New tractors

VADAVE · Jul 11, 2016

Was just reading on the another site about John Deere saying that farmers have an implied license to operate their tractors but not to repair them. Guess I'm fortunate I do my farming with old stuff. That attitude by John Deere will cost them their business. Even the government is beginning to wise up, you can't have equipment in the field that you can't fix on the spot and right now! Think about it--you're in a shooting war and the tank, personnel carrier, ship, or whatever breaks is the manufacture going to have a technician on site to dive into the device fix it RIGHT NOW? Now apply that logic to your farm when it's threatening to storm. When I still worked for the Navy I would buy a piece of equipment if the company tried to tell me the Navy didn't own the software I paid to develop and couldn't fix it.

Cost of old equipment will go up and so will demand in direct relationship to the decline of the new stuff.

Mike Groom · Jul 11, 2016

Probably a lawyer with nothing to do and tired of chasing ambulances came up with that!

Deere Scotty · Jul 11, 2016

ITS TRUE! Do a search of people suing automakers... Chevrolet, & Ford at last count was telling certain people if not everybody that it is in fine print they cant work on vehicles because they actually don't own a vehicle they have paid for!!! What they call backyard mechanics. It was a 60 minutes, maybe 20/20 report from a couple years ago is how I found out. Report went on to say they were trying to stop sells of the computer encoders to individual people so they couldn't read the error codes; But congress wouldn't have it!

ss55 · Jul 11, 2016

Is this on leased machines?

Dick2 · Jul 11, 2016

We need to apply Shakespeare's remedy for lawyers.

VADAVE · Jul 11, 2016

And now it has spread to agricultural equipment manufacturers, specially John Deere. I found, when I was working, it was the programmers that were pushing this. These programmers think that if someone hires them to do a job (programming) that what they do doesn't belong to the company. The first company to stop this was AT&T; They put in the paper work you sign to get hired. And the companies that have spun off AT&T during the breakup still have the clause in their paperwork. Several other software producing companies also has it, Verizon does, General Dynamics does, Microsoft I can't speak to since I haven't seen the paperwork or spoken to an employee but do you hear anything from an employee?
As I was retiring from the government it was being considered for their contracts as a standard clause that when a product was bought that included the software. I always insisted that what I bought had the software and there were notes inserted into every subroutine describing what was done in the software. When we accepted the product and inspected the hardware AND the software. If the descriptions weren't there the product was rejected. Can you imagine the consternation and rage. But I can be pretty stubborn.

Andy Martin · Jul 11, 2016

(quoted from post at 13:48:06 07/11/16) Is this on leased machines?

No, it's on owned equipment. The automakers are into it too. Their argument is that the electronic components are so complex that repair and especially modification by non-experts can be unsafe. With electronic throttle control and automatic braking, they have a point. I don't like the idea, and I'm not going to comply but it may come to a point where you can't buy some parts , only have the dealer install them. I'm liking my non-computer equipment more and more, including the 12 valve Cummins.

oldtanker · Jul 11, 2016

(quoted from post at 11:51:29 07/11/16) Was just reading on the another site about John Deere saying that farmers have an implied license to operate their tractors but not to repair them. Guess I'm fortunate I do my farming with old stuff. That attitude by John Deere will cost them their business. Even the government is beginning to wise up, you can't have equipment in the field that you can't fix on the spot and right now! Think about it--you're in a shooting war and the tank, personnel carrier, ship, or whatever breaks is the manufacture going to have a technician on site to dive into the device fix it RIGHT NOW? Now apply that logic to your farm when it's threatening to storm. When I still worked for the Navy I would buy a piece of equipment if the company tried to tell me the Navy didn't own the software I paid to develop and couldn't fix it.

Cost of old equipment will go up and so will demand in direct relationship to the decline of the new stuff.

No, the manufacturer isn't going to send someone to fix t but the crew of a M1A1 tank or Brady Fighting Vehicle can't fix most of it either. The fire control system and engine controls are all computerized and requires diagnostic equipment to troubleshoot. So on the attack the crew stays with the tank and waits for the mechanics. In the defense the crew stays with the tank IF the line holds and if not they destroy the tank in place and either fall back on foot or catch a ride.

So you say that's been in the works for years. Guess the guys with JD stuff will have to hire a JD trained mechanic to be on the farm anytime JD equipment is being operated!

Rick

markct · Jul 11, 2016

I hate it, but I do believe it's just the modern version of keeping the independent small mechanic out, manufacturers have been trying to do that for years, tamper proof screws, torx before it was popular, odd shaped fasteners etc. Secret procedures, gauges, fittings specs etc. The software is just the latest and most easily monitored thing in a long run of it

Brown Swiss · Jul 11, 2016

I always wondered why the vehicles didn't just put an error code on the dash, seems my brother said his 9600 combine will tell him error codes, but the companies are smarter then that I guess.

Texasmark1 · Jul 11, 2016

I have a 2011 Silverado and a Clear Texas Title of ownership. I own mine! So says the Republic of Texas.

JDNewbie · Jul 11, 2016

I guess if "they" "own" it, then "they" can pay the taxes on it!

Traditional Farmer · Jul 11, 2016

Friend of mine that sells new Kubotas tells me he seeing more farmers all the time totally rebuilding older tractors rather than buying new ones.I use older stuff just keep buying more just like what I have use some for parts and run the others.The 10 or 12 tractors I use regularly didn't cost me near what a new one comparable to the biggest ones I have would cost.If I was a farmer back in 1975 I'd be the envy of the neighborhood with the tractors and equipment I have now(LOL)

Andy Martin · Jul 11, 2016

(quoted from post at 19:16:58 07/11/16) I guess if "they" "own" it, then "they" can pay the taxes on it!

Excellent point.

FBH44 · Jul 12, 2016

IF that's true it is a big mistake, IMHO. Who has the real incentive for repairs, the farmer who made it half way back to the barn, or the kid sitting in the A/C in the office behind the computer screen?

showcrop · Jul 12, 2016

There was a major discussion about this here a year or so ago. I read a few months ago about private technicians being aboard USN ships while on regular missions, as in South China Sea, in order to maintain the systems.

sotxbill · Jul 12, 2016

Was that not in respect to the software on that machine?? JD does not want to release its software so that others can copy it, modify it or resell it. And in respect to the software will NOT release it,,

you have a right to use it.. You do not have a right to modify it or to the code inside the computer. It is THEIR intellectual property. This is a standard practice in the industry. And now they have software controlling LOTS OF STUFF... more than just the engine controls.

BarnyardEngineering · Jul 12, 2016

My understanding is this pertains to the ELECTRONIC portions of the tractor. You own the tires, gears, frame, axles, engine block, etc.. What you don't own is the software running on the computer, you are only using it under license. That's pretty standard. If you don't like it you better throw away the computer you're using to read this because you don't own a single piece of software running on that computer. You own a license to use it.

All this talk of "if the tractor breaks down" is silly. If the tractor has an electronic fault, you're not going to be able to fix it!!!

Flat tire? Broken belt? Snapped shear pin? Sure, you'll fix that in the field and get on with the work.

If the tractor stops dead in the middle of the field and won't move when there's hay to make and the rain is coming, are you REALLY going to fix that in the field? No, you're going to get another tractor, drag the dead one out of the way, and get the job done. Whether it's a 4020, or an 8130.

Traditional Farmer · Jul 12, 2016

All the more reason to rebuild old tractors and not buy a new one.

ss55 · Jul 12, 2016

There are a lot of little details that are left out, that raises three questions for me:

1. What is a repair and what is a modification?
To me a repair keeps the machine within the original specifications, using original, licensed, or approved parts. A modification changes the machine. Rebooting the software would be a repair. Changing the software would be a modification.

2. What is proprietary design/software verses custom design/software?
Proprietary design is developed and paid for by the manufacturer and is sometimes patented by the manufacturer. Custom design is paid for by the customer, to the customer's specifications and is sometimes patented by the customer.

3. What are the consequences of making your own repairs or modifications?
If someone cranks up the hydraulic pressure from the factory 2500 PSI to 4000 PSI does that simply void the warranty?
If someone manufactures and sells replacement parts, update kits, or modified software can the original manufacturer sue for licensing fees or to shut down sales?
If a modified machine causes injuries, deaths, fires or pollution, is the manufacturer liable for some of the damages? Does the manufacturer have some responsibility to try to prevent unsafe modifications or to prevent unsafe operation of a machine? Sometimes manufacturers need to reduce their exposure to risk ("cover their back ends").

The Dukester · Jul 12, 2016

Your government has imposed severe restrictions on all American engine manufacturers to produce products that emit exhaust gases that meet the requirements of those restrictions. The engines must have complicated electronic systems to control the fuel mixture and injection timing along with obtaining the maximum power output to be competitive. Reliability and durability are apparently somewhat compromised to meet the regulations and sales criteria.

fixerupper · Jul 12, 2016

How many years can they take 'ownership' of a certain tractor? Is this like a patent that runs out after so many years?

showcrop · Jul 12, 2016

(quoted from post at 17:10:45 07/12/16) How many years can they take 'ownership' of a certain tractor? Is this like a patent that runs out after so many years?

I'll bet that it will be right around when the warrantee runs out. "Here ya go bud, It's all yours now"

jimg.allentown · Jul 13, 2016

Seems to me that selling a tractor to a farmer for over a quarter of a million dollars, then telling him that he does not have the right to use it as he sees fit is JUST PLAIN WRONG.

My take on "intellectual property" is that if you want to "sell" it, you need to give the buyer some value from it, and you cannot continue to "own" it while in another person's possession.

There needs to be some legislation to define what you really own when you buy a car, tractor, combine, or whatever that contains software.

Going back in time, there was a time when Ford Motor Company was forced to divest itself of its Autolite division under the Sherman Anti-Trust laws. We seem to be returning to that time, and there WILL be reached a "tipping point" when the consumer will no longer be sold "smoke and mirrors" with no rights attached. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

David G · Jul 13, 2016

What site was that on?

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