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Kohler Dying... Part 3

John M

John M

Well-known Member
Location
Nunyafn business
Im done with it. Rebuilt carb did no good, it still dies after 10 - 15 minutes of running. As a recap, Ive changed plugs, rebuilt carb, cleaned out both gas tanks, fuel lines were repalced due to age, fuel filter is new, fuel pump is new. I have spark when it dies, and choking will sometimes, if not most, keep it running long enough for me to get to the barn to work on it. I cant see this being electrical, as choking it will keep it running, but I dont know for sure thats what it is. When I got the carb on it ran fine for 10 - 15 minutes then started acting up again. I got it back to the barn and just let it sit there and run. It ran almost 5 hours before finally running out of gas, and I would go out about an hour after it sat there and each time I would try to cut, it would start dying, so back to the barn and more run time. So unless anyone had any other suggestions, it goes to the shop this afternoon.
 
FLoat and needle are new in the kit I installed yesterday. I cleaned the seat with spray cleaner after soaking the carb all night and used air to blow through it as well as using a torch tip cleaner to get in as far as I could with it. I feel confident I got that clean enough to rule that out, but thanks anyways. (Plus, to remove the bowl requires a masters in engineering to do without removing the carb.)
 
I had a Kohler on a Cub Cadet that would run for about ten minutes at a time. The fuel line had a big chunk of rubber stuck in it.
 
You replaced fuel pump and did you you replace vacuum hose to fuel pump? Also could be new fuel pump is bad. Have you checked vent on fuel cap to see if its plugged ?
 
I don't recall if it was mentioned previously but the old Kohler's were known to have issues with exhaust valve sticking. I have a few of the older cub cadets w with the k series Kohler's and I was told to run a little Marvel mystery oil in the fuel to help keep the combustion chamber clean and never had an issue.
 
Yep, new line there as well, and the new pump is pumping. I have taken the cap completely off at times, plus I can easily blow through the vent.
 
The fuel pump was indeed weak. It would pump but not enough to keep up. The new pump works great, and the filter stays around 3/4 to 7/8 full when running.
 
This engine is only 10 years old, and has less than 300 hours on it. I replaced the heads last year, but that doesnt mean something is not wrong now, but, and going by past experience, it would bend a push rod, which is what happened last year. I only have about 3 or 4 hours now on these heads. I lucked out as Im told these heads are hard to come by now.
 
I dont know about under a load, but the times it has actaull died on me, I have spark. I kept my tester with, one of those adjustable type, I think its a Thexton, and I have spark in the time it takes me to hop off, pull a wire and put it on the tester. I have checked both sides, and I have fire on each side. In fact, I forgot to take the other side off once and it actually ran on 1 cylinder. I have even opened up the gap to 040 and it will jump that gap. I thought it might be tied into the safty switched as well, but someone told me how to completel bypass those, and thats not a problem.
 
Nope! Still dying! Just hoping someone else comes upwith something I havent thought of before it goes to the shop in the morning.
Its odd though, that I ran it almost 2 hours the other day, then all of a sudden started acting up again.
 
Let me recap! Kohler CV23 engine This satrted out as what I thought was water in the fuel. Both tanks had water in the fuel. (I still dont know how that happened.) But both tanks were removed, drained, cleaned and dried. I repalced the fuel lines, and the filter, but noticed fuel wasnt staying in the filter and it was running dry. New fuel pump and the filter stays full, and I get a good stream fromthe line when removed from the carb. Engine dies after 10 - 15 minutes of running, and has ran up to 2 hours in between fits. I have repalced plugs and fuel lines, and have rebuilt the carb, and its clean. Choking will keep it running and eventually I can complely move the choke lever back to run and it will stay running. I let it sit last night running, and it never stopped, unless I tried to mow with it. I really do appreciate everybodys responce thus far!!!!!!!!
 
I suppose it could be, but I would tend to think if I had spark almost immediately after it dies, those would stil be good? Plus, choking will keep it running.
 
From reading all you have done and considering the symptoms you have described I would be having a look at the valve train.

Your symptoms point toward fuel delivery issues, but if you are adamant the carb is fine then move on to the next system.

You said it sits idling for hours just fine, then when you start to work it it goes down hill.

Only two things are changing;
1- Need for more fuel.
2- Increase in operating temperature.

Strange things can happen when components of the valve train are worn to the limits.
Expansion of components when hot can change clearances just enough to prevent a valve from fully seating, as well once the oil is hot the proper operation of the hydraulic lifters can be marginally impacted.

If for example an exhaust valve is not fully sealing when hot, the piston will not be able to draw sufficient fuel into the cylinder on the down stroke, your action of closing the choke creates a restriction of the air flow which allows more fuel to be drawn through the jet getting you back to the shop.
 

Well - you seem to have done all the right things. I would agree if the choke gets you to the barn it is likely to be a fuel problem. Before giving up I would suggest the following:

1) Add a fuel pressure gauge just before the inlet to the carb. This would rule out any restrictions in the fuel line, tank venting issues etc. I have found fuel filters do not run full - so that is not a worry item for me.

2) You have mentioned several times of cleaning the fuel inlet valve needle and seat. This valve typically fails by trapping dirt between the needle and seat preventing it from closing. This results in flooding rather than a restriction of fuel flow. If there is a restriction caused by a particle of dirt it would most likely be inside one of the carb passages. This particle floats around until it gets sucked up against an orifice (metering jet) causing a restriction of metered fuel. Stopping the engine can allow it to fall away from the jet - allowing normal operation - until it gets in the way again. I did the new fuel filter, added an electric pump etc. to no avail when I had a similar problem on my Kohler. The problem went away when I blew out the carb passages. To blow out the passages the metering jets need to be removed and use high pressure air, blow in both the forward and reverse directions.
 
A few years back I had a Kohler in a JD212 ? start dying off as they mowed the longer the mowed the worse it got. First thought clogged tank strainer. Took line off had flow and blowed back through it still same problem. I think I always showed spark but on a whim I checked the external mounted points and the gap was super close. Regapped them farther apart and all was working ! I told them to get a NEW set of points and cond. as these were over due for a change.
 
The CV23 engine should have an electric shutoff fuel solenoid in bottom of carb. If so is it opening all the way?
 
1)Dont see how that would be possible on this engine, and I agree on the filter, but now its staying pretty much full.

2) Needle is new, but seat cant be replaced, and yes I agree it would normally cause flooding, but this hole is so small something
could get trapped and restrict flow, but Im confident all of that is clean.
 
Again, heads are new. They have new valves in them as well, and the rockers and pushrods are new. There could be a problem there,
but I dont see how.
 
Everything you have posted so far points to a fuel problem.
The presence of spark when it quits would indicate that the ignition system is working OK. However, rechecking the points gap would be recommended at this point - just to be sure.
The fact that choking will get you back to the shop indicates that it is going excessively lean under load. To me, this would indicate a restriction in the fuel path somehow. Restricted needle and seat, clogged main jet, or something restricting fuel delivery. I would check the level in the float chamber when it quits. Too low would mean it is not getting fuel from the tank, pump, or lines. If it is at the correct level, restriction has to be internal to the carburetor.
As to a sticking exhaust valve, I would think that there may be a possibility there, BUT a sticking valve would have one major effect. That would be loss of compression accompanied by loss of vacuum to draw fuel through the fuel system. Therefore, in that case, choking would amplify the problem. Less vacuum, less fuel. Should be easily diagnosed with a vacuum gauge.
Taking it to the shop might get it fixed, but might also end you up with a big bill and not fixed anyways. I think you are on the right track in looking at the fuel system. I would first do some checking with a vacuum gauge and a fuel pressure gauge. See what is happening when it quits. After that, it might be a good idea to take the carb completely apart and clean out everything meticulously. Or, in the worst case, replace the carb. Also, as a thought, anything that you can prove is NOT the problem is a step closer to what IS the problem.
 
I have a Garden tractor with a Kohler engine in the same family of engines and it had problem of getting to much fuel to engine and ended up putting new carb on it. Ethanol had pitted seats so bad that they couldn't be fixed and seats are not replaceable in that carb.( part of carb housing).
 
Two things come to mind:

1. Governor spring weak or out of adjustment, and causing engine to die under load.

2. The fact that it ran fine for a bit, and then started dying makes me think a bit of dirt that was loosened when you cleaned the carb dislodged after a bit of run time and reclogged the carb. I have had this happen before. Run a small twist tie wire through all the passages to rule this out.
 
I would bite the bullet and put a new carb on it. If it had water in it for any length of time who knows what is out of kilter. I have a string trimmer with Brigs engine. I bought a carb kit and went through the whole thing just as you did only to find it didn't fix the problem. A new carb and it started on the second pull and been running great since.
 
I have one of those engines on my mower so I hope you get it fixed. Only a guess because no one else has mentioned it, but could the auto compression relief be screwing up on you.
 
Have you tried a new spark plug ? If not , try a new one , preferably the one that's recommended for that machine . I have seen them get hot and cut out or quit . I have seen them not firing under a load meaning that it might fire when screwed out and grounded but not while its screwed in under normal conditions !

Whizkid
 
An interesting way to see the fuel level as the tractor is in operation. Could be useful to ya. I'm not Familiar with your tractor so this may be completely useless as well. But I do hope it can help someone out there
Best of luck with it Byron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjEBvZEgdMY
 
I had a CC 100 with a k-241 engine. Had the same problem. I would travel downhill through my neighbors field to visit with him. Upon returning home, the engine would want to quit within a few feet of the same spot, at the edge of my back yard. This happened on every trip to my neighbor. Thought I had my own personal Bermuda triangle. Turns out, the air hole in the gas cap was plugged up. Not sure if anyone brought this up, or maybe I just missed it. ---- John
 
Thanks again for all the responses. If I didn't respond personally to you I have already tried those suggestions and mentioned them in this thread too. I'm going out shortly to try one more time to see if theres something I missed, but most likely it goes to the shop tomorrow.
 
just a thought ,i have a engine that the needle doesn't let enough gas through when at high rpm. if i throttle down just a little it never dies ,if wide open runs for 10-15 minutes . i wonder if your float needs raising or the neddle doesn't let enough gas through ,maybe sticking closed not open. so when you choke it sucks it part way open and keeps it going
 
I have read through this thread and did not see any mention of what gasoline you are using. A friend of mine who is a very good mechanic could not get his wife's car engine to run properly. He took a sample of the E10 gasoline that she was using and let it sit in a jar and separate into gasoline and ethanol. Turns out that the gasoline was actually 19% ethanol by volume. Her car was an 80's model GM, and the ECM, sensors, and engine in general were not designed to run on E20. They started buying gasoline at a different station, and walla, problem solved. Most small engine manufacturers only approve up to E10 gasoline, and if your gasoline has a higher percentage of ethanol, the carb may not work properly due to the different vapor pressure of the fuel if it has more than E10 mixture.
 
That engine has a stator instead of mag and they can act the same way as your describing if they go bad..
 
John I have.been reading your trials and attempts to solve your problem. Has anyone suggested that you might be losing compression as the engine heats up?
Just a thought.
 
Im with Determined,, Still sounds like its starving for fuel. If that motor will sit there and idle for hours and all you do is throttle it up and it runs for 10 or 15 mins fine the dies it sounds like starving for fuel..
I dont think i have read anywhere where you said How it dies. does it just slowly stop or just turn off like you turned the key off.
 
John Deere 304 has been doing the same thing. Cleaned carb, new plug, air filter, gas cap. Pulled body off to get to gas tank and removed it .Dumped all gas out of it . In the tank were small pieces of the rubber gasket from the old cap.They would get sucked into the pickup tube and kill engine. Cleaned them out and no more stalling.
 
A. Have you pulled the tin off and cleaned the fins? Is it overheating?
Does it go Blap Blap Blap while it is trying to quit? (Valve sticking when overheated).
B. Spray some ether around the carb flange/manifold gasket area while running.
See if that changes rpm.
Potmetal flanges warp; especially when bolted to hot cast iron.
I've seen asbestos gaskets and heat deflectors mounted between carb/manif.
 
It will hiccup once or twice, and I know by now to immediately cut the deck off and head back to the barn. Within seconds, it begins cutting out, IF I don't play with the choke, as in getting about half way closed, as it runs longer I eventually have to open and close the choke pretty fast to keep it running, which on a ZTR is hard to do and drive it at the same time. I also reduce engine speed. Once I'm back to the barn, and stopped, I can feather the choke for a few seconds and keep it running maybe 50 percent of thetime, other times it dies. Within a couple of minutes, I can restart it, and it will sit there and run until its out og gas, or I go back to cutting, then the whole thing starts over again.
 
I will be taking it to the repair shop in a few days. I was going to take it this morning, but he was backed up and told me to bring it in then. Thecarbs I have been able to find are either used, which could also be bad, or are not the factory type carb that I have.
 
I had an engine years ago on a new Harley Davidson snowmobile that had electronic ignition. It would idle all day but try to use it and it would want to quit running but would go back to idle. They replaced the stator and it run great after that. Myself I would still look at carb. as being your problem and you may have to replace it to get it to run right.
 
Don't forget about the coil or coils! Could be when there cool there ok but after they heat up they can weakin. Worth a shot at this point! Matt
 
Sounds a lot like the kohler on my daughters cub cadet. When it would completely die I would pull the filter and blow it out and it would be ok for a little bit. Stopped by my local snapper dealer and talked to the mechanic there. They had some ethanol treatment/cleaner stuff called mechanic in a bottle he uses there and swears by so I tried it. I used twice the reccomended amount and it took about two hours running cause I didn't dump the old fuel but it cleared up completely and runs like new now. He told me they went from rebuilding the carb on almost every mower that came in to hardly ever taking one apart just by dumping the old fuel and adding this stuff and letting it run a while out back. Yes I know it's snake oil but it has worked very well for me.
 
Anybody guess float level yet? Is there an easy way to adjust that?

How about air leaking in around the gaskets or a sloppy throttle shaft.
 
I have not been following this entire problem but do have something for you to check that I have run into.
39715.jpg

If your air cleaner is like this one, check the fuel line from the pump to the carb. Make sure it is not pinched by the air cleaner base.
I read where you replaced all fuel lines. If the tank has a pickup tube that comes out near the top of the tank, have you blown air back through that line.
I worked on one that had trash in that tube. If you have done so disregard my thoughts.

Rodney 8)
 
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