One year ago I knew virtually nothing about cows but I thought the best way to learn is to own a couple and in the future breed them on a small scale. So I bought an orphan 4 week old angus/charolais female calf from a local rancher and a week later I bought another two day old female orphan hereford/charolais from the local auction barn and bottle fed them both. They are now a year old and appear fat and healthy. Over that period the rancher has continued to advise me as to their care, including my questions about breeding them in the future. A few days ago I learned that the one I bought from the rancher was in fact a twin and that the other twin was a bull. This of course means a 90%+ chance my heifer is sterile (freemartin). Is there any possibility that the rancher and his partner, who have bred and sold thousands of cows for well over 60 years, could not have known that a heifer whose twin is a bull has a high chance of being sterile? In other words, was I duped? I plan to have both tested by a vet this week, but should he also bring his tattoo kit and tattoo the letter S on my forehead for "sucker"? If one or both are sterile, what do I do with them? It'd be morally wrong to sell them at the auction barn without disclosing that so are they worth anything? Thanks
- Thread starter Rance
- Start date
Moonlite37
Well-known Member
He surely knew, but the question how did the neighbor know? I would visit with the rancher/
Not really. They probably were of the opinion you wanted to raise a couple of beef calves to eat/ and or sell, and gave you a couple of animals for just that. Now, if you told them you were starting a breeding herd, it might be a different story. But, for just a couple of calves to raise, they're as good as anything.
Determined
Well-known Member
Did you mention you wee looking for breeding stock when you purchased them?
Unless they were something special and advertised as such then all they were selling you were a couple of calves to raise for beef.
Fill your freezer and eat well.
Unless something is being marketed as breeding stock or replacement heifers nobody is pulling a fast one or lying to you.
Unless they were something special and advertised as such then all they were selling you were a couple of calves to raise for beef.
Fill your freezer and eat well.
Unless something is being marketed as breeding stock or replacement heifers nobody is pulling a fast one or lying to you.
brutus49DC
Member
There's nothing wrong with selling them as feeders. Someone will finish them out. Or you can feed them out and sell them as fats. Even if they will breed hand raised heifers are often a pita as brood cows.
Orphans are sold at almost give away rates. And did you tell them that you wanted breeders? or just cheap.. Cause you got the cheapest of the cheap when you buy orphans... Most of which are runts anyway.
Your trying to build a skyscraper out of scrap and then complaining about the quality of the scrap.
Your trying to build a skyscraper out of scrap and then complaining about the quality of the scrap.
brutus49DC
Member
Orphan calves bring good money around here at calving time. Someone is always looking for a calve to put on a cow that lost her calf.
I came pretty darned close to making a 4H or FFA member real happy with one a few weeks ago. Danged first calf heifer walked away from one. She met her match with me though. I put her in a pen in the barn with it and bottle fed it to keep it alive. When they still didn't pair up,I put her in the chute a few times and got it going on her. I hope they're paired up OK now,because I just turned them back out on pasture this afternoon. I need that pen to sort some fats in the morning,but if she runs off on it,they're going right back in there.
The seller was fully aware that I had no experience with cows, that I intended to breed her, and that I was relying on his expertise. I paid him $500. As for the calf bought at auction ($400) I agree--caveat emptor--and I do not know yet that she is freemartin. She could be fine.
Pair-a-dice farm
Well-known Member
The rancher should have known the chances you take with a twin heifer with a bull sibling. However you say that you later found out about the heifer being a twin but you don't say where that information came from. Did it come from the rancher? If it didn't I wouldn't put much into that information. Most older ranchers that I know are more honest than just about any other group. Like others have said, I don't like bottle calves for breeding stock but that is just my opinion. I also will not keep a twin even if it's twin heifers, I don't like twins.
Personally if you want to have a couple of breeding heifers, I would sell what you have and buy a couple of young bred cows or pairs. The calves you have will make some delicious steaks for someone.
Personally if you want to have a couple of breeding heifers, I would sell what you have and buy a couple of young bred cows or pairs. The calves you have will make some delicious steaks for someone.
john in la
Well-known Member
A rancher sold you a calf fully aware that you wanted to breed it.
This same rancher helped you with advise on raising this calf.
Now someone told you the calf is a freemartin.
So who is this someone.
Just does not make sense that the rancher told you this a year after the fact.
We know it was not your vet because you said you will have him check them later this week.
This same rancher helped you with advise on raising this calf.
Now someone told you the calf is a freemartin.
So who is this someone.
Just does not make sense that the rancher told you this a year after the fact.
We know it was not your vet because you said you will have him check them later this week.
It was his wife who unwittingly told me my heifer calf was the twin of a bull calf. She is the keeper of the calf record book but I do not believe she is aware that this twinning causes freemartinism. I also verified this with the owner of the bull twin who knew there was a heifer twin but wasn't sure who bought it.
dcarp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Schulenburg Texas
Feed those 2 out and enjoy the home raised steaks. As stated, most bottle fed calves are runts. Chalk this off as experience. Find another rancher who will sell you 2 bred heifers, verified by your vet, that will calve at 24 months of age. Getting into the cattle business at this time is another good way to lose money and enjoy the experience.
redforlife
Well-known Member
I usually don't calve out heifers at 24 months. I usually give them an extra 3 months or so, and calve em about 27 months. I just have way less problems that way. If you not really sure what you got, then just put a bull with them when you want to breed them. If they breed they breed, and if they don't, just go ahead and feed em out to butcher. You can have a vet preg check them about 3 or 4 months after the bull exposer date. Then you will know if they are breed or not and what to do with them. But you are correct. Male and female twines are likely to be steril. How do you know the one from the auction was a twin?? Twins are usually un common. That don't happen very often. Maybe one out of 100 or 200.
screwloose
Member
I have no idea what the prices are for calves these days. I would have to say you got ripped off in the price department also. $75 to $150 tops is what I would pay for a 2 or 4 day old calf.
notjustair
Well-known Member
I give him the benefit of the doubt but I don't know him. I assume folks like me are honest. I have a freemartin as we speak. She will go to the sale just like other heifers I am not keeping. I don't hold it against anyone or feel bad if I buy a bunch of heifers and one doesn't settle. I give her a spring chance and then a fall chance. Then she heads back to the sale. I've done the same with gilts that I intend to breed. Sometimes they are like people - they just aren't able and there's nothing you can do.
Now, your situation. I know when things get busy for me I forget which sow or cow had what. I can't tell you how often I have to consult my cattle and pig books to know something I should remember. That's why I write it all down. I don't think it was some secret or the wife wouldn't have let it out and the guy wouldn't have fessed up. I don't sell much off the farm (usually feeder pigs) but when I do I double check to make sure they are getting my best. I can't look something in the eye and put the screws to them. I'd like to think this guy is the same and just doesn't usually have to consider a relationship with the animal/owner he meets. If he did I think he might keep better tabs. I see him as someone who must breed and sell but not have any registered stock.
Now, your situation. I know when things get busy for me I forget which sow or cow had what. I can't tell you how often I have to consult my cattle and pig books to know something I should remember. That's why I write it all down. I don't think it was some secret or the wife wouldn't have let it out and the guy wouldn't have fessed up. I don't sell much off the farm (usually feeder pigs) but when I do I double check to make sure they are getting my best. I can't look something in the eye and put the screws to them. I'd like to think this guy is the same and just doesn't usually have to consider a relationship with the animal/owner he meets. If he did I think he might keep better tabs. I see him as someone who must breed and sell but not have any registered stock.
notjustair- Maybe I mis-understtod what you posted. I think you posted that you would send a known Freemartin to auction without labeling her as Freemartin? So, other buyers looking to purchase heifers for breeding purposes are just stuck with her because she won't take. Is this what you were trying to imply???
Around here breeding heifers bring more money than feeders.
Thanks
Around here breeding heifers bring more money than feeders.
Thanks
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
Most of the old rancher types around here have never opened a book about cattle and while they have tremendous experience based knowledge (and lots of knowledge that is not in books), they are not up on genetics and what happens in this special case or that special case.
The good thing about raising cattle is that they taste good and least you won't starve.
At the stage you're at consider any negative financial status as part of the tuition to "cattle school". Think of all the poor souls who shell out out tens of thousands of dollars and four years only to end up with a piece of paper and a shortcut to the unemployment line. You, on the other hand, are growing good protein!
Also you have plenty of company. An old guy in this area who has a good sized operation and many decade of experience and book learning just lost his shorts on a group of feeders.
Farming is like that sometimes!
As for breeding animals, I would not even shop at an auction. I would only buy from a rancher where I could see the rest of the family and how they were raised.
The good thing about raising cattle is that they taste good and least you won't starve.
At the stage you're at consider any negative financial status as part of the tuition to "cattle school". Think of all the poor souls who shell out out tens of thousands of dollars and four years only to end up with a piece of paper and a shortcut to the unemployment line. You, on the other hand, are growing good protein!
Also you have plenty of company. An old guy in this area who has a good sized operation and many decade of experience and book learning just lost his shorts on a group of feeders.
Farming is like that sometimes!
As for breeding animals, I would not even shop at an auction. I would only buy from a rancher where I could see the rest of the family and how they were raised.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
Right.
He bought the first one from the rancher and the second one at an auction. Both were heifers.
He bought the first one from the rancher and the second one at an auction. Both were heifers.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
Right, he was not aware of the twin situation when he bought the first one.
I threw in the auction part for general advice, my 2 bits worth.
I've only been messing with cows for a decade or so and I remember what it was like to be brand new to them and trying to find a footing.
In this area people take problem cows to the auction to get rid of them: fence jumpers, failed to breed, failed to mother, sterile, bad posture, poor fleshing, one leg shorter than the others, two heads and no tail, etc.
At my level of experience I can not sit at an auction ring and eyeball an animal quickly enough to make a decision before they've sold it and moved to the next one. A beginner has a high probability of disaster in this scenario IMO. However, buying a bottle calf was kind of a wash on risk because they're so young. The worst thing in that case is if it dies and that didn't happen.
Frankly, I wouldn't buy bottle calves either. I'm just not set up for it and it's just not for me. Used to the dairies would give them away, then they were $50 bucks and then a couple years ago people were paying $300 bucks for them. I don't know where they're at now.
Buying directly from a rancher was the right thing to do, it's just than a fairly rare twins situation has happened.
I threw in the auction part for general advice, my 2 bits worth.
I've only been messing with cows for a decade or so and I remember what it was like to be brand new to them and trying to find a footing.
In this area people take problem cows to the auction to get rid of them: fence jumpers, failed to breed, failed to mother, sterile, bad posture, poor fleshing, one leg shorter than the others, two heads and no tail, etc.
At my level of experience I can not sit at an auction ring and eyeball an animal quickly enough to make a decision before they've sold it and moved to the next one. A beginner has a high probability of disaster in this scenario IMO. However, buying a bottle calf was kind of a wash on risk because they're so young. The worst thing in that case is if it dies and that didn't happen.
Frankly, I wouldn't buy bottle calves either. I'm just not set up for it and it's just not for me. Used to the dairies would give them away, then they were $50 bucks and then a couple years ago people were paying $300 bucks for them. I don't know where they're at now.
Buying directly from a rancher was the right thing to do, it's just than a fairly rare twins situation has happened.
CenTex Farmall- "Right, he was not aware of the twin situation when he bought the first one."
Blah, Blah...nonsense.
"Buying directly from a rancher was the right thing to do, it's just than a fairly rare twins situation has happened. " I see your point but, it looks like this 'Rancher' seems like someone you may want to avoid...
Blah, Blah...nonsense.
"Buying directly from a rancher was the right thing to do, it's just than a fairly rare twins situation has happened. " I see your point but, it looks like this 'Rancher' seems like someone you may want to avoid...
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
By "not aware" I was referring to the OP.
There are some out there who would be, well, less than up front with everything to a new guy. We can't know on the forum if this rancher was unfamiliar with freemartin twins or saw an opportunity to unload problem animal and concealed information.
I agree with you though; in either case I would "shop" somewhere else next time.
At least he has two live and healthy animals at this point and hopefully the one will test good.
There are some out there who would be, well, less than up front with everything to a new guy. We can't know on the forum if this rancher was unfamiliar with freemartin twins or saw an opportunity to unload problem animal and concealed information.
I agree with you though; in either case I would "shop" somewhere else next time.
At least he has two live and healthy animals at this point and hopefully the one will test good.
Pair-a-dice farm
Well-known Member
I think you are making too much out of notjustair's post. Most cattlemen that I know sell calves by the trailer load that usually go to a feedlot. Sometimes someone will by them for replacements but the seller has no control who buys them at the auction. I also put my freemartins in with the others and sell as a group.
I believe that there are more sets of twins born than most know. Unless you live with the cow at calving you can't know. Many times the cow will leave one of the twins and it will die. How many of the survivors are freemartins and no one knows. Last year I had 4 sets of twins, that I know of, out of a 70 cow herd.
Not knowing this particular rancher it's impossible to know his intentions when he sold this heifer. I haven't read anything that makes me believe he had any malicious intent.
notjustair
Well-known Member
No, she'll go as a kill cow. I always tell the auction owner what I'm bringing. Someone buys them as a feeder.
An auction is a gamble. Like someone (maybe you) said, that's where the fence jumpers go. I won't go to the auction for a cow, but I will buy groups of heifers when I know where they came from. Still, some never settle. That's how nature is. It's hard for someone not in the farming circle to be "let in" and get to learn the process. Just from knowing the process - if it comes through the ring alone and it's not a bull don't bid.
An auction is a gamble. Like someone (maybe you) said, that's where the fence jumpers go. I won't go to the auction for a cow, but I will buy groups of heifers when I know where they came from. Still, some never settle. That's how nature is. It's hard for someone not in the farming circle to be "let in" and get to learn the process. Just from knowing the process - if it comes through the ring alone and it's not a bull don't bid.
I have seen a cattle buy sitting in the arena, and telling someone..."that one is a freemartin". Maybe he was right? Certainly did not bid on her. I understand that by a certain growth stage, a veternarian can insert a short straw into the nnalert to check if she is breedable. He hits a "wall" since the repro organs are not fully developed.
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