On news why carrier is moving.

Parts taken form article.

Jones says Carrier is moving to Mexico because that's where their competitors and suppliers are. Unlike Indiana, where workers average $20 an hour, Carrier can pay workers in Mexico $3 an hour - or $6 with benefits.

Meantime, if Carrier moves forward with its plans to move 2,100 jobs to Mexico - 1,400 of those currently based in Indianapolis - it may have to pay million of dollars on its way out of the country. City and state leaders are reviewing grants and tax breaks previously given to the company to keep it here.

Do you think Carrier wil pay property taxes, social security taxes, unemployment taxes, health insurance in mexico?
news link.

wake up America just don't buy their sh!t buy another brand .

Hard to do since more and more are leaving.

Don't know about Carrier, but you might want to check out if they make things for other brands. When my Bryant furnace was recalled for a faulty heat exchanger, the resulting class action lawsuit revealed that the heat exchanger for the Brant and several other major brands were made by the same manufacturer. Wouldn't be too suppressed if Carrier made whole units for other brands.

Carrier owns Bryant.

Much of Carrier's commercial equipment has been manufactured in Mexico for years.

For the city or state to do anything at all will require a contract that basically states something along the lines of "we will give tax breaks and or grants providing that Carrier remains X amount of time". That's because no company is going to sign away their right to move for eternity. Of course there will be escape clauses in there for both sides. Most of them that I've heard of are good for about 5 years. If Carrier has stayed long enough there is nothing the state or city can do. Basically claiming to be reviewing the matter is the way politicians keep the masses happy. A year from now when they come out and say "sorry folks, nothing we can do" the voters will be appeased because they think the politicians at least tried when all they did was spend tax payer money to a lawyer to review the contract that they already knew was expired.

I'm not defending Carrier's move. But if the other companies have already done that then they have little choice in the matter. They have to move to compete. The other option would be for the workers to accept much lower wages. Now you and I know the workers are not going to do that. With no OSHA or EPA regs plus lower taxes and add in the savings in pay and bennies. The last option is for them to go broke and everyone is out of a job anyway.

Rick

Exactly, and in the last few years the foreign products are as good or better than made in the USA. It has become so expensive to do business in the US that companies have had to cut back. Since they can't cut wages or government regulations they cut quality.

Just went political-vote for nnalert.

Good chance you will make this post go POOF, Smart move.

(quoted from post at 16:11:53 02/16/16) wake up America just don't buy their sh!t buy another brand .

Click to expand...

Wake up dblair! Everybody has been buying other brands. Samsung, LG, Sony Hitachi. How long could they keep the doors open if they keep paying the labor costs and sold at a low enough cost to be able to compete? Or how long do they keep the doors open if they sell at a price that covers their costs
and nobody buys? Either way when the doors close EVERYONE loses their job. How about you tell them which to do.

oldtanker-"The other option would be for the workers to accept much lower wages."

That brings up a really good question...Do you think that workers in the U.S.A. should just
adjust to lower pay that is equal to what is paid to workers in Mexico, China, Bangladesh, etc.?

Otherwise, there will not be too many jobs left in the US.

Doesn't matter what excuse they give you can bet the board of directors are ready to take a windfall and retire in style. They may think they will do fine with $6 an hour workers but what is the small army they are going to have to hire to protect them going to cost?

Pete, he talks a good line but there isn't anything he can do to stop that legally.

Greg, certainly not. But if the company can't cut cost enough to compete in the market place then they are forced to close their doors. I just mentioned that as an option.

Someone mentioned cutting the pay for the board. You could do that and with the cost of labor they still wouldn't be able to compete. Now who do you want tossing a football for your favorite pro team? That multi million a year quarterback or just some guy making way less money? Same thing holds true with COE's and board members. You want someone running a company that you have invested in that isn't very good at what they are doing? Or do you want the best so you actually get a return on your investment?

Look at it this way. If Carrier's CEO is making 10 million a year and they get him to work for free applying that savings toward reducing the cost of their products. And to keep it simple lets say they sell 100K items a year. They can reduce the price of each unit 100 bucks. Now lets say the average worker is making 20 an hour. That works out to 58 million or so a year in wages plus unemployment insurance and bennies. Each item sold would cost about 290 dollar less. Cut it by 75% and that become 435 per item. That's huge. And 99 out of 100 people are going to buy from a different company that has already moved offshore if there is that much difference in price and Carrier would still go broke having a free CEO. Don't listen to what the politicians are saying. They just want your vote. They know what the bottom line is. And without massive tariffs on ANY imported goods nothing is going to change. And a massive increase like that would really crash the economy with the massive inflation it would create.

Rick

Tariffs not the way to go. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930, anybody?

Economists still agree that Smoot-Hawley and the ensuing tariff wars were highly counterproductive and contributed to the depth and length of the global Depression."The Smoot-Hawley Tariff was one of the causes of The Great Depression as foreign trade with Europe as well as China, which the United States had just recently set up an "Open-Door Policy" with, was vital to the economy.

Our economy is shaky enough with a certain party in the WH, new tariffs and the retaliation it would bring would take us over the cliff. The only answer is to make us more competitive in the industries where a higher wage can be paid for skilled workers.

(quoted from post at 00:11:53 02/17/16) wake up America just don't buy their sh!t buy another brand .

Click to expand...

My brother who had an HVAC business in Florida for many years stopped using Carrier, he swore by Trane.

I think we are seeing the end of the middle class in the US. All the good paying factory jobs are leaving. I really don't see how the factories have a choice either, move or go out of business. Just look at how cheap imported window air conditioners and dehumidifiers are. Who knows, factories moving may also end pension obligations for the retirees or those who are about to retire.

I don't have any answers, but it sad for the working class.

Yep - gonna do it! :evil:

(quoted from post at 15:25:22 02/17/16) I think we are seeing the end of the middle class in the US. All the good paying factory jobs are leaving. I really don't see how the factories have a choice either, move or go out of business. Just look at how cheap imported window air conditioners and dehumidifiers are. Who knows, factories moving may also end pension obligations for the retirees or those who are about to retire.

I don't have any answers, but it sad for the working class.

Click to expand...

You are not seeing the end of the working middle class. What you are seeing is change. And no, not external_link's change. The day of getting out of high school and getting an OK paying job at 18 that you spend your life at is gone. Now at a minimum you have to have a trade school certificate. Gone to are the days when 50K a year was considered middle class. OH it's still middle class at the low end of the scale. But the new median for middle class is 80-100K a year with the high end somewhere between 130-150K or more a year. Prices have changed too. 40 years ago a 4X4 pickup was under 10K. Median income for middle class was around 50K. A nice split level house was in the 50-75K range. Now a nice home is in the 150-250K range. Everything has changed and will continue changing.

Rick

Where I live, I'm seeing the working
poor, $12.50 an hour. There are a lot
of people without skills working
for$8.50. I'm a landlord, see a lot of
people who can't make it on one income.
Going to lose a good tenant. She and
her mom had enough income. Mom just
passed, now she's going to be moving. I
think we are looking at creating a
working class POOR.

George I haven't seen anyone in the past 40 years that can make it on one income and own a home and support a family.

(quoted from post at 00:57:58 02/17/16) oldtanker-"The other option would be for the workers to accept much lower wages."

That brings up a really good question...Do you think that workers in the U.S.A. should just
adjust to lower pay that is equal to what is paid to workers in Mexico, China, Bangladesh, etc.?

Otherwise, there will not be too many jobs left in the US.

Click to expand...

Things like this always strike me because they ignore the obvious. All the "Buy AMERICAN!" posturing in the world won't change the fact that 90% of the consumers shop by price. You aren't going to get most of America to buy American made items that cost 4 or 5 or 20 times as much as the import product. They can't. They can't afford to buy American.

(quoted from post at 06:26:05 02/18/16) Where I live, I'm seeing the working
poor, $12.50 an hour. There are a lot
of people without skills working
for$8.50. I'm a landlord, see a lot of
people who can't make it on one income.
Going to lose a good tenant. She and
her mom had enough income. Mom just
passed, now she's going to be moving. I
think we are looking at creating a
working class POOR.

Click to expand...

There was a working class poor even back when I was a kid in the 60's. We just seem to ignore that fact.

Rick

Ha, yep I'm sure they will lower their prices now that they are paying $6/hour for labor instead of $20!!

(quoted from post at 08:52:09 02/18/16)

(quoted from post at 06:26:05 02/18/16) Where I live, I'm seeing the working
poor, $12.50 an hour. There are a lot
of people without skills working
for$8.50. I'm a landlord, see a lot of
people who can't make it on one income.
Going to lose a good tenant. She and
her mom had enough income. Mom just
passed, now she's going to be moving. I
think we are looking at creating a
working class POOR.

Click to expand...

There was a working class poor even back when I was a kid in the 60's. We just seem to ignore that fact.

Rick

Click to expand...

Yup. But the numbers are increasing, and there is no end in sight. I'm Michigan, we had a compressor plant shut down, something like 1500 direct employees. The state offered to build a new plant, and lease it to them for $1 per year. The company, Electrolux, turned it down. The labor savings would pay for a new plant in just over a year. The workers were making $12 to $15 per hour. And yeah, they went to Mexico.

"It's the lure of easy money. It's got a very strong appeal."

HIL and BERN are now saying $250,000 is the middle class income.

(quoted from post at 19:35:01 02/18/16)

(quoted from post at 08:52:09 02/18/16)

(quoted from post at 06:26:05 02/18/16) Where I live, I'm seeing the working
poor, $12.50 an hour. There are a lot
of people without skills working
for$8.50. I'm a landlord, see a lot of
people who can't make it on one income.
Going to lose a good tenant. She and
her mom had enough income. Mom just
passed, now she's going to be moving. I
think we are looking at creating a
working class POOR.

Click to expand...

There was a working class poor even back when I was a kid in the 60's. We just seem to ignore that fact.

Rick

Click to expand...

Yup. But the numbers are increasing, and there is no end in sight.

Click to expand...

Or it could be we lived through the Golden Age of wages and the numbers are returning to reality. Never in history, including American history has there been a period where the wages for the masses remained high. In historical terms, there was the rich, ruling class (the 1%) and then there was everyone else.

Yes, the world is returning to the norm.