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Flint's lead in water ?

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
I just don't understand. News says that because Flint changed water suppliers, somehow that caused the lead in the pipes to get in the water. If you look closely, the TV is showing an iron pipe, there is rust where it was cut. So is the source of the lead the pipes or did the lead come from the water supply? If the pipes were the source of the lead, why didn't that cause the problem sooner?
 
Been thinkin the same thing, the way they talk it sounds like the lead came in the water which makes no sense. If its from lead pipes it has always been there. Jim
 
My guess is that the source is the water supply since the only thing that changed is the water supply. I've worked in East Chicago, IN. a few times and a couple of things caught my eyes when I was there. I don't recall what their water towers say on them, but as I recall say something related to polluted water. I don't recall what though. Next time I'm working there, I'll take a look. Something else that caught my eye was that it seems as though every time I drive over a bridge there and look down, there are orange colored signs along the river(s), water ways warning not to touch or go into the water because it's so polluted. That's East Chicago, IN. It's sounding to me like Flint is having a similar problem. As I understand it, Flint used to get its water through Detroit which got its water from either Lake St. Claire or Lake Erie, I'm not sure which. Chicago does similar where it gets its water from Lake Michigan, and then surrounding suburbs get their water from Lake Michigan through Chicago at a charge from Chicago. But as I understand it, to save costs, Flint took it upon themselves and changed water sources from Detroit to some obviously polluted river in or around Flint, and now the rest is...news. The thing that I don't understand is that with every report that I've heard so far, it was Flint that took it upon themselves to change their water source, did so, but somehow it's now the state governor's fault. That part, I do not understand.

Mark
 
What you will not hear on the nightly news is that there is lead in the water of all large cities.

Dean
 
The thing that I don't understand is that with every report that I've heard so far, it was Flint that took it upon themselves to change their water source, did so, but somehow it's now the state governor's fault. That part, I do not understand.

Easy. The governor is a nnalert.

Dean
 
They changed suppliers from lake Huron to the flint river. that river would give the cuyahoga river a run for the most Polluted. It could also be that the water is more acidic causing the lead to be leached from the pipes, even copper pipes used lead to join them.
 
I've followed this because, being a Hokie, I was intrigued that a VT scholar was involved in chasing this down. It appears that the shift in water supply altered the pH and increased the corrosion of the metals. Old piping had a higher level of lead as well as solder. The water from the Flint river is leaching lead out of the infrastructure and into the water. Also predicted was the appearance of Legionella.
 
It's been going on for a while. nnalert found out about it two weeks ago. Need I say more? She alerted the national media and the activists.

My take on the whole thing? nnalert Jennifer Granholm was governor of this state for 8 years prior to nnalert Snyder. The DEQ was run by her people. external_link's been president for 7 years with his people in charge of the EPA. It's just a given that between the two of them,any rational person would have to believe that the water in the Flint River would be as clean and pure as the spring water in Kitch-iti-kipi. If you believe the nnalert and the media,nobody would have expected governor Snyder to have cleaned it up.
If it wasn't cleaned up after 8 years of Granholm's DEQ,and 7 years of external_link's EPA,why not? Are they,or did they,only use those agencies to harass anybody who participated in any type of human activity instead of using them to clean up pollution???
 
You're right there. Ultimately, lead in the end product of radioactive decay of uranium and others, and they appear pretty much everywhere. Some parts of the US have incredible naturally occurring lead levels.
 
Hate to break you the bad news folks, but I use to work for a big municipality and was part of the water and sewer crew. I was the backhoe man. but many of times had to get into the hole and help with repairs. Being a farm boy I really got a wake up call when it came to city water. the minute a 8 or 10 inch water main was opened up I could smell the clorine water, it was terrible. The rest of the crew all lived in the city and was use to it.
Now getting onto the lead, I helped remove and replace a lot of old fire hydrants and that was the big shocker.
the amount of lead used to joint the pipes together was unbelievable.
just like the small copper pipes in older homes, (probably 90 percent of the houses in the world)
the municipalities used tonnes not pounds of lead to joint the old cast pipes from the water tower to the fire hydrants to the service pipes that feed every house, restaruant and business.
they are slowly replacing them with plastic, but its millions and millions of dollars to do.
and is the plastic any safer??
the lead has always been there but different chlorines and florides that the cities mix into the water has rumours that its loosening and reacting with the lead and causing it to flow more into the water.
and yes there is lots of rust in the big 8 and 10 inch pipes that no one ever gets to see as well
You have to remember that alot of these water mains were put in the 1940s or earlier
thats why you will hear about the cities doing testing of lead in your house water. its not ONLY because of the small amount of lead that was used to join the pipes in the house but because of the huge amount of lead used to solder the joints of these old water mains. Just my two cents worth.
 
Here's why. Just like most large cities,the mayor was nothing but an unqualified celebrity token with no management skills whatsoever. To say Flint was a financial disaster would be the understatement of the century. So,as was called for under Michigan law,the governor appointed an emergency manager. That manager was responsible for switching Flint's water supply from Detroit to the Flint River in order to save money.
 
It came to lite about 6 months ago. Flint was being run by an emergency manager appointed by our governor. He decided he could save a buck by getting city water from the Flint River instead of buying water from the Detroit water system. General Motors dumped their crap in that river for years until they pretty much pulled out of Flint. When the lead in their water was first discovered nobody paid much attention to it. Then it became a political point and the rest of the world found out about it.

Thank God, my Daughter and two Granddaughters who live in Flint never drank the water. Although they do bath in it and pay a ridicules water bill every month Like 200 and some odd dollars.
 
When Governor Snyder came to power, he dismissed the elected city government and installed a city manager, who as one of his first acts changed water suppliers to cut costs. The new supply, from the Flint River, is both extremely corrosive and extremely polluted. Corrosive to the point that GM could not use it in manufacturing because it was eating holes in castings. When that water hit those old pipes, it immediately began leaching high levels of lead into the drinking water, which was foul to begin with. There appears to have been a substantial effort at a cover-up by the Governor's office, since it was his decision to install the people who made this decision. Properly installed, leaded joint water mains, while not the modern method, are the least of most cities' water distribution infrastructure problems.
 
The folks in flint had no say in the matter, as Randy said, they had a emergency manager, appointed by Synder, that made the decision.

The real issue is why they didn't do something about it right away. Instead, they spent more than a year trying to cover it, even denying that there was a problem. It's going to be a case of who knew what, when.

There are 8000 kids that got poisoned. You can't fix . They are damaged for life. Look up lead poisoning, the damage is irreversible.
 
Probably George Bush fault lol lol external_link blames everything on him even after 8 years, why change now

John T
 
The situation is fairly straight-forward: much of the water distribution system is ancient, dating back to the 1920s. Lots of cast-iron and even some lead pipe. This hasn't been a problem with the water supplied by Detroit, because Detroit treats water for corrosion control and Lake Huron water isn't particularly corrosive to begin with. Over the years, the old pipes have become coated with a layer of minerals that protects the water from metals leaching into it. When Flint switched from Detroit water, they did not add any phosphate to the water for corrosion control, and Flint River water is highly corrosive to boot. The corrosive water stripped away the protective coating in the pipes and started corroding the pipes themselves. This caused lead to enter the water at older homes that have lead in their water lines and plumbing.

For a long time, everybody was in denial about the problem. This even though residents immediately complained about the color and taste of their water after it was switched to the Flint River. Now everybody is pointing their fingers at everyone else. Both the Flint water department and the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality SHOULD have understood the importance of proper corrosion control treatment. Yet the water department did not treat the water with phosphate, and MDEQ sat on its hands and let the water department get away with it. And it's quite possible the state-appointed financial manager would have vetoed spending money on corrosion-control treatment had the water department requested it, although I've seen nothing that indicates the matter ever came up. Governor Snyder, for his part, has taken a "the buck stops here" approach and apologized for the state's role in this fiasco.

Note that the original plan to switch Flint's water to the Flint River seemed like a "no-brainer". It saved the city a million bucks a month! And it was only supposed to be temporary until Flint could tie into a new regional water district in a year or two. Moral of the story: Sometimes the "obviously better" choice is actually the worst possible choice. Almost any well-intended action has unintended consequences.
 
I believe that the lead in the water is from all the bullets flying around that town. Shootings by the dozen every day. That lead has got to go somewhere.
 
> As I understand it, Flint used to get its water through Detroit which got its water from either Lake St. Claire or Lake Erie, I'm not sure which. Chicago does similar where it gets its water from Lake Michigan, and then surrounding suburbs get their water from Lake Michigan through Chicago at a charge from Chicago. But as I understand it, to save costs, Flint took it upon themselves and changed water sources from Detroit to some obviously polluted river in or around Flint, and now the rest is...news. The thing that I don't understand is that with every report that I've heard so far, it was Flint that took it upon themselves to change their water source, did so, but somehow it's now the state governor's fault.

The Detroit Water Department (now superseded, post-Detroit bankruptcy, by the Great Lakes Water Authority) gets its water from Lake Huron.

The Flint River is not "obviously polluted". But its water is highly corrosive.

The decision to switch was made by Flint's state-appointed emergency financial manager, not by the Flint mayor or city council who have no authority to speak of.

Not only did Gov. Snyder appoint Flint's financial manager, but the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (which reports to Snyder) failed to do its job and ensure that Flint residents had safe drinking water.
 

I was listening to a program about this on the radio today. I had been following this issue however, one thing I was not aware of is that the original water from Detroit had an inhibitor added. Supposely this is required by law (EPA...?) to keep any lead from leaching. When the water supply was switched to the Flint river the decision was made dis-continue the addition of inhibitor - this would have cost another $100 per day. It was not completely clear to me however, it seems that if the inhibitor was added there would not have been a lead issue.

In addition there was an employee at the EPA that attempted to blow the whistle that the inhibitor was not being added per requirements. Higher ups at the EPA silenced this employee.
 
Seems like the Mayor of Flint would be more responsible than the govenor. So I Googled Flint's mayor.

The google answer gave me the answer I was expecting.

Gene
 
wijim, Makes no sense to me neither. If its from lead pipes, which the pipe they show has rust on it, iron, it has always been there. I've never seen lead rust have you? If the water supply turns iron into lead, they may need a wizard convert the lead into gold. geo
 
From what I've read (always questionable), they knew the flint river water was very polluted. So they solved "the problem" by adding much more chlorine than normal for city water. Well, my chemistry background tells me that chlorine bubbled through water makes hydrochloric acid. Some of you have used hydrochloric acid for cleaning mortar stains off brick, and maybe cleaning the rust off steel. It is commonly used in industry. So it acted in a predictable manner cleaning the "permanent" corrosion off the pipes and the lead joints. Some city water pipes are actually made of lead, and prior to WW2 lead pipes were commonly used to carry city water from the street mains to the inside of the house basement. Soon there would be enough iron and calcium deposits on the inside of the water pipes to shield the water from the lead. And they did not use chlorine or fluorine in municipal water systems until later. BTW, fluorine bubbled through water makes fluoric acid which is what is used to etch glass. So the political appointees did not know their basic chemistry and thus there is a huge human health problem. Lead damage to the developing brain and nervous system can be life long permanent damage in children and especially babies. Less affect on adults.

Paul in MN
 
Yeah no kidding. I saw on the news that a small uhaul box type truck that volunteers were using to deliver water had all of its tires slashed. Nice, can't even appreciate volunteers giving them free water!

Ross
 
The pH was off in the water supply, it leached the acid out of the solder, iron pipes had nothing to do with it.
 
I don't understand how water can dissolve lead to begin with. Lead is used in batteries with acid & last a long time.
 
(quoted from post at 22:13:45 01/20/16) wijim, Makes no sense to me neither. If its from lead pipes, which the pipe they show has rust on it, iron, it has always been there. I've never seen lead rust have you? If the water supply turns iron into lead, they may need a wizard convert the lead into gold. geo
Click to expand...

I'm curious to know if you think the pipe they showed on TV was reported to be a pipe in the infrastructure ...or... Do you think that the guy holding the video camera is paid to film things and not a plumber? Do you know how many times I have caught technicalities on TV? An example would be when they talk about a bulldozer and they show you a film clip of a wheel loader, or an excavator.

...or when they talk about a tractor and show a combine or a skidsteer?

You can't take that stuff literally. Honestly.
 
it appears its the chloride level that's elevated in the river water eating the pipes and lead joints. the question is what elevated the chloride level, man or nature? Bill
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a212120.jpg
 
You have to laugh about it. They always take any problem and blow it all out of proportion. I wonder just how many people all over the country live in a old house that has lead soldiered pipes and don't think a thing about their water.
 
funny you should bring this up today, I bought a pole saw at H.F. last night, came home switched on PBS and was watching a show about this while I was struggling to get the saw out of the box. I actually read the directions -- on the last page in very very small print it said -- caution the electrical cord on this saw contains lead and can cause lead poisoning. Wash your hands well after use. The cord is maybe all of 1 foot long. Many years ago I hauled leaded gas to the farmers, millions of gallons of it, got it all over me many times. have been tested for lead and none has been found in my system. I know I did not drink it but I would have thought as many times as I have had it all over me, it would show up somewhere. guess I got lucky.
 
Yes, Flint has an African American mayor, if you are attempting to infer something in that statement. However the mayor position is merely symbolic, since Gov. Snyder took over the city government when he appointed his own personal manager. This new manager has all the power , with others merely figureheads. Snyder has done this with a number of other cities, including Detroit. The siting mayor just recently took office, 1 1/2 years AFTER the switch was made to river water.
 
FYI: A lot of old water systems still have cast iron piping held together by lead joints. Flint used to get their water from the City of Detroit. They started treating their own water from the Flint River a few years ago to save money. To start with, I'm pretty sure the raw water Flint gets from the River isn't near as clean as the water Detroit was getting from Lake Huron. Also, there is probably something different Flint is doing in their treatment process than Detroit that is making the water more aggressive to lead. Add to that, a lot of old houses have lead service lines and lead solder in their plumbing, and there are ample sources for lead in the water.
 
I'm not so sure this one has been blown out of proportion so much as covered up as long as possible.
 
(quoted from post at 00:25:39 01/21/16) They worry about lead and I wonder how many of us besides me used to cast and play with lead soldiers when we were young.
Click to expand...
Yup, I built Soap Box Derby cars in my early teens and my dad brought home lead ingots from work that I'd melt into weights to be added for ballast. Spent a lot of time handling it, smelling the fumes, etc.

BTW, someone said 8,000 kids poisoned. Latest numbers I've heard were that 43 out of 2,000 tests showed elevated lead levels. I.e. not EVERY person is poisoned.

Also, my daughter recently bought a house in Evanston, IL and the inspection report state "lead pipe" for water supply. I asked the inspector and he said "yup" thousands of home in Chicago area have solid [b:075f5105ae]lead [/b:075f5105ae]piping as their supply line from the [b:075f5105ae]lead [/b:075f5105ae]mains. It's the mineral coating that makes them safe, but he did say repair work can cause problems. But you don't see this making national news.

Yup, I'd say it's a problem but blown out of proportion for political gain. I had to laugh when Jesse Jackson came to Flint last week and called it a crime scene. I wondered why no media asked him about the potential for lead poisoning from the water in his hometown of Chicago? Oh, I guess that would be politically incorrect. :lol:

The "activists" and media zoomed in on Gov. Snyder who a) did not make the decision to leave out the inhibitor, b) is committed to fixing the problem. But that doesn't matter to them. They are looking for his head on a platter. Typical.
 
Usually though what they say is a safe level of lead in reality is different than what is really a safe level. It's like asbestos, I grew up in a house that the furnace ductwork was wrapped with asbestos paper and the siding on the exterior of the house was made of asbestos and none of the family had any ill effects from it. They take a situation where folks working in asbestos plants having occupational over exposure getting sick and turn it into nobody should have any exposure at all. I know of a town where they went into a school and removed all the asbestos insulation and set it outdoors to be disposed of. During the night folks of the town carried it all away to use in their own houses. Then they checked the asbestos levels in the school to find out the concentration of asbestos was higher after they removed it. They would have been better off not disturbing it.
 
(quoted from post at 18:46:17 01/20/16)

......Note that the original plan to switch Flint's water to the Flint River seemed like a "no-brainer". It saved the city a million bucks a month! And it was only supposed to be temporary until Flint could tie into a new regional water district in a year or two. Moral of the story: Sometimes the "obviously better" choice is actually the worst possible choice. Almost any well-intended action has unintended consequences.
Click to expand...

You answered one question I had as to the cost of Flint's water. Million a month for Detroit to pump water from a lake and supply it to Flint sounds like a rip-off. With a State manager in place could not they have gone to Detroit and gotten a better deal? Does water really cost that much?
 
Not only lead,but how many of you remember the teacher pouring mercury in your hand so you could roll it around and pass it on to the person sitting next to you?
 
I believe I read in the UA play book it's always the fault if nnalert. Gov Snyder released all emails regarding the Flint water problems. There is no cover up. Now if you want to discuss email cover ups let's discuss da b****h. But being a dem, no problem.
 
The blame for this is not as simple as nnalert or nnalert. With GM and smaller companies bailing out so went a large percentage of the taxpayers, leaving Detroit and area with too little tax base and too many obligations. Saving money became imperative and this is one result. Snyder appointed a manager that had power to do whatever he needed. It may not be Snyders fault directly but he is in the spotlight. Apparently the EPA screwed up somewhere, and clean water should be their priority, but at every turn the EPA makes there is a staunch nnalert blocking the road, and there could have been coercion or even a bribe here. I hope they find out those details.
 
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