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Any electricians want some work LOL

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
About eight years ago I updated the cattle yards at the farm. Part of this project was removing the overhead wiring and putting it all under ground. This included the service to the silos and some grain bins. That part is a 400 AMP service run.

Well last night my son called me and said he did not have any power at the silos. So he finished feeding out of the silage bags. This morning I went over and check things over looking for the problem. One leg of the 220 Volt feed is dead/shorted to ground.

Now the "fun" part. This main feed is 1400 feet from the supply panel. All of the wires are ran underground inside of a 4" schedule 80 PVC conduit. We dug a four feet deep trench and then filled the bottom one foot with sand. This we compacted and laid the conduit an back filled in layers compacting the fill is layers to ground level. So the conduit should be protected from external damage. The real problem is that over 900 feet of this run is under the cattle yard extension, six inch thick concrete slab. So I sure hope the issue is just a bad spot in the insulation on the wire.

So I went and got a 2000" roll of 5/16 cable. This is what we pulled the original wires through the conduit with. So in the morning we will try to pull the existing wires out with the cable tied/clamped to them. If it is just bad wires I will just pull new ones back with the cable.

How we pulled the cable the last time we attached a snach block about fifty feet up the silo. We then ran the cable up and over that. We pulled the cable with a small tractor. It took a long day to pull it in. I bet that it will take longer coming out. Plus it is fifty degrees colder now too.

The middle son is giving me heck about burying the electric service. Well there were several CLOSE calls with augers and blower pipes around the overhead wires.

So if you want some fun come on out. You can help guide wires and cable. The high tomorrow is supposed to be 8 degrees. I sure hope the wind lays. It howled all day today making the wind chill pretty bad.
 

JD Seller- You might want to see if'n you can buy this lubricant in 55 gallon drums!

Good Luck
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Greg we used a soap lubrication that came in five gallon buckets. The worry I have is did that lubricant dry up in the conduit and become sticky???
 
JD Seller- This is the stuff I used when I pulled service line for hog barn, almost 20 years ago. It's still slick but thicker.
 
Greg I hope this lube stayed slick. It was a hard pull then. We broke a 1/4 cable and had to start over. Just the weight of the wires is more than you think.
 
JD Seller- This is 'outside the box' thinking but, if the current line ends up being hard to pull....since it's 'soap' could it be water based? If so, could you just fill the conduit up with water to re-hydrate the "soap lubrication"? then pull out the old line.
 
I had thought about that too. Would the water harm the new wire???? I am thinking that we skinned a spot on the insulation while we were pulling the original wire in. I think I will take my lathe and make a funnel shaped adaptor for the end of the conduit so there is less chance of the end of the conduit damaging the insulation.
 
I was in a similar situation a couple of weeks ago. At about 9:45 one night, half the lights in my house went out. I suspected almost immediately what I eventually proved, one of the underground mains had opened up. The underground wiring was installed in 2004, and for some reason, one of them opened up. I trenched a new line to my house, the trencher I used for free, the 4-4-2 wiring cost me about $1000.
I still need to get it covered up. I'm waiting for the ground to thaw so I can get the dirt pushed back into the trenches. We had several long extension cords in our house to keep some of the main appliances working. I'll never take electricity for granted again.
 
JD Seller- As for the water in the line...if you get the old line out, maybe call a Septic tank vacuum truck to suck out the water in the conduit. (just a thought).

You are already gonna have a chunk of money invested in the wire, what's the $200-$400 charge of the septic truck. LOL
 
I know more about electricity than dealing with single digit temperatures (thank God), but at 8 degrees, will the line be frozen at 4 ft deep? You can bet there will at least be some water in it.

Are there any elbows in the run? Thinking the steel cable may have cut into the PVC going around any bends, causing sharp edges that could strip insulation. If the only bends are where it turns up or down, that may be where the problem is.
 

JD Seller- I went to bed and was thinking about your situation. Thought of something and wanted to post this thought.


When installing the previous service line, you snaked the cable 1400 feet to the other end, then you connected this cable to the service line and pulled the service line through the conduit.

My question...did you put some kind of blocking or roller down in the conduit to keep the cable from rubbing/cutting/burning the inside curve of the 90 degree swoop while you pulled the 1400 feet of cable/service line?

The reason I ask is, if the pulling of the cable did cut a hole in the swoop then water already has a way into the conduit. Much like how this cable cutter is used to cut PVC...

32732.jpg
 
Could you put an access box somewhere in the middle? Then you could pull it 1/2 way and then pull again. Would cut pulling demand in half.
 
When you laid the original conduit, did you install any slip connectors so the conduit could expand and contract without breaking? A break in the conduit will let water in, and when the water freezes it can break or short out a damaged wire. Install some sort bushing on the end of the conduit that has no sharp edges when you go to pull the new wire.

Is the wire AL or CU? AL can deteriorate on it's own and burn out - so our power company learned. Troubles ended when they replaced all the AL with CU wire.
 
(quoted from post at 05:27:44 02/10/16) When you laid the original conduit, did you install any slip connectors so the conduit could expand and contract without breaking? A break in the conduit will let water in, and when the water freezes it can break or short out a damaged wire. Install some sort bushing on the end of the conduit that has no sharp edges when you go to pull the new wire.

Is the wire AL or CU? AL can deteriorate on it's own and burn out - so our power company learned. Troubles ended when they replaced all the AL with CU wire.
Click to expand...
specially if there is a splice in that 1400 feet.
 
You might stop by your local electrical company barn, ask how they pull 1500' of underground. They will be pulling primary, different thing, but will give you an idea.
 
Would it be worth having an electrician test it to see where the problem is. Maybe it could be dug up and repaired or put an access box in for a splice if it isn't under the concrete. The line to my shop burned out one leg and electrician friend brought his tester to locate it, I dug it up, he repaired it.
 
Was the buried electric line installed by an electrician/contractor or was it a homemade installation?
 
Just a thought Jd with that long of a pull in conduit, you may want to see if you can find a cable tugger with a tension meter. Years ago i worked for an electrical contractor at a nuke plant. We used a tugger on all long pulls to avoid damaging the power cables. Each cable has a rating so you dont cause an internal break in the power cables.
 
JDSeller, and others....That conduit has water in it, and will have water in it regardless if it's broken/cut/whatever. Bury pipe and it will have water find it's way in.

I HIGHLY advise AGAINST using steel cable in PVC conduit, at a 90? elbow it can and WILL saw through the bcc sidewall.

Get a braided bullrope, they are less LIKELY to do such things, but I use GRC (galvanized rigid conduit) 90?'s in such runs, it makes for much less worry during a wire pull.

I've made some long pulls, longer and bigger than this and not had any issue.

I have a tugger setup that would help big time, if I were closed I'd come help.....but south west ohio is a bit of a haul.....lol
 
See my other post about having an open wire.
I fully agree with your post, but it's not a perfect world. A local electrician brags about having an open finder. He has even done some work for my employer. But when he came out to my house, his finder was clueless. He told me it was the first time that it had ever happened. He dug a single hole, found no problems and then told me that by the time he dug 2 or 3 more holes that it would be worth it just to buy new wire. He loaded up his backhoe, packed away his "open finder" locator, told me that he wouldn't charge me for his time, and hit the road. I haven't got a bill yet.
 
Ouch, that sucks. It doesn't take much of a nick in the insulation to cause that wire to go bad, and it can go quickly. I scraped the insulation with a shovel on e and it went bad within a year, this wasn't all the way through the insulation but just the first layer. Any chance rodents are getting in the pipe next to the wire? 4" is big enough to allow that. Like the other guys said, that cable will saw through plastic but it sounds like you've got it under control. A good locater may be able to detect just where the fault is in case it won't pull out for one reason or another. It's a good idea to put in conduit like you did to help protect it. Like the others said, I'd gladly help but you'll be done before I get there.
 
Bruce it is two silos and six bins plus the grain leg. Plus the way the silos and lots set there is not much room close so you have to have a cord 100 long or so to get to the silos. Then we have corn to haul on a weekly basis. We take corn to the starch plant and bring back wet gluten feed twice each week.
 
I know I would be absolutely sure the problem was inside that conduit before pulling the wires out!

Our frost-free line here is 42" deep, so you hopefully are not frozen solid inside your conduit. The sand below the conduit should have helped drain.

I know we have had some wires in steel conduit at work that cannot be pulled out, and new conduit was required. Tough to get it poured into the original concrete! The specialists that we brought in used Coke poured into the conduit to eat the rust and re-liquify the original lube.

hope it goes better than expected!
 
Sparktician: The two long nineties on each end are stainless. There are three slip/expansion joints in the run. These are supposed to be water tight. We will find out after chores. If it does not pull then we will wait for warmer weather.

After replying to Bruce's comment I got to thinking about using the generator. I could put it on the out side of the grain bins and use the wiring to "back feed" the silos. That would get us by until warmer weather if we can pull the wire today.

As to the fellow asking about the original installation. We did all the grunt work but a good friend is a retired certified electrician. He help with the plan and did all the actual "box" work in the panels. So I am pretty sure we do not have anything wrong above ground.

Also there is not way for there to be a splice box in the middle. That would be in the middle of the cattle yards. If the conduit is compromised I can go around the yards. Then I would need spliced boxes as the run would be over 2500 feet then. If we can't find the problem that is more than likely what we will do.
 
JD , first I wish you the best of luck with the wire . Having retired as an electrician of 40 years, I have had very good luck pulling old wire out and new in. However if you cannot get old out, a directional boring machine might be the answer to put new pipe in the ground. These guys can realy hit the target. Just have to dig the ends up. joe
 
If you can't insulate the problem and fix it, I would consider going overhead until the weather improves and you can do the underground job right.
 
It's not gonna help now but when we run under ground (and it's all under ground now) we run an extra wire for back up...Murphy's Law works way too well around here...Darn it..
 
I would clear both ends of the bad conductor and take a resistance reading to a good ground. A low resistance reading probably won't be in the conduit unless you have a splice in there. High resistance could be a pin hole bleeding thru water. Tommy
 
Like the sparky said all pipes are filled with water . It is bad practice to use a vehicle to pull wire. Rent a tugger. Have a guy on the feed side with 5 gallons of pulling lube soaping and two guys raising the wire to not scrape the pipe.Have the bushing installed [they will break but be replaced after the pull. Pull out all your present feeders and inspect them for the nick then pull in the unscrewed up ones with the new leg. You will never add a wire to a run with wire in it as it will just twist around each other and pull the whole mess out. It takes a crew to pull wire right. Use a rope not cable.
 
(quoted from post at 09:26:41 02/10/16) John M: YEs the supply end is fine. There is a short in the one wire inside the conduit.
Click to expand...
ot trying to be a S.A, but you can not have a "short in one wire" inside a plastic conduit, as the one wire has to short to something & inside plastic, that would be to another wire, or water (high resistance).
 
What is the voltage. You sure the power is coming through the disconnect on the other end. Water gets in to the pipes from condensation and other parts. I would do some checking before I pulled it out. Is there a grounding conductor in your pipe run?
 
Are you pulling this wire yourself ? .Because if you are there is alot more to it I will tell you about . { Like the clevis and the nose]. Thought about your post earlier.
 
(quoted from post at 19:38:57 02/10/16) Are you pulling this wire yourself ? .Because if you are there is alot more to it I will tell you about . { Like the clevis and the nose]. Thought about your post earlier.
Click to expand...
nless I'm missing a decimal point or something, this whole deal seems odd. 1400 feet, 240 volt, 400 amp. Sticking with a reasonable, near code voltage drop, just look at the wire size needed! Not enough zeros to define gauge. 0000+++.
 
(quoted from post at 19:51:14 02/10/16)
(quoted from post at 19:38:57 02/10/16) Are you pulling this wire yourself ? .Because if you are there is alot more to it I will tell you about . { Like the clevis and the nose]. Thought about your post earlier.
Click to expand...
nless I'm missing a decimal point or something, this whole deal seems odd. 1400 feet, 240 volt, 400 amp. Sticking with a reasonable, near code voltage drop, just look at the wire size needed! Not enough zeros to define gauge. 0000+++.
Click to expand...
as thinking the same thing. I checked Voltage Drop calculation for a 1400 ft run at 120/220 with 4/0 copper wire at 400 A and it's about 14v drop. Aluminum is about 21v.
 
(quoted from post at 21:48:10 02/10/16)
(quoted from post at 19:51:14 02/10/16)
(quoted from post at 19:38:57 02/10/16) Are you pulling this wire yourself ? .Because if you are there is alot more to it I will tell you about . { Like the clevis and the nose]. Thought about your post earlier.
Click to expand...
nless I'm missing a decimal point or something, this whole deal seems odd. 1400 feet, 240 volt, 400 amp. Sticking with a reasonable, near code voltage drop, just look at the wire size needed! Not enough zeros to define gauge. 0000+++.
Click to expand...
as thinking the same thing. I checked Voltage Drop calculation for a 1400 ft run at 120/220 with 4/0 copper wire at 400 A and it's about 14v drop. Aluminum is about 21v.
Click to expand...
omething missing &/or more here than meets the eye!
 

What is the actual load way out there 1400ft from the service ? Odds are a 100 amp service would suffice and down size the cable . An armoured tech cable pulled into that raceway would be more robust than TWU direct bury cable.
 
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