. Or is it more our standard of living is just to high.

We all could do with less. Look at the 'junk' we surround ourselves with, that wasn't even heard of a generation ago... My parents had a family of eight kids and shared a party line phone with ten neighbour's....now there are two of us in the house with 3 phones.....there are 4 computers/devices and two televisions....3 vehicles in the driveway....maybe it is time to purge, but where do we start? Ben

A few years ago I did work at the Pelican Rapids School. The local mom and pop lumber yard was supplying materials for a $7M house.

It got me thinking about what $7M would buy in building materials. For example, I just finished a 3 story, 24 unit assisted living addition with a full NSF kitchen that came in around $2.5M.

A guy could do a lot better things than dump that much in a house. I could waste some, build a shed, and buy lots of tractors... maybe a case of beer.

Wayyyyyyyy back in the early seventies I bought a 100 acre farm with a nice older frame home for $30,000 and my monthly payment was just over $200 THATS WHY TO THIS DAY I NEVER OWNED A CAR THAT DEPERECIATES IN VALUE FOR THAT KIND OF MONEY. I guess I made a "living wage" as I'm still alive. Those kind of words (like Social Justice or pay your fair share or investments (versus taxes) ) are code or buzz words for the left.

John T NOT a Politically Correct kinda guy and so proud and happy for it

Well I don't know if I am frugal or just poor, but the house I live in is the same one my Great-grand Father and Great-grand mother built in the early 1900's. Now I did update the electrical and plumbing and interior. But the outside looks pretty much just like it did when they lived in it. Also all of my vehicles are paid for with the exception of the 2013 Equinox I just bought my wife for her job, I am not buying a new truck or car at the prices that they want for them today. All a house has to do is keep the rain off of you and keep the wind off you in the winter. I guess I would rather have the money for another tractor or other piece of equipment that I could use than a million dollar house.

Ive seen some houses demolished that were better than some people live in. We have a lot of "conveniences" now days that arent necessities, but how do to tell people that?....

I say a good living wage is what I make now (which is not real high) if I could have back all the mandatory payroll deductions !

Those people with the fancy houses as shown in the first picture sure throw a fit when they get a quote on redoing a roof on those style places too !

A living wage is subject to the area in which a person lives. A person could live fairly well on 15 dollars per hour here but a person in the Washington DC metro or Boston metro would be considered poor at 15 dollars per hour. Then we have to factor in the changing economy and increased automation. We will reach a point where a greater number of people will fail to gain employment that will keep them out of poverty. I don't look forward to the future when I think about that. It will not take wide spread starvation to trigger social unrest like it did in the past.

I think everyone has the right to aspire to better themselves and live in a house or drive a car that makes them happy. Personally, I drive the most basic car I can fit into and would not be happy with any of the residences pictured. My house is more middle of the road. No offense against John, but I ask myself why this thinly veiled topic is allowed. I think it should be, but do not understand why this is OK while a few people very politely expressing their happiness over the election, without any specific discussion of issues, gets removed. Go on with your discussion...it is an interesting topic. I just turned off CNN so maybe I am excessively sensitive at the moment!

I remember over 40 years ago my Dad saying that in his lifetime he never met anyone who thought they made too much money, he was right, and that is good in my opinion, as long as they are willing to work harder or innovate to make more money that's what makes the world go around. I don't live in a fancy house and don't want one, land is the only major expenditure I am willing to make these days.

It's really rather crazy, isn't it?

We live in an old, small two story (nearly 100 years old, in fact). It's about 1,250 square feet. I think some people have living rooms almost the size of our entire first floor.

Ours is 3 small bedrooms, 1 bathroom - all upstairs.

Even if money grew on trees and even if we had a bunch of them...

The only thing I'd ever like to do is add on a modest living room and a bedroom. That way we could make our current living room into a bathroom/laundry room... simply to have everything on the main floor ('cuz we're for sure, not getting any younger).

Sometimes when I see a beautiful and spacious home, I feel just a small twinge of the green-eyed monster..... BUT THEN, I think about what their payments are and the green-eyed monster goes right to sleep. LOL

On vehicles: we only by used... and drive them a LONG time. Drove my last car for 15 years. We did spend more on my current car than we've ever spent (just under 12K) - but will drive that baby for another long, long stretch of time.

I live in a small house similar to picture 2. I bought my first house in 1977 that cost $25,000. Thought I was spending more than I could ever repay. I paid off my second house last month and have nothing financed. According to the experts, my salary is in the low income range today. My wife and I took a trip to England in celebration of our 25th wedding anniversary this fall. We enjoy talking about that trip daily. We never had much to say about our mortgage or car payments though. I'm satisfied with my lot in life. My adult son thinks I'm a loser because of what I don't have.

Kind of an odd deal how the classes are settling out in this country.

The taxes and health care issues in this country are making it tough on anyone self employed. Too small to get represented with loopholes, and too 'wealthy' for the other classes that don't own stuff so the taxes keep piling up out of jealousy. Any more a self employed person has to be gaining assets, but no dollars at all. Assets are the only loophole to protect against some taxes - income, social security, etc. self employed is a feast of famine deal, and they tax the bejeebers out of you on the feast years, so nothing left to weather the famine years.

8-4 working folk are being replaced by automation. And some shipped off shore.

Service industry is being somewhat replaced by technology, taking orders or selling furniture and cars isn't what it used to be, the skill set needed isn't worth $15 an hour when a person can shop online now.

Younger folk are told they need 6 years of intensive college to compete - and then are too educated in books and not real world that they don't know how to work, sit in their parents basement with their multiple graduation degrees.....

We need more trade school folk. They hav been squeezed out of our education system.

Broad brush here, lot of individual situations are far different, and yea in general we all have it pretty good.

Paul

Jon in La, your post is a good example of wisdom and common sense that is lost on so much of our society. I trust God for my needs which He supplies and He's even thrown in a lot of wants, but guess what? Sometimes I find myself thinking if I could just have this or have that, life would be so much better, would it really? When I stop and ponder all that I'm truly blessed with, Thanksgiving becomes so much more than just turkey and football. Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

Wages for the middle class have been typically stagnant in this country, while the cost of everything has gone up. I am blown away by the homes people buy and live in, along with the vehicles the have parked in two of the stalls of their attached garage, with some toys parked in the third stall. We are a people obsessed with having "stuff." I will admit I have my own "stuff," and it perhaps is too much. I look at people my age (50) and those down to the age of 25 or 30. I have never gotten caught up in the hype of driving a new car or having a big, fancy home. I like seeing others pay for this stuff, and then I like to find those items these people trade in for newer stuff. My home, it is a fixer upper we have been working on for 7 years. I still have more to do, but it is at least sound and solid. My vehicles are all used. I just bought my "new to me" car last year. It was 12 years old with 32,000 miles on the odometer. It is in really great shape and I am happy with it. My last car was a 7 year old car with just under 25,000 miles. My truck was 10 years old, well cared for like every other vehicle I have bought, and it only had 36,000 miles. In every case, I managed to buy my vehicle for about a third of what it sold for new. Realtors and bankers love home buyers. They ask for their gross income and come up with a "figure" of what they can afford to pay a month on a home. My first home, my monthly installments were 1/4 of what I was told I could afford. The current home was 1/3. I have also carefully put money aside for retirement from the very first job I had starting in 1989. I have "in-laws" who are about my age who overbought on their home, lease a new SUV every 3 years, go to Cancun, Mexico twice a winter, monthly weekend long shopping trips with motels, etc..................they still manage to complain about not having any money, and I about went off the deep end when they complained about the price of gasoline when they were driving a Chevrolet Suburban AND a pickup truck as their only vehicles. I make a good living with my job, my wife has an okay paying job, and I have a farming operation on the side, too, which the combine is 20 years old with a 40 year old corn head, and the newest tractor is 22 years old. No GPS or autosteer, and I really cannot justify it if I wanted it. The road to retirement is a marathon that must begin day one of your working years. It is not a sprint in the last years of working. Taking care of one's self in our later years involves sacrifice, working hard, working smart, and planning. By the way, my "in-laws" are banking on their potential inheritance to finance their retirement. Good luck to them on that note. I suspect the lucky morons will hit some sort of financial windfall to bail their butts out of trouble at some point, but at least I feel a bit more hopeful and confident my planning will pay off. The houses like you show here are on payments, just like the new SUV you shared, and the other things these "keep up with the Jones" morons have bought in to.

Well said DP, Happy Thanksgiving to you to.

I think my grandfather had a fairly accurate assessment on things several years back. "It is not the high cost of living, but, the cost of living high." Most of us could get by just fine on much less.

"It is not the high cost of living, but, the cost of living high."


My point exactly.

You hit the nail on the head about self employed. I am a contractor and the great recession of 2008 showed that I brought home as much if I grossed much less and paid less taxes. I now work about 40 hours a week instead of sixty and make the same so much for the American dream. If you see me with a new truck that means I had a good year and needed a tax write off. We were taught don't buy it if you can't pay for it so everything I have is paid for.

I don't fault anyone for buying as nice as they can afford. And I'll never be paid as much as I want but I've always been paid what the job was worth. When I wanted more I got a different job and eventually became self employed.
I was raised to never finance anything that wouldn't pay for itself. A house basically locks in a rent payment so it pays for itself. A basic work vehicle is needed to get to work. Vehicles with all the bells and whistles are nice but I was taught to pay for all the extras up front so I usually just buy basic and pay for it. I buy new and keep until it's ready for the scrap yard.
There's different philosophies on which way is best. My way is to save what you can for a rainy day. The other way is to buy now and pay later. Honestly there are arguments both ways. As long as people are buying, someone has to be hired to make the product or provide the service. I prefer not to be a slave to my possessions.

I'd fault them for it. Most people don't know how to live within their means these days, and the rest have no concept of a savings account.

The way I think of it is this. Lets say there's 4 areas of life, house, car, vacations, food. Pick 1 to be above average, and the rest to be in the middle. If you like to eat out all the time, at all fancy places, put the rest in the average category, and save the remainder. It may sound like an over-simplification, but nice stuff does drive us to do better in life. But going over the top on everything, leaves most with no savings and leading an empty life working 24/7 to pay for it.

You hit the nail on the head when it comes to spending some of their millions. Always amazes me when these Doctor wifes come out to buy hay with their $80,000 dully pickup and $40,000 trailer and then complain that I am charging 50 cents/bale more then the guy they had been buying from. --Well why don't you go back and buy it from him?--Well because his is always moldy!--

Living beyond your means = Gotta have it now

Well, no one really offered an opinion on the OP's question: What is a living wage? The answer will depend on where you live, how many people have to live off that wage but I'll take a stab at it. The government says it's $ 11,880 for an individual and $23,283 for 2 adults with 2 dependents in the 48 contiguous states. That's the FPL (Federal Poverty Level). Crank it up from there to allow for other expenses (health care, gas money, clothing) and "some" luxuries (toys for kids at Christmas, dinner out once a month, etc), "some" retirement savings (you're not going to live off SS in retirement making those low wages), "some" rainy day fund savings (new furnace, car repairs, etc). So, if you said $ 250 a month for each of the above, that'd add $12k to the total or about $24k or $ 12/hr for an individual and $35k or $18/hr. Both those numbers seem low to me.

An unemployed person with few skills might say he'd take $18/hr right now and be happy while someone with skills making $25/hr taking a pay cut to $18/hr would be unhappy. So, it's pretty relative, but I'd say $25/hr is a comfortable bottom number. Agree or disagree?

I guess I failed in trying to answer the question, as was pointed out by fellow commenter, JML 755. I found a website that might just provide a bit of guidance.

Here it is: http://livingwage.mit.edu/

The health insurance issue is going to be a sticky one, though. That is one topic I would rather not go into because I have my opinions on the matter, as well as everyone else.

One thing about those big expensive houses is they will pay more tax than the reasonable size one in the second picture. If they are paying more taxes the folks with the smaller reasonable size homes will have to pay less for the same income for the town. This is the only advantage to the huge houses I see going up. If that's what they want, let them pay the tax and the heating bill. If they lived more reasonable they could retire sooner, but that is their choice.

Getting on to a "living wage", this is related to the discussion of minimum wage. What you don't hear about minimum wage is that some folks are not worth more than min. wage. Some are not worth even that. When I was a mechanic for a mill/factory I watched a parade of people they tried to hire for as little as possible, not looking for anyone with any technical skill or experience. Sometimes (rarely) it worked out and they could learn the job and become skilled "technicians". Often the people they got weren't worth anything, never mind minimum wage. I thought the minimum wage was a starting pay for folks with no skill and or experience, maybe right out of high school,and they would, with in months, if they worked out and learned what they were doing, would be on their way up the ladder. I believe that most of this min. wage thing is another way to take money form those willing to work and give it to the &u&k offs.

The problem here is, jobs transporting, distributing, selling and servicing that "stuff" are what have replaced the traditional manufacturing and trade jobs that have been lost.

If we all suddenly decided we could live without that "stuff" then a lot more people would be out of work, which would have the snowball effect of less consumer spending on "stuff" meaning more job cuts, even less consumer spending on "stuff", and on and on. In other words, total economic collapse.

The only manufacturing jobs we could "bring back" are ones for this non-essential "stuff" and if nobody's buying it, why manufacture it. All the essentials are built by robots and that's not going away, ever.

(quoted from post at 16:04:37 11/17/16) Ive seen some houses demolished that were better than some people live in. We have a lot of "conveniences" now days that arent necessities, but how do to tell people that?....

Click to expand...

I'd say it's no ones business to tell anyone how to live, what car to buy or house to live in. We aren't a totalitarian country.

10 years ago I lived off $20/hr in a nice house with yard and kids. Money wasn't gushing, no new mercedes in the driveway, and no eating out every weekend, but we lived, were comfortable, and happy. Some people can't appreciate what they have, and can't get out of the "grass is always greener" mindset when they see what others have, and want to buy it now.

I'm 34 and have owned my house for 10 years. I never financed a car until earlier this year, but the only reason I did it instead of paying cash was to build up some credit. 3 months ago I got my first credit card, just for the freebies. Just because it has a $5000 credit limit doesn't mean I have $5000 in free dollars to spend, I'll never spend more than what's in the checking/savings accounts. Aside from my house, I'll never owe more than I can pay in cash. Keeping my wife in that mindset is a challenge sometimes, but this is why people get in trouble.

My daddy said, It's not how much you make, It's how much you spend.

Do you think a dropout should make $15/hr with minimum or no job skills?

Many people can't afford to buy a house. They spend their money on drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes. They drive cars that should be in a wrecking yard.

(quoted from post at 14:16:09 11/17/16)
I'd fault them for it. Most people don't know how to live within their means these days, and the rest have no concept of a savings account.

The way I think of it is this. Lets say there's 4 areas of life, house, car, vacations, food. Pick 1 to be above average, and the rest to be in the middle. If you like to eat out all the time, at all fancy places, put the rest in the average category, and save the remainder. It may sound like an over-simplification, but nice stuff does drive us to do better in life. But going over the top on everything, leaves most with no savings and leading an empty life working 24/7 to pay for it.

Click to expand...

I agree that there is fault in buying what they can't afford or ever expect to afford. But what I was refering to is someone who CAN afford it.

As to the OP The living wage varies a lot across the country. In NAR I can comfortably live on $25K a year and buy a modest home, car and pay my bills without any help. That doesn't mean that I can travel the world but I can live nicely.
In other parts of the country that wouldn't even pay rent on a 1 bedroom apartment much less pay bills.

Want to see your tax dollars at work? Go to Northern Virginia and check out the 'bargain' houses starting in the 800,000 range and up.The place is full of them.

I think everyone has their own definition of a living wage. The government tries to define it but I don't think they can take into account peoples desires. We live a fairly simple life, typically drive older cars that are paid for, have older cell phones, basic cable, etc. Other friends spend every dime to have the newest car and cell phone, best vacation and such. They live paycheck to paycheck so their living wage is quite high compared to ours. However, we have a substantial amount in savings and investment vehicles they don't. I am 54 and semi retired, wife is 49 and has her time in with the state to retire when she wants to.

And they're creeping south like a movie map showing the spread of Nazi Germany across Europe.

Bought my place new in 2000 paid cash saved up for it.
Since then the money I would have paid in interest was put into a savings account as well as what I could add too it.
This yr bought a second house with cash that I now rent out get 5 times my money back from the rent than sitting in the bank at these interest rates.
Still put what I would have paid in interest in savings as well as the rental income and will buy another house a few yrs from now and still won't have a mortgage payment and never will.
Everything I own is mine and never paid a dime in interest on any of it
and I do that and have never made more than 20,000 a yr and no credit cards
it's all in living within your means

4WDTOM your tax idea, is wrong. "If they are paying more taxes the folks with the smaller reasonable size homes will have to pay less for the same income for the town". The town or county just spends more money. Most counties have more tax dollars rolling in than ever. Ever hear of them lowering property taxes? Nope it all "There is a new school to be built, more employees wage increases, International trucks aren't good enough for hauling gravel, better buy Peterbilts. The list never ends!

You're "owned" until it's bought & paid for....the rest is subjective.

Well i can tell ya that we don't make enough , but we squeak by . No way we can get a new car and as for a new truck for me not in this life time . So i am stuck with my 95 and just keep on fixen it . New home nope that ain't happening . And that SUV you showed for 53and change you ain't seen nothing as i saw a JEEP what ever it was that had a sticker of 84 and change . I had the war dept.'s car over at the dealers for some warranty work only because (1) my scan tool would not tell me what was wrong so i had then scan it since my scan tool needs up graded . So they tell me what is wrong and i said ok lets see how much the parts are going to cost me Well the one part was list for just around 750 and the other was 4 something LIST , my cost was 435 for the one and 207 for the other , Ouch . My friend the service manager say BUT i can work magic and make all but a 150 bucks go away and we will install the new parts program them as they need programed , So ok you do the work . While i was there waiting i got looking around and they had a NEW 3500 Goat cab and Chassis 4x4 and i even liked the color till i looked inside , it was a slush box Not for me . Now i am just killing time when one of the new hotshot fast talking weasels descends on me armed with a plate and keys insisting that we go for a ride . Had a hard time tryen to get him to understand the meaning of NO . Now for just the small amount of 54318 dollars and change PLUS TAX , TITLE , PERP and DOC fees i could have that truck . I asked him if he was on COKE or Crack . That kind of money on a set of wheels that will never make you a dime . And cost you untold amounts of money once the warranty runs out . BUT people just gotta have it just like the big homes and all the frills just got to have it . Fine if you have the bucks BUT what happens when you get sick or your big high payen job goes bye bye . Same with farming i can do a lot of farming with old stuff that i can fix . I learned a long time ago that that corn plant did not care that it got planted with my old 1240 pulled by a rag 706 gas or that it got sprayed with a 250 dollar sprayer and when it was ready to come off it did not mind going thru a 657.50 combine and everything was paid for so when we were getting a 1.97 a bushel i got to keep my 1.97 a bushel and not have to run to my friendly banker and beg him to except and interest payment on that note and beg for more money to do this all over again plus figure out how to pay for that new tractor , tillage tools , combine and them two semi's that i just had to have. Today nothing is forsure and why stick your head on the chopping block as you could walk into work and have the bomb dropped on ya that OH we will be closing the doors at the end of the week or Ah we sold to tis other company and you will have to set down with them as to what pay level they will pay you and when you do set down with the management they tell you that they will only pay you HALF of what you were making and no benny's for a year so here sign here or there is the door .

Mine have been going down for several years after I told them that I didn't live in a house (actually fancier than) the first house John showed. I live in the same frame house I built (with my wife and 3 kids) 37 years ago and it is not worth what they are and hence not to be taxed at the same square footage rate. Appraiser listened and the rest is history. Actually, my taxes are half what they were about 10 years ago when the NTX. area had a housing boom.

It's funny, ever since I got out of high school I have lived on my own, bought my first house before I was 30 even though I have a blue collar job. My son is 31 now and he has never been able to live on his own. He's had to share an apartment to make ends meet and when the other guy moved out my son had to move back home with us. Unlike me he was an honor roll student but has never been able to find a real career. Currently he delivers for a large lumber company chain.

I looked up a few locations I've lived from that MIT study. Seems moderately accurate depending on location of course.

When I was a lot younger, I had the luck to live in some obscure places. Like Spain, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Mexico. I can say from my experience that all Americans live way, way, way over 'a living wage'. A few miles from my house, out by the interstate there's a new storage facility going up. They have a waiting list for spaces already. We(collectively) have so much extra junk, we're willing to pay someone else to keep it in a box lest we may need that antique pedal sewing machine someday. Not kidding, I saw one in a storage place not long ago.

I'm sure there are people in the US below the poverty line. I'm sure there are a few people out there who go to bed hungry once in a while. But - lets face reality. Even our poor have cell phones, and plenty of them suffer from obesity. Hard to have any empathy for someone who says they are 'poor' when they weigh 300Lbs, driving a fairly new Toyota, and have a new Android phone with data.

As a country we are wealthy beyond measure. The tiny pockets of abject poverty in N AZ, and the back hollers of MS or WV don't represent the fabulous wealth of the rest of us.

I grew up city poor, but I didn't know it until I was about 14. I bought my first GF a coke at the movies, and I saved for more than a week so I could splurge on that for her(she was worth it). Real Coke! In a real plastic cup! With real ice!! I had to defer on the popcorn but she understood.

All of us have a lot of stuff we don't need. Me too. I'd say I'm guilty about it, but since I made every dime I have now from the work of my two hands, and brain, I won't be false modest. We bought our dream home about 25 years ago. It looks a little like that first pic. Kids grew up in it. I'm still sitting in it long after the kids have moved on. I don't need it, but I still love coming home, and take pride in my assets.

When I go for a drive in the sports car, sometimes I think back to the first bike I had. It came out of a landfill, where my dad grabbed it and tossed in the DeSoto. We took it home, fixed it up, and washed it. I think he had to buy a new inner tube, and maybe a seat post. I loved that bike, and took care of it like it was gold. There's a picture of me on that bike in my album, and I can look at it anytime. Then I look at the car I'm in, blasting down the highway, stereo pumping out the Kinks, leather, steel, aluminum, and it all seems - surreal. Yeah, living wage alright.

I build the truck in the picture. I am not in debt paid cash for the wife's 2016 4x4 extended cab silverado. Just because one person doesn't want it or want to finance it doesn't make it wrong. I bought her the new truck , for my piece of mind. I now drive her 03 4x4 extended cab silverado to work, and let my 03 1 ton silverado rest. By the way that truck is towards the low end of prices. World class ride built with texas pride (I am forever a buckeye though).

(quoted from post at 20:59:54 11/17/16) My daddy said, It's not how much you make, It's how much you spend.

Do you think a dropout should make $15/hr with minimum or no job skills?

Many people can't afford to buy a house. They spend their money on drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes.

Click to expand...

No dropout should make that much, unless they have some skill they've developed.

You forgot lottery tickets and tattoos.

According to studies, a "living wage" in NY State is $32.00 an hour. Not many people making that up here.

They drive cars that should be in a wrecking yard.

Click to expand...

Someone has to buy them when they're new, though, or else there won't be any cars that should be in a wrecking yard. They'll all be in the wrecking yard. It's getting so you need a 6-figure income just to afford a new car.

There's no such thing as a basic car anymore. Federal mandates you have airbags, loads of emissions equipment, tire pressure monitors, and pretty soon even rear view cameras. Power windows, power locks, deluxe stereo is standard because the crank window cars sat on the lots. It's only $10 more a month, may as well live it up a little! What they miss is $10 a month more here and $10 a month more there suddenly becomes $200 a month on the payment...

Last time I looked I live in the United States of America. If someone can make the payments it's none of my business what they drive or how big/expensive their house is. Do I look at some of those things and wonder why? Well I do. But then most of you don't live here. Here is the "heart of the lakes" area of MN where the highest concentration of lakes are. My county has over 1400 lakes. That means a lot of lake places. 40 years ago it was mostly small rustic cabins. Today it's 400,000 plus homes. And yea, some are well over 1,000,000! And these are peoples summer homes! They open them up in May and close them down right after Labor day! Some with 3-4 boats in the water that each one was over 30,000K on lakes that are 3X5 miles or so. As long as they are making the payments and not dropping the burden on us tax payers I'm good with that. Not uncommon in the spring or summer to see 80K SUV's pulling 40K boats. These people dump a ton of money into our local economy. I have friends who own businesses who rely on these people to make a decent living. I know others who rely on these people for jobs! No my wife's sister and her husband can spend money they don't have! Gotta have a new car every 2 years and not a cheap one. 45-50K. Gotta take vacations with their friends too. Everything is purchased with a credit card. But they manage to make the payments. The only thing that makes it any of my business is my SIL would like to pay some of that debt down and complains about it all the time. Now we live in an old farm house. We are good with that. 200 acres. It will be paid for in another 4 years. Payments are under 500 a month. Our vehicle is an 04 we got 2 years ago with 105K on it. WE own 2 boats. One fishing boat and a runabout, both older and paid for. No credit card debt. Most often if we want something we buy it. Heck I just finished building a playhouse for our grandkids. I spent over 2K on materials. Darn thing is nearly as big as our house....well not really bit it's 12X12'. Gives me great pleasure to watch them play. But as an American it's my choice to live like this. Could I buy a new truck or utility tractor? sure. I just don't like the payments.

Rick

(quoted from post at 11:58:30 11/18/16)

(quoted from post at 20:59:54 11/17/16) My daddy said, It's not how much you make, It's how much you spend.

Do you think a dropout should make $15/hr with minimum or no job skills?

Many people can't afford to buy a house. They spend their money on drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes.

Click to expand...

No dropout should make that much, unless they have some skill they've developed.

You forgot lottery tickets and tattoos.

Click to expand...

I'm fine with anyone making any wage, just so long as it's not federally mandated. $15/hr to flip burgers because the government raises minimum wage is a reality we almost had, but lucked out 10 days ago when people spoke up.

Also, several CEO's and exec's have already commented that for $30k, they can buy a machine that will replace that burger flipper, which will pay for itself in the first year, never call out sick, do a poor job, or cause any problems in the workplace. If they tried to make $15/hr the minimum wage, you'd see McDonalds, burger king, and plenty of others turn into a glorified fast food vending machine.

Unskilled labor is not supposed to be comfortable. It's not supposed to be something you retire on. It's supposed to be where you start out, and work your way up. When you're still on your parents healthcare plan, and figuring out what you want to do with your life. Two burger flippers get married and have a combine 60k/yr income? What kind of kid wants to go to school and have to answer that question of "what do your parents do". "well we do ok, they flip burgers". What happened to personal pride and working to better yourself?

I think the biggest problem this country has is dignity has gone out the window. Pride and a sense of self worth, without having to prove it to your neighbors by buying the biggest house and most expensive cars. The spectrum used to be mixed, but now it seems most people are either at one end or the other.

When I was a kid my mom and I were looking out the kitchen window at a crew of guys digging out the ditches in front of the house (area where
we lived would be classified as a slum in today's mentality, but it was home for me). She said "Son, if you don't get out and get yourself an
education you'll be out there just like that." I heeded her words and was never sorry.