What do you think of OEMs talkingto your car/truck/tractor

I really HATE the trend to link everything by GPS/computer/cell phone signal. I feel it is an invasion of my privacy for any OEM to communicate with my property without my permission. My car/truck/tractor are all my "property" not the OEMs after I BUY it.

Court case that JD and other companies are advancing stating that "THEY" own the property and we just have the usage rights is BS!!!!! If this prevails than shortly you will own very little of anything.

This is an extension of the seed patients on the GMO products. They have it to where your basically locked into buying your seed from them forever because you can't "keep" anything you grow because they say they own the GENES/DNA of the seed.

We do own GPS systems for our tractors and combines. They are NOT OEM systems. We can turn them off and the equipment still functions maybe without some automatic functions like "auto steer" but it can still be driven.

With OnStar and some other systems, you can have your car disabled externally regardless of the fact you maybe driving it LEGALLY with it paid for. Law enforcement would LOVE to have every car with a shut down remote that THEY could use when ever they wanted to. Banks would like it too to insure payment. Late on your payment your car will not move. Sound like fiction???? I have heard of some JD systems in Europe that can disable the equipment if your behind on payments.

I view all of these type of things as slow erosion of our freedoms and rights. We are slowly going back into surf/lord types of cultures to where a few control the many. The controls just will be economic instead of land/home. You will still be a surf under someone else's thumb. The Politicos would LOVE to have that type of control over the "SHEEP/voters" of this country.

JD the response will be that you may own the iron but the OEM controls the technology forever. You know if the cops can shut off your car, it will not be long before the bad guys can too. But you may not be driving it will be your wife or children

Yea that certainly is a disappointing turn society has taken. It really is against the spirit of the USA and all that, but my voice probably doesn't matter.

Paul

JD Seller- I've been reading stories for around two years now, where car dealers install a device that can disable the car if payment is not made. The car has to be parked before the device will disable it. Been going on for a while here in the USA.

You are correct that Deere has the ability to disable equipment remotely. They just choose not to use that feature in North America. JD Link can also be disabled if one wants to. I sure hope that if the manufacturers want to "own" the technology forever they should be liable for making sure it operates forever. Once that equipment is 20 years old, and the software gets corrupted, I doubt the manufacturer will still want to claim it is "theirs".

I think the seed companies have a little more ground to stand on, as seed is a consumable good, unlike iron which is durable.

Now who do you vote for to get this stuff stopped? The blue side doesn't want individual control of much of anything, and the red side goes with the business money...

I clicked on a segment on my MSN homepage this morning. It was talking about the fate of production line workers and robotics. Said that unemployment in that sector of manufacturing could rise to 50%. It also addressed the new android controlled cars, trucks, trains, and busses, and how it would affect the transportation industry.
Also what might happen if the new artificial intellagence got smart enough to control it's own destiny. The human race would be considered a waste of energy and doomed.
Loren

I should have said intellagent robotics in the first bit about production line work.
Loren

People today are too ready to turn control of things over to someone else. They are told it will make their lives better/simpler when in reality it is just more slow erosion of their freedom.

I compare much of today's population to the hogs being feed in total confinement. They have everything provided to them except freedom and they are getting fat an happy while slaughter is just around the corner.

Also the good and bad guys will have the capacity to remote control things if anyone can. The wizards of smart always think they are the good fellows and will prevail over the forces of evil. The forces of evil are usually just as smart or smarter than the fellow that design this stuff.

Interesting subject. I can see both sides of the non payment thing. We, as a society, have done it to ourselves though. Go back a couple of hundred years, credit was not that easy to get, especially for large items. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I do know the credit card as we know it didn't exist until the 50's. My parents didn't have many things they paid out on credit. And it was pretty hard to get a lot of it if you didn't know a banker.

I work at a place that sells electronic supplies and other related things. We have six or eight "note lots" that sell used (really used) cars for a down payment and weekly payments after that. They all buy the various terminals and other hardware from us to install the GPS devices on every car they sell. It stays on the car even after it's paid for, kind of a "gentleman's" agreement I guess. I have asked them if I buy one of their cars for cash will they remove the device, yes, if I ask. I don't like it, but every one of them says they have to do it. Too many times they get a down payment and never see the car again.

Now, as far as the "intellectual property" of JD and GM goes. I agree that anything you buy and get a title for should be yours to do what you will with it. I can assure you that a 2 or 3 hundred thousand dollar tractor will include in the price anything you can think of to use it for. That being said, I imagine the new bills of sale will say something about it now.

Do I like it??? Nope, and I'm thinking seriously about refurbishing my '84 Dodge truck and making it new again. I can work on it and make it without all that much in electronic tattle tales.

JD,

Along the lines of GMO where Washington farmers have been driven into bankruptcy trying to fight big brother, because some of their patented seed plants sprung up in his crop. Pretty easy for their operatives to drive along on a windy day with a truck load of their seed conveniently blowing into fields.

The BLM is now heavily armed and stealing Oregon land rights and land.

Close to home an elderly lady friend was recently at an airport all packed and ready to travel, and was shocked to find herself on the "No Fly, No Buy List", the brainchild of external_link's very first Chief of Staff, appointee after his election. So she fought back and forth with them and as ALWAYS, they will not tell you are on the list and you can't get off. They did however assign her a number that she now has to present in order to fly.

And right there is a classic in what tyrants strive for; they took her God-given right to fly and turned it into a PRIVILEGE!
Mission accomplished, because a privilege granted by them can be revoked at their will. Funny thing is that she is a total babe in the woods as far as reality politics goes.

But all of what you've mentioned and worse is actually a fulfillment of a Thomas Jefferson prophecy:

"If America ever gives control of its currency to these international bankers, the banks and the corporations that spring up around them (and dependent on them) will deprive people of all property and prosperity, until their children wake up homeless in the land their fathers conquered."
Thomas Jefferson.

Well they got that control with the crooked passage of the Federal Reserve act of Dec. 1913.

Because the tyrants know full well that their Geoengineering program that fills the skies everywhere with a blanket of aluminum Oxide (I see it in the skies forum tractor photos all the time but sheeple won't believe it) . . . Monsanto is now producing their helpful patented Aluminum resistant seed.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
Thomas Jefferson

I urge everyone to watch The Money Masters by Bill Still on You Tube. I guarantee it will be the greatest history lesson you've ever learned.

Tall T- Hey, you forgot to list the shooter from the 'grassy knoll' too!!! LOL

(quoted from post at 20:03:40 02/14/16) Tall T- Hey, you forgot to list the shooter from the 'grassy knoll' too!!! LOL

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And it is ignorant fools like you that guarantee things will only get worse.

Do yourself a favor and force yourself to search out John Kennedy's Executive Order #11110 if you actually give a hoot about why he was killed.

He did a heroic thing and because of it was the last TRUEl president. He tried to take control of the people's money away from the FED because like Jefferson he knew the root of all our troubles.

Tall T- "And it is ignorant fools like you that guarantee things will only get worse."

Now you've gone and done it! You hurt my feelings. LOL!

(quoted from post at 20:21:07 02/14/16) Tall T- "And it is ignorant fools like you that guarantee things will only get worse."

Now you've gone and done it! You hurt my feelings. LOL!

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I don't even see what I wrote in response to JD Seller so I can only assume you are the "wise and helpful" moderator who deleted it.

But that wasn't enough revenge for your cocky disposition obviously.

Tall T- BTW, tell Clive and his boys....Not to drop the soap!

Tall T- Naw, 'revenge is a dish best served cold'.

JD is arguing that the software on their controls modules is licensed to you just like Microsoft word or Excel. You own your computer but you buy a license to use Word or Excel and not make copies.

The problem is a lack of competition. There are other computer programs and Freeware you can use. In the case of JD now, conveniently for them, only the dealer can work on the junky thing when it quits or goes berserk.

Have you heard a phrase, "The Internet of Things". If you haven't I suggest you google search it and see where common household items are going. Did you miss that bit in the news about the Samsung TV's that literally listen to what's going on in a house and transmit it via the internet to a 3rd party. I'm sure that's not the only device that has that capability.

Komatsu has also had the ability to shut down it's equipment for a few years now. I don't remember exactly how it worked, I've been out of that field a few years now, but I believe once it was shut off, it would not restart, and I believe the dealer had the ability to have it disabled.

Ross

I'm not too worried about being monitored by the OEM. What does bother me is being at their mercy when it comes to keeping something running!

We're already being subject to electronics so sophisticated it is impossible or economically impractical to service them outside of the dealership. They may already be making some that require direct link support in order to stay running and legal! Who knows? How would you know?

With that kind of control the OEM would have ultimate say on the life of the vehicle! How hard would it be to put a 7 year timer in an ECM that would shut it down, no replacement offered, everything coded to work together so no salvage parts would interchange? Trust me, they haven't overlooked this scenario! Only a matter of time!

All I know about it is when I discovered where on the screen my new laptops' camera is I put a piece of electrical tape over it! :twisted:

IF you go to the junk yard go lay in the trunk of a newer GM car. Lay in there and look straight up to the under side of the package shelf. There is a little box about the size of a pack of twinkies. If you pop of the cover you will see it is made by TRW and has an antenna in it. Want to guess what that one is for?

Another good reason to own an older car or truck. Now days who know who is tracking you and who knows why they are doing so. This day and age well it is sad that things are as they are. No one should know where I go or why I go or when I sit in well any place

Currently the newest thing I own is the wifes '02 PT Cruiser. If things go well, by mid summer, my '87 F150 will be sold and I'll be in a '78 F350. When more funds ar available, my wife will be in something nice, but definitely pre '80.

To me all of the electronics are nothing but junk that's designed with no other reason than to obsolete vehicles far before their time. I say that, but given that I work in several salvage yards, I can say that for all the bragging about newer vehicles lasting longer than the older ones, I see just the opposite. It's amazing how many vehicles that are 10 years old, or less, that come into the yards either ragged completely out in the appearance department, or looking pristine, but with nothing more wrong than a blown engine, or even a minor problem that's not worth rebuilding.

On that note, I watched a guy drive a relatively nice looking mini-van into a yard the other week and scrap it out. I asked him about it because the tag on it was still good for another few months. He said it was a driver, but had a transmission leak that was going to cost more to repair than the whole thing was worth....and he didn't have time to mess with it, so it was scrap.....

Seeing things like this makes me sick...........

I'll take my older vehicles and tractors any day of the week........anyone that wants the new electronic junk can have it.....

If a machine is used as collateral on a loan and the buyer falls behind on his payments, the loan is then in default. Doesn't the lender have a right to repossess the machine as they feel fit? The info is right there in the loan contract.

I agree with you. I did not buy the on-star feature with my 04 chevy and wanted to have it completely disabled, it is so buried in the roof that you have to basically disable the vehicle to get it out. Then I needed to get into the electronics and found out GM "lost" the ability when I didn't buy the feature. I find that hard to believe.
When I worked for the government I was surprise to find there is disagreement within the ranks of programmers and software companies some thinking they own the "intellectual" property forever and some believing if you pay for the programing you own it all. A very interesting discussion. For example if you work for General Dynamics the customer pays for the programming and therefore owns it all while BAE believes the other way.

What happens when the computer system reboots or just shuts down. I saw this when generators started going to computer systems for control. The system would shut down or reboot for no reason. Caused a lot of headaches and made some gensets unreliable.We also had a problem with lightning strikes knocking out the system. Not by being hit but just by being near the location where it hit. Also had a problem with radio transmitters shutting things down.
So if you are out plowing and pass by a transmitter site or under a power line.Who pays for the damage to your equipment.

My brother retired from the Air Force. Told me several YF 117s were brought down. Because they flew to close to a tower. Transmission waves shut the system off.Not something you want in a flying brick.

(quoted from post at 18:46:31 02/14/16) I really HATE the trend to link everything by GPS/computer/cell phone signal. I feel it is an invasion of my privacy for any OEM to communicate with my property without my permission. My car/truck/tractor are all my "property" not the OEMs after I BUY it.

Court case that JD and other companies are advancing stating that "THEY" own the property and we just have the usage rights is BS!!!!! If this prevails than shortly you will own very little of anything.

This is an extension of the seed patients on the GMO products. They have it to where your basically locked into buying your seed from them forever because you can't "keep" anything you grow because they say they own the GENES/DNA of the seed.

We do own GPS systems for our tractors and combines. They are NOT OEM systems. We can turn them off and the equipment still functions maybe without some automatic functions like "auto steer" but it can still be driven.

With OnStar and some other systems, you can have your car disabled externally regardless of the fact you maybe driving it LEGALLY with it paid for. Law enforcement would LOVE to have every car with a shut down remote that THEY could use when ever they wanted to. Banks would like it too to insure payment. Late on your payment your car will not move. Sound like fiction???? I have heard of some JD systems in Europe that can disable the equipment if your behind on payments.

I view all of these type of things as slow erosion of our freedoms and rights. We are slowly going back into surf/lord types of cultures to where a few control the many. The controls just will be economic instead of land/home. You will still be a surf under someone else's thumb. The Politicos would LOVE to have that type of control over the "SHEEP/voters" of this country.

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I have heard of some oeople who have these remote devices deactivated or removed from the vehicle.

Things are not always what they seem. I work for a large corporation administrating a mobile device management system (mostly iphone and android devices). Basically all our corporate devices must have this app on the device, and communicate with our server. Similarly, many feel this is big brother spying somehow by having the ability to enable the device camera, or see photos, read their email communications, calls they make, etc. None of this is possible. Just because vehicles have remote communication devices on them, does not mean they can see or control everything on the vehicle. I know our corporation has a software package installed on all pc's and laptops that have capability to remote the computer, but what most do not realize is that it prompts the individual prior to actually controlling the device, and if the user declines to accept, it terminates the session. The software is simply to assist the individual and make life easier and prevent having to ship the device back for simple help desk type issues. Don't get me wrong, some technology makes life more difficult, but just pointing out that not all of it is malicious, and is to make life easier. Now, it is up to each of us to determine what is acceptable and to many, none is, but if that is the case, I would recommend staying with a carburetor, point ignition type vehicle. (I like both but for different reasons).

Using OnStar or JDLink to demobilize a piece of equipment because of late payments doesn't really bother me much. If that's where they could leave it, I'd be fine with it. With OnStar and possibly JDLink, I'd like some way to demobilize the system altogether.

I remember your post about OnStar a while back,(quite a while back, dave2 was still here) and part of me was like this guy is a kook,(kook may not be the best word) but an even bigger part of me said that there is a lot of truth to what you were saying. If left alone, there's nothing to fear with these systems. But between the people that don't have your best interest in mind, and an ever expanding government, it's a scary thing. I'd tend to say that the OEM's are the least of your worries, but you put Deere in the mix, one of the least ethical companies out there(the same can be said for GM), you begin to think that they could cause you grief down the road too. Like I said befoe though, some way to disable the system, and I'd be fine with it. There is always a way to disable it. It may cause a code, but it won't disable a vehicle. Unhook the antenna from OnStar. You could likely get the dealer to disable JDLink through Service Advisor by switching it off right at the address. Either that, or on some I think you can pull a fuse, or again you could unhook the antenna. Don't cut the antenna cable, but unhook where it connects to the controller.

I have a '14 Camry, and as far as a late model car goes, it's not a super complicated car. It employs CanBUS, but has no TPMS, and nothing in the way an OnStar like system. Toyota, the police, etc, have no ability to communicate with this car. I looked at a Chevy Cruze, and though it was a small part of my decision, I'll admit that Onstar did deter me some. That and it was a small car with a fairly new diesel engine.

I can see their point with GMO. They did do the R&D to come up with said genetics in said seed. It's easily abused and they basically police it themselves, but I can see why they want to protect it.

Now for the ownership thing. Apple is one of the worst for this, as is Microsoft, with EULA. I don't think Deere or GM will ever convince the courts that they should own the vehicle as a whole, and we are simply allowed to use it. I think it may get to the point that they convince them that they wholly own the software. This part of it is easy enough to get around. It's been done before. There are people out there that are lots smart enough to write their own program, and download it as a payload, wiping Deere's own payload off as it does so. (Basically the same thing a dealer does when they update or refresh the payload on a tractor.)
I also think it will get to the point where laws will be introduced that will force Deere to release the part of SA that allows a person to connect to the equipment. Between emissions laws that forced OBDI and II, and right to repair laws, I think it will eventually extend to AG and const.

As for not owning a newer vehicle, the biggest reason I don't like newer vehicles is because of the unnecessary complication. I have a 2000 GMC old body style truck. To me that was a sweet spot. Enough electronics to make things more user friendly, the engine more efficient, the transmission more reliable, but not to the point of sheer stupidity. Everything I need to do on that 2000 truck can be done from a simple scanner.(Like a SO Solus Pro, which can be bought reasonable now) Really nothing complicated about it. As you would well know, the 00 and 10 series Deere fell into this category as well. Just enough electronics, but not completely carried away. Now you may still be a SGB era guy, but I don't think you'll find a guy that has a thing against any Waterloo 100 or 10 series. Mannheim maybe left a little to be desired with the 6000 series, but still a very good tractor. Likely the best in that class at the time. The 6010 were that much better IMO. The 20 series was a whole other story. How does a company go from making the best it ever made, to the worst, in one move? Granted not all 20 series are bad, but the 6020 and small frame 7020 are a 'Run Forest Run' type machine. That's my thoughts on that.