Here are the examples on liability: You cut hay and the customer comes and picks it up??? Or you have a pick your own fruit deal. Some one is removing items from your property like scrap metal, tearing down old building for lumber. My personal favorite is some one buys fire wood and saws it up or loads it on site. I know some farm insurance will cover some of it *to a degree* Also the third party thing land owner hires you to do hay and you have customer come to get it. I can see quite a bit of liability in all the above, some people seem to be concerned, some could care less!! Saw one situation where guy wanted building gone, Bubba and Chucky wanted it for lumber but landowner hires ABC construction due to insurance. Wondering what your take is and what your seeing in your area??? Thanks for the replies.
- Thread starter JOCCO
- Start date
We have too many lawyers, so liability should be a genuine concern for all property owners. Don't dismiss anything as unlikely, just think what could possibly go wrong.
For example, we sometimes have things that we could sell - but that entails a contingent liability because you didn't tell the buyer this-n-that. So instead we drop it off at Good Will or the Salvation Army without giving our name and that ends the liability for us. Sometimes it is just better to give things away rather than sell them.
For example, we sometimes have things that we could sell - but that entails a contingent liability because you didn't tell the buyer this-n-that. So instead we drop it off at Good Will or the Salvation Army without giving our name and that ends the liability for us. Sometimes it is just better to give things away rather than sell them.
Dick here are two for you, not really liability just a pain. Near buy small city, these drop off recycle places. (you donate your unwanted garments etc.) they sell them. People just leave a bag after hours at the door right???? Yes a bag full of old paint, batteries tires and chemicals that would be a pain (or costly) to dispose of!!! Another popular trick was to rent a self storage unit (for cash or under a false name) #2 see above listed items and add a few more!!!
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
Two ways to look at it. Buy as much insurance and you can afford, to cover you for your full net worth.
The other way, is minimal insurance, and a lawyer will not think it is worth his time to sue you, as you dont have much insurance to get.
I go with the first method. If you have a net worth of a million dollars, buy a million dollars worth.
Anybody that sets foot on your farm is a potential lawsuit.
I wish there was an open season on shooting lawyers.
Gene
The other way, is minimal insurance, and a lawyer will not think it is worth his time to sue you, as you dont have much insurance to get.
I go with the first method. If you have a net worth of a million dollars, buy a million dollars worth.
Anybody that sets foot on your farm is a potential lawsuit.
I wish there was an open season on shooting lawyers.
Gene
Our town has a hazardous material drop off place just 3 miles from our house. I save anything that I deem hazardous and take it to them when my box is full. They are always glad to see me, as they know I bring them the things that we are supposed to bring to them. I don't know how they open all those small batteries and extract the hazardous material, but I guess they are trained how to do that. I get rid of any of those small flat batteries so a little kid can't get one and swallow it and damage their little body. Now there would be a case of liability if it happened in your home!
I am a firm believer in minimal insurance---larger amounts are just an invitation for a lawsuit---I have both been sued numerous times and have sued a couple of times and the first think lawyers look for is how how much insurance
and then proceed on the basis of negotiating a settlement without the bother of going to trial
and then proceed on the basis of negotiating a settlement without the bother of going to trial
I bought my retirement home in Fl in 1991 and the home owners was 75 a year. The next year it was twice as much 150 So I said just cancel it. The insurance man said I can't do that. I said you want to run the risk so I will run the risk. Today in 2016 just the land is worth more than I paid for the land house and every thing, So I say I beat them. I don't have much love for insurance company's. Now most of the people on my street see what I did and they also have canceled. I checked last year and my insurance would be 1100 dollars a year.
showcrop
Well-known Member
I used to have a dump truck. Two times I was hired to haul a few loads to the huge regional landfill. Each time I was there I heard drivers ask the compactor operator over the CB where to dump the barrels of really bad hazardous waste that they had on their truck. The operator always tells them, right over there with everything else. Those hazmat collectors aren't doing anything special with your trash, just taking your tax dollars.
farmerwithmutt
Well-known Member
2 more what if the Amish and they don't believe in insurance so if there doing work for you and get hurt possible that hospital would hold you responsible and ask you to pay?
Also and I'm not sure how this works but you post a no trespass sign somebody trips and gets hurt they sue you because you had a sign up warning of a known danger and it's your fault because you didn't fix the danger
Also and I'm not sure how this works but you post a no trespass sign somebody trips and gets hurt they sue you because you had a sign up warning of a known danger and it's your fault because you didn't fix the danger
No trespass laws vary by state, in some cases it protects the land owner. It is used like in a case of a delapated building. Some states have a recreation no liability law, like bird hunting or snowmobiling. No idea on the Amish one, guess they would not work if insurance was required on a job.
farmerwithmutt
Well-known Member
With the Amish they will do roofing remodel and other jobs. They usually under bid other contractors that have to have insurance or follow Osha rules along with not having to worry about age. It isn't to uncommon that one gets hauled in my thought is if they get hurt and don't pay then would the hospital go after you the same could be said for other contractors that you would hire
Ted in NE-OH
Well-known Member
The Amish take care of their own and have benefit sales.
Ted in NE-OH
Well-known Member
It is good to minimize your risks, but don't go too far overboard that you run scared all the time. That is what you buy insurance for.
Andy Martin
Well-known Member
People that are too worried about liability should not own real estate. The only safe way is to rent.
In most states you can be held liable is someone picking up hay, fire wood or picking berries gets injured on your property. Now some fat old guy loading firewood has a heart attack he'd have a hard time suing. Let him get a splinter? He may, depending on your state laws be able at least to hit your insurance up for a doctors visit. In MN they had some different laws regarding hunting. In an effort to get land owners to let others hunt for free the passed a law stating that a person, hunting on someone else's land with permission for free is barred from suing if they get injured while hunting. If you rent out hunting right they can sue you. So to answer your question you really need to get on your state's web site and look this stuff up.
Rick
There is something called a "hold harmless agreement". You could draw up your own or ask a lawyer to do it for you. You should consider these for persons who routinely visit your operation and are exposed to possible injury. For example: hunting is considered an "at risk endeavor" and a hold harmless would be a good idea to have for anybody who hunts your property sign before letting them hunt. Another irksome thing is that large corporate farms have the advantage that their liability is limited to their corporate assets, while the small family farmer who isn't incorporated has ALL his assets at risk if something goes wrong. Sell some one bad produce and they come down sick with something or worse dies and EVERY thing you own house, barn, equipment, etc. is in play. I asked an ag teacher once about why I shouldn't incorporate and he just shrugged and said why would you want to pay twice as much taxes? I'm not sure if he was right, but I think something should be done about this. JD
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
So, are you just trying to stir things up? Or is this a real question?
Either way, I would vote for returning to COMMON SENSE disposition of injury claims. Seems like today, the one with the deepest pockets gets the bill for everything. That is not right, but it happens anyways.
Either way, I would vote for returning to COMMON SENSE disposition of injury claims. Seems like today, the one with the deepest pockets gets the bill for everything. That is not right, but it happens anyways.
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
A hold harmless agreement is basically just a bluff. It might keep a few people from suing you. But, just remember, you can not escape Negligence. You can have them sign a truck load of Hold harmless agreements, but if they think, or try to say you are negligent, and maybe you really were, then you are on the hook. Nothing negates negligence.
Gene
Not even then, you still have the liability for your personal actions and the premises you occupy. Your landlords insurance won't respond if someone trips over your rug and hurts themselves.
I can see, although I don't agree, that for your property you can not insure it and take the risk, but to be without liability insurance is just plain irresponsible. Suppose you are the one hurt or your property damaged by some uninsured fool and have tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars in loss and your only recourse it to sue him/her and hope their assets are enough to cover you losses, after legal fees and if you can get a lawyer to take your case. Would not be fun, would it? So why would you be like that and risk everything you have and impoverish someone else because you are a fool?
jim buford
Member
If you hire someone to cut a tree down on your property and they get hurt your insurance company will have two basic things to decide: did your actions or inactions contribute to their injury and secondly were they your employees or were they independent contractors. If your employees your duty to them is greater than if they were third party independent contractors.
jim buford
Member
Signs put up at auction barns that say " we are not responsible for accidents" means very little for if the owner of the barn creates a
condition or fails to repair a condition that injures someone he is responsible regardless of his signs intent.
A few years ago after the oil rig explosion in the Gulf there was a clamor for the oil company to accept liability. People don't realize
there might have been a 1000 different suppliers of parts in that rig and the oil company has a hold harmless and indemnity agreement with
each of them stating if there is a judgment against us and it found it was your part that failed and caused the explosion then you will
indemnify us for all costs. This is product liability and is the only way any company of any size can afford to operate.
condition or fails to repair a condition that injures someone he is responsible regardless of his signs intent.
A few years ago after the oil rig explosion in the Gulf there was a clamor for the oil company to accept liability. People don't realize
there might have been a 1000 different suppliers of parts in that rig and the oil company has a hold harmless and indemnity agreement with
each of them stating if there is a judgment against us and it found it was your part that failed and caused the explosion then you will
indemnify us for all costs. This is product liability and is the only way any company of any size can afford to operate.
jim buford
Member
Actually a corporate rate might be less than the individual rate and besides the insurance premium is a tax deductible item. Any endeavor
can be insured and if not through the standard property and casualty company then through risk companies like Lloyds of London.
can be insured and if not through the standard property and casualty company then through risk companies like Lloyds of London.
jim buford
Member
One can be liable even if renting for he can still create unsafe conditions that cause someone to be injured. And some policies have a
clause stating the owner is not liable or at least the insurance company will not pay for damages if the property in question is under the
care, custody and control of another.
clause stating the owner is not liable or at least the insurance company will not pay for damages if the property in question is under the
care, custody and control of another.
jim buford
Member
A lot of the Amish and Mennonite groups while they don't purchase insurance from a third party carrier still pool their money and are "self insured." One thing we have to remember is that anyone can sue for anything but if a frivolous suit the judge may through it out in a summary judgment. Some states have contributory negligence statutes which mean any negligence on the injured party negates his ability to collect. While in other states they have comparative negligence statutes which means you have to be less than 50% at fault to collect anything. There are derivatives of both depending on the state.
jim buford
Member
A typical hospital would get the patient to execute an assignment form which means if the injured party collects from a 3rd party then the hospital has dibs on that money. They are not stupid and will enforce their claim.
jim buford
Member
I tend to agree but remember the lawyers act somewhat as a buffer between two parties and if they did not exist the government would take
over adjudication and we can all envision what that would look like.
over adjudication and we can all envision what that would look like.
Wow, a lot of folks on here have a pretty low opinion of Hold Harmless agreements. I have no knowledge of any that have been vacated or for that matter upheld, but I do see them upheld all the time in business contracts (indemnity clauses). So my take away is might as well have one, it might not help you but it sure can't hurt you either. As to insurance deductibles, I asked my accountant and she said (with out checking for sure) that they were not deductible for home owners (small farmers) but were for just about any businesses. Seems like another double standard to me. The last time I looked into a Country Estate Plan it was nearly 3,000$. So now I'm thinking Dog Heaven Farm LLc. or Dog Heaven Farm Inc. has a nice ring to it. If I could just remember where I saw that advertisement for 350$ to incorporate my farm. I will say however, this is an important topic and I hope the discourse continues. JD
jim buford
Member
But the lawyer never has to stop with what insurance you have. If the claim is large enough and serious enough he can go after your personal assets as well. So mimimum limits will work fine on smaller claims but on the big ones may be an invitation to disaster.
This subject has always concerned me. We have tons of people out on our small farm (photographers etc.), have regular farm insurance covering stuff, like cows getting out, people picking up equipment etc. but when my wife started doing weddings at our place we had to get more, cost us $260 per year for "events".
Now, if we were to allow alcohol on our property it is a different story, 95% of companies would not even write a policy. We still haven't figured that one out yet as most anyone who has a wedding wants/needs alcohol.
Seems like most people just roll without it and don't worry and never have a problem? Our insurance agent said you need to have enough coverage to where it becomes more attractive to deal with the insurance than to sue you for your personal property. There are lots of things on a farm that could hurt you if you are jacking around acting like an idiot, but there are tons of people doing hayrides, pumpkin patches, and general farm tourism stuff that never lose sleep over it?
Now, if we were to allow alcohol on our property it is a different story, 95% of companies would not even write a policy. We still haven't figured that one out yet as most anyone who has a wedding wants/needs alcohol.
Seems like most people just roll without it and don't worry and never have a problem? Our insurance agent said you need to have enough coverage to where it becomes more attractive to deal with the insurance than to sue you for your personal property. There are lots of things on a farm that could hurt you if you are jacking around acting like an idiot, but there are tons of people doing hayrides, pumpkin patches, and general farm tourism stuff that never lose sleep over it?
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