Pole barn restoration

Pete in Holland MI · Jun 27, 2016

Hey all -

My son is looking at a piece of property that has an older pole barn on it. The poles appear to be creosote treated. Several of the posts are rotted at ground level 50-90% thru.

Is it feesible to jack up that post, cut off a couple feet above the ground, dig the old rotted post out, sink a new treated post cut to the right length, and reinforce the joint with some 2x6's glued & screwed on either side ?

Lotta work, but they really love the property, and would like to save the barn rather than knocking it down. A lot of the sheet steel needs replacement, but the rest of the structure appears solid.

Thoughts ?

Pete

Mike M · Jun 27, 2016

Or go in right next to the existing pole and bolt it to it. Also depends on how the old poles are in the ground ? Like if someone put concrete around them it will really be hard to dig by them or remove them.

ohiojim · Jun 27, 2016

dig down beside the bad post and set another as high as necessary and bolt the 2 together,..not a whole lot involved....I had 3 porch posts rotted and I cut them off about 2 feet above ground bought one of the vinyl covers that go over 4x4 post set it under my old post and filled it with secrete...works great,...your idea will work fine also..

4520BW · Jun 27, 2016

I use so good ol fashioned post diggers and dug down along the old pole and then set a new one next to it and bolted them together with all thread.

FBH44 · Jun 27, 2016

MaKE SURE you get enough concentration of chemicals in treated posts. Just bec ause it says "Ground Contact", that is not enough. Make SURE you get at lest this amount of chemical. My experience is less than this lasts 15 years then the termites get into it;
?NatureWood? Alkaline Copper Quaternary ACQ
Minimum 0.60 pcf ACQ for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

?Micro-Pro / Smart-Sense? Micronized Copper Quaternary MCQ
Minimum 0.60 pcf MCQ for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

?Micro-Pro / Life-Wood? Micronized Copper (tebuconazole) Azole MCA
Minimum 0.23 pcf MCA for Structural / Building Pole / Foundation Use

Ordinary lumber yard poles might not have enough chemicals.
Those poles might only be approved by the manufacturers for decks or fence posts, not for permanent structural building foundations.

VADAVE · Jun 27, 2016

Based on what you have said you dig along side the poles enough to know just the poles are in the ground. So here's my suggestion: 1) you have to support the roof structure while you fixing the poles. Set a temporary pole close on some kind of pad and even lift the roof a little.
2) Cut and dig out the rotten wood and dig the hole at least 3 feet but get below the frost line and under the pole. Square up the bottom and pour a pad maybe foot and half by 6 inches
3) Buy a one foot cardboard cylinder, they are available at any decent building supply, set it on the pad and backfill around it tight then pour it full of concrete, probably a couple of 60 lb. bags.
4) After it set up attach the pole to it.

Stops the rot and if I remember right the water table in Holland isn't very deep.
If you get the bottom of the pole out of the ground the building will last better.

gmccool · Jun 27, 2016

You have the right idea but dig beside the existing poles & set a new post beside it. Then get some long bolts or ready rod & bolt them together. You said several of the original post are rotted off. Do every post in the building now because if you wait until later you will have the shed full & they will not be out in the open & if some rotted off it won't be long before the remaining ones rot off.

old · Jun 27, 2016

Been dealing with something like that since the Dec. flood tried to wash away my horse barn. I had a number of poles that where either broken off or rotted away so once I got them back where they should have been, flood pushed them out of place. Any way what I did was dug holes about 3 foot deep next the where the old pole hole was and then set in a 4X4 that was about 6 foot long and set it in the hole filled it with dirt and nailed the 2 together with pole barn spikes

Janicholson · Jun 27, 2016

I second this approach. Putting a galvanized steel pier to post anchor on the post and pouring the concrete up to and around it will anchor the post automatically. Jim

Eric in IL · Jun 27, 2016

This may or may not be of interest to you.
Perma column

Geo-TH,In · Jun 27, 2016

Old, when I had my pole barn built, build inspector required I put my 4x6 posts 4 ft below grade. Inspector had to see my holes were deep enough before contractor could continue work. He also need to see plans and told contractor to increase the size of header and put one on each side of post. Then after all the work was done, he had to do a final inspection. I know how some people don't like getting permits and following what an inspector wants, but I glad to live where I have to have a permit. Makes sure things are done properly. Same with electrical work, plumbing and safety codes. geo

old · Jun 27, 2016

In this area 18 inches is just fine for water pipe etc. Ya no codes in this area but even where there are codes 24 inch is as deep as code makes you go here in Missouri

Geo-TH,In · Jun 27, 2016

Old, footers on a house are 24 inches below grade. I'm guessing the 4 ft requirement for posts has something to do with wind shear, not frost. geo.

old · Jun 27, 2016

Well like with many things the people who make up many of the codes do not have a clue what how or why they just do so like many laws that are made up many people making the laws do not have a clue as to the way things really work.

Jim in TX · Jun 27, 2016

Second the Perma Column solution. You do not have to buy the bracket and concrete post assembly (heavy, a fortune to ship). The bracket is available separately and you can make a mold to cast the post onsite OR cut off the existing posts, install the bracket, add a round cardboard form fill with concrete. If you brace the roof you can cut the post, use a small excavator to pull the old post, dig the hole, fill around new post or round form. No BS hand digging.

Plus the finished job will look like a pro job instead of midnight engineering.

Bagged concrete is available as "Dot 3" it is high strength quick set for the molded posts and is used by your local hwy dept for overnight road repair. Some brackets use Simpson Strong Tie fasteners to increase the loading capacity of the wood to concrete joint in the bracket.

Simpson has brackets also. They will require a round tube form and use of the same fasteners. Download a copy of the Simpson catalog/application guide.

No interest in Perma Column or Simpson. I had planned to build a wood frame shop using the Perma Column brackets and casting the posts onsite. Decided that it was just a easy to rent an excavator cut 12" X 2 ft trench fill with concrete and stab the brackets in. Cheaper too! Don't know cost of Dot 3, but I'd venture anything the govt buys will be Cadillac price.

Jim

Geo-TH,In · Jun 27, 2016

Old, I look at it the opposite, I'm glad we have building codes, stupid or not.

Area planning has put a stop to many old practices like someone putting a trailer in their back yard, running sewer pipe to the river and calling is a septic.

They also put a stop to building in a flood plane. Those who get flooded out, can't rebuild there. Those with flood insurance, the government buys them out so on one can make the same mistake again. geo

Pete in Holland MI · Jun 27, 2016

So......question:

Do the poles gain strength for the rest of the building (side-to-side racking) being stuck deeply in the ground, or does the building itself create that resistance to racking? Wondering if the joint between the the new pole/foundation needs long attachment along the joint (say....6' 2x6's & lots of screws sandwiching the joint), or if they just "sit" on a concrete foundation (with proper attachments), be OK ?

Just want to make the correct transition between the old posts, and the new parts.

Thanx !

Pete

old · Jun 27, 2016

Oh so say where I live you might cal a flood plain but in all the years I have lived here which as of next month will be 36 years the house I had and the house I have now NEVER have had water in either one. In all these years I have only had 3 times that the floods where so bad that it even damaged much of any thing. 1986 in Oct and people called that the 100 year flood then in July of 2015 and Dec of 2015. Both the ones in 2015 the old timers as in people who are a lot older then either of us said they have never heard of such a flood and that goes by even what they learned form there parents. Ya some laws are needs like the septic thing which by the way there are still a lot of houses on the Lake of the Ozarks that have there septic field line going out to there sea walls and sticking right into the lake. They can not do that any more but the older houses grand fathered into that so they get the keep it the way it is.
But then there are cases like with a creek I have that causes the problem once in a while that DNR makes it illegal to remove gravel with out a permit but the guy who enforces that does not have a clue as to what happens if the gravel is not removed.

old · Jun 27, 2016

First thing I would do is make sure what if any codes have to be met. On the horse barn I fixed the old broken off pole had to be jacked up so as to go back the what it was back when I built it years ago and I places the new splice so as to make it so things would push in such way as to make it hold better if and when the same problem that broke them off happens again

RedGreenGuy · Jun 27, 2016

Had 24 x 24 out building with that problem. dug down 4' next to pole and installed new railroad ties. tied together with threaded rod.

MarkB_MI · Jun 27, 2016

I would have to think long and hard about salvaging a building in such a condition. So they apparently used old telephone poles rather than properly treated new posts. What other corners were cut, given that the builder skimped on the single most important component? I'd carefully evaluate the building as a whole before deciding whether to save it, dismantle/salvage it, or demolish it. Are you looking for a permanent fix, or just to extend the life for a few more years?

504 · Jun 27, 2016

I helped an old timer repair a barn that had hogs run in it for years and just worn out the posts. He nailed a 2X4 block on the old post and jacked it up with a farm jack,cut the old post with a chain saw, dug a new hole beside the old one and then drilled and bolted the two post together. That barn is as straight as the day it was built, and the repair was done in 1973.

caterpillar guy · Jun 28, 2016

As for the comment about power line or telephone poles being sloppy or shoddy. We have some of those pole barns with a good 35 to 50 years on the old poles. The plates were bolted to the poles with 5/8 bolts through elm,oak,ash 2x12's for plates and the trusses set on them.
As for the store bought buildings I doubt they are built as good as the ones we built for ourselves. I have seen the cheesy ones over to my brothers places with the poles rotted and settling with those store bought poles as package deals.
I would just bolt another pole to the old one at whatever length you choose. with it dug down about 4 ft for frost.

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