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Any Gun Enthusiasts Out There

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Bobl1958

Well-known Member
My Boss's wife inherited some guns from her father, who recently passed away.

It seems that back in the 20's and 30's the Gov issued guns to banks to aid in repelling the Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde type of criminals. She said there is a pistol and a rifle, she thought. I asked her to get me pictures and info, but just wondered if anyone knew of this and what info you could provide. She is wondering worth. I am assuming they are in pretty good condition, knowing her father. Her father was a banker.

Also, her father bought some type of a machine gun back in the 50's or 60's like the one he carried in WW2. Not sure of which one yet, but either a BAR or Thompson I would assume. The question is, can she sell this gun? I would guess there are no papers and I would assume her Dad did not have a license for it. What would she need to do to either keep or sell this machine gun?

Just hoping there might be someone who is versed in a case like this, as her and her husband are certainly not. Thanks in advance - Bob
 
I am not sure about the guns issued to the bank, but if she has a BAR or a Thompson sub machine gun, you have to have a special federal permit to own them. You almost have to promise your first born in order to get them now and they are not cheap.
 
The "Machine gun" if it is truly an automatic weapon could be worth a lot or it may only be worth a trip to prison.

In 1986, Congress enacted a law banning the possession and transfer of all machine guns except machine guns manufactured prior to May 19, 1986, and machine guns possessed by or manufactured for governmental entities.


With certain limited exceptions, the NFA requires anyone transferring a machine gun to register it with ATF. (The NFA put this responsibility, along with the $200 tax discussed below, on the transferor, rather than the transferee, in an effort to deter all transfers of machine guns. In order to register a machine gun, a transferor must obtain authorization from ATF prior to the transfer in accordance with ATF regulations.


The sticky is registering a previously unregistered machine gun. My understanding is you can't do it (if wrong someone will surely correct me) - that's why the price of "legal" automatic rifles are so high - there are only so many legal automatic weapons out there and the number of people that would like to buy one keeps growing. That's why a new semi automatic AR15 can be bought for $600-$2000 and a used automatic M16 is $10,000 to $30,000.
 
The permit is only $200 along with other restrictions. The real cost is if you want to buy an automatic weapon. Thompsons and BARs are premiums. I believe the going rate for a transferable BAR is in the $30,000+ range.
 
I believe you are correct. If it wasn't registered to '86 it can't be anymore. Its now big time prison bait. They probably shouldn't even mention owning it and maybe even talk to a lawyer on how to turn it in without incrimination.
 
That "machine gun" might be a non-firing replica. Or a semi-auto copy; plenty of semi-auto Thompsons have been sold over the years.

If it's real and functional and her father didn't have a Class III license for it, her safest choice is to simply turn it in to local law enforcement.
 
Depending on what it is you could buy a semi auto receiver for it and replace the "full auto" receiver. You keep the original barrel, wood stock and most other parts. Then destroy the original receiver (and trigger group?) and pretend you never knew it existed. It goes from being a rifle that could put you prison for 10 years to being a legal part of history. Problem is you would probably at least need to be able to take the gun apart as no reputable gun smith would tough it in the original condition.
 
Is there a "legal" way to turn it over? She is now the legal owner (or illegal owner). Having a good story behind how you came to own an unregistered automatic weapon doesn't excuse the fact that a law has been broken. Given the current hostility towards the Constitution by the DOJ I wouldn't want to be the one turning in such a weapon.
 
>Is there a "legal" way to turn it over?

IANAL, so I can't answer that question. But I don't need to be a lawyer to know that retaining possession of an unlicensed Class III firearm is a serious federal rap.

At any rate, people do routinely turn in illegal firearms and other contraband without being prosecuted. Obviously this is an area where it would be a good idea to consult an attorney.
 
call ruben mendiola he is a legal full auto firearm dealer and can advise you. 866-632-9268. belive you can contac a gun museum and let them display it under lend from the family. a museum that comes to mind is the j.m. davis gun and historical museum in Claremore oklahoma
 
All that has been discuss here is right. If you have a full Auto you better have the Class 3 paper work. I would have her go to a good gun shop (FFL) and find out just what you have. The maker , model, caliber and serial number. Then go from there. I deal with these all the time.
Untitled URL Link
 
Sounds to me like the best course of action would be to cut that machine gun up in little pieces and take the pieces to a recycle place - or just put the pieces in a recycle dumpster. If it was never registered, it didn't ever exist, did it? If the gun disappears, no one will ever know it existed. With all the heat about automatic weapons right now, I would not want it anywhere around.

Somebody gave my friend one of those non-working replica machine guns. He left it lay on the back seat of his car and went through the drive-in teller at the bank. Cops stopped him before he got 2 blocks from the bank. He had some tall explaining to do!
 
I would hate to see it cut up. You could turn it in to the AFT they will take care of it. They are very good about someone not knowing what they have - just got to turn it in. No charges. Now it you know what you have and try to sell it - that where you get into trouble big time.
 
Thanks for the replies. After quizzing my Boss a little more, the way he describes it, it is probably a Thompson. He said it is fully auto as he remembers shooting it when he was dating his wife. (Probably 40+ years ago).

It would appear that the consensus is that they would not be able to purchase the license for it in this situation, assuming it is a Thompson? I haven't seen it so the info is a little sketchy. Thanks - Bob
 
BTW, none of the family knows anything even remotely about guns. The Father wasn't a collector, just had these. The Father passed away several years ago, and the Mother just passed last year is why they are going through things. Thanks again - Bob
 
Laws on "machine guns " vary by state. The best course of action would be to contact a reputable firearms dealer in the state of residence to find out legal options. A dealer that has a license to sell these would be best. Some states have an outright ban : some do allow ownership with a license.
 
I believe there is a law covering. Weapons brought home from WWII. My uncle brought home a BAR When he died my aunt called the DPS about it. They worked with the Govt office and she was allowed to keep it. I could be wrong I was only 12 when he died. I do remember it would cut down a small tree. Best to contact the ATF explain how she got it. What does she need to do.
 
I did some work at a police department that has two Thompson 1928M1's from the '20's bank robbery era that are fully automatic with 100 round drums. The police chief brought them out to show me, handed me one. Heavy. Very heavy. Quality is incredible. They are or were thinking of selling them. Have been offered $40,000 a piece for them by real collectors but turned them down. Says they take them out to a range once or so per year and fire them off. Because they are fully automatic, he said that it takes a Class 4 license to own or be in possession of them, which I've never seen listed (Class 4), but also never seen no such thing as a fully automatic listed as can be owned either. Anyway, he says that ATF inspectors show up at least once per year to inspect them, and that they BETTER BE THERE. What I wouldn't give to have one .45LC.

Somebody else, a contractor near me was tearing down a home found one buried in the walls from the same era and notified the ATF. That was the end of that gun. They confiscated it.

Mark
 
For goodness sakes don't cut it up! That is totally stupid and going in goose step with the PC correct left idiots. There are enough states that allow ownership of full auto and do some research before everybody starts opening their big mouths! A firearm like that is worth THOUSANDS and if you go through a third class dealer it will find a new home. Don't give it to the D -blank blank cops cause they will disappear it into someones private underground collection, if you get my drift. Know a cop like that and he has several hidden items. People start cringing in their shoes and there are a lot of old wifes tails! If you don't feel right then do not take possestion of it. Another thing you can do is go to a big gun show. Almost every dealer there is a third class person. Anyone of them would be happy to help and THEY DO KNOW their stuff. You wouldn't believe what shows up at the door when someone is cleaning out their parents home! I have seen some of it. All kinds of WW11 stuff.
 

My thoughts also... I have several buds that have acquired a collection of full auto weapons. They are all legal they paid there money for the permits to own them. One has a Thomson but I can not say if its full auto.
 
I wouldn't trust anybody's 40-year-old recollections as to whether or not the gun is full auto. Certainly not someone who is admittedly not gun-literate. The only way to be sure what it is is to take it to someone knowledgeable on the particular type of gun.

If it turns out to be an original, full-auto Thompson submachine gun, then they better start digging for whatever paperwork they can find for it. Without a license or other proof of the ownership chain, law enforcement can reasonably assume the gun is stolen property subject to confiscation.
 
> What I wouldn't give to have one .45LC.

Those Thompsons must be rare indeed if they're chambered in .45 Long Colt. Maybe that's why ya gotta have a CLASS 4 license! Crank it up to ELEVEN, baby!
 
Third class dealers? Are those the guys that sell out of their trunks and write bad checks?

There is no such thing as a class III NFA weapons license. When a Title 1 FFL dealer pays what is known as a Special Occupation Tax, he then becomes a SOT that can then deal in NFA/Title 2 weapons. SOTs have several classes too and they are based on the type of FFL license you currently hold. The term Class 3 comes from when a normal Type 1 (standard dealer) FFL holder pays his SOT tax. He becomes a Type 3 SOT hence the misnomer term Class 3.

The only question here is if the automatic weapon was registered in compliance with the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act, and if not then can it be - which I can find nothing that allows for that. Doesn't matter what the state laws are they are all written around the federal law. No FFL dealer that wants to stay out of prison will touch a automatic weapon that isn't registered.
 
Agreed, it is entirely legal to collect and own full auto weapons - but the federal government has a very specific set of rules and all legal weapons are registered with the BATF (about 186,000 in total). State laws vary greatly but ownership is surprisingly easy in most state for the law abiding with deep pockets.


There has been only one crime recorded by a legally possessed automatic weapon since 1986 - committed by a police officer.
 
Takes a special museum and a "Form 10" transfer. Then you have a side agreement that the gun can be returned to you (or your heirs) if the law changes and an individual can legally own the gun. The museum may or may not agree to those terms. Even worse if the wrong trustees someday run the museum they may elect to have it destroyed.
 
The ATF is going to destroy it......In my opinion, giving it to them is about the most stupid thing someone could do........
 
No license or dealer requirements are needed to own an NFA firearm or device. It is a simple tax stamp for each gun or item and cost $200 each. You really need to verify if this gun is registered and hopefully for the love of god you will find that he registered this gun and find the paper work. If the gun was not registered, he was in violation of Federal law and whoever is in possession of it now is in violation too.

The catch about this gun is whether it was registered or not. The bad thing is if he had possession of that gun for as long as you think he did, he had plenty of time to have it legally registered. If it was registered the gun can be transferred at no cost to the executor/heir. There is a grace period to keep a registered NFA firearm until it can be transferred but it must be taken care of promptly within reason. You are not even allowed to transfer the firearm to a licensed dealer without or unless the proper NFA transfer requirements are met.

[b:3a1814f69b]If there are unregistered NFA firearms in the estate, these firearms are contraband and cannot be registered by the estate. The executor of the estate should contact the local ATF office to arrange for the abandonment of the unregistered firearms.[/b:3a1814f69b]
 
Unless it was registered in '86, IT IS ILLEGAL....PERIOD........NO QUESTIONS ASKED......

Can it be turned in without repercussions - YES happens more often than you'd think.......Will it be destroyed? - YES, IT WILL BE DESTROYED........... Is that enough to make any red blooded American sick? - YES..............Is it wrong when a right that isn't to be infringed, is infringed upon, and causes a loss of a heirloom held onto, and not registered by someone who refused to follow an illegal law as our Declaration of Independence, and Constitution both said we should do? - YES Would I keep it if it were mine? - Your dang right I would.

There are thousands of them out there, that were hidden away just like this one was, and the anti crowd are just dying to have these pieces of history destroyed just to make them feel good about themselves. Personally I say they can feel good on their own, without my help.....

That being said, tell them to keep their mouths quite, DO NOT CALL, DO NOT CONTACT ANYBODY, DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO 'FIGURE OUT' WHAT TO DO WITH IT. Why, because far too many people can't keep their mouths shut. So, tell them to put it in a safe where no one will ever see it. ONLY take it out when things turn around in this Country and the '86 NFA act, (((that caused any made prior to '86 to have to be registered and that had a cut off date for said registration)))) is reversed........or when all heck breaks loose, and it's needed.

BUT, before you tell them anything, DELETE THIS THREAD, and pretend it never existed..........
 
The advice to remain quiet or not tell anybody can be rather foolish. The advice you need now is legal advice and I would suggest you get that from an attorney, preferably from one familiar with the NFA.
" Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself. "

If you still want to operate "under the radar" you can probably have the executor contact the local ATF branch and they might be able to see if the deceased individual had any NFA items registered. Doing this would raise a red flag but IMO they aren't out to bust anyone in this situation, but you never know ( they might be bored haha). I would think this step could be done by an attorney too. The option to keep the firearm is still possible even though it was never registered but it would have to modified specifically to make permanently un-operable.[/quote]
 
Heard about this exact scenario. Full auto Vietnam era M16's, several, shipped home in pieces. Came time to get rid of them they were converted to semi auto and sold legally.

No reason to get the Feds involved and lose money.

The only way to stop bad guys with guns is good guys with guns.

Those who hammer their swords into plows will slave for those that didn't.
 
I could never find any mention anywhere about a Class 4 license, but I'm pretty sure that's what he said and why I tried looking it up at the time. Maybe I heard him wrong, but it's the "Class 4" that stuck out in my mind because I don't have any firearms anything like those two and was curious about what it would take to own or possess one. Maybe a "Class 4" never existed or maybe was a thing of the past? I have no idea on that other than I couldn't find any reference to it. .45 ACP are what those two are, but if there'd been a .45LC, would've been able to cut through a brick wall.

Mark
 
There is no license needed for individuals to own an NFA weapon, these are considered "class 3" weapons. The term "class 3" comes from the type of FFL license needed to be a dealer for NFA weapons (Type 3 FFL). The paper work a person needs to fill out to own NFA weapons is the BATF form 4, which is basically a tax form. Maybe he said or was referring to the Form 4.
 
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