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Sounds like power compaines don't like solar energy.

It's pretty sad that some of the states that have so much sun are so against solar energy, (AZ,NV). I understand that they have to provide the infrastructure and provide power 24 hours a day, but solar offsets the peak load on hot sunny days when AC is maxing out the system. The problem is solar does not work as well with coal generation as hydro. We toured the Bonneville hydro plant last year and they say they can bring a generator up to full load in 5 minutes. Unfortunately Hoover dam does not have enough water to generate much power anymore!
 
Did you read the article? Solar power has been the subject of tax credits to make an unprofitable system workable. The article clearly states the utility does not want to pay retail for extra power produced. Why should they, they still have to have generating capacity in place to provide power for as much as consumers want as soon as they get home and the sun goes down. The largest and most efficient steam generating plants have to be hot and spinning (called spinning reserve) in order to respond to momentary increases in demand.

During bright sunny days when few people are home the utility must buy the extra power when they don't need it. They still have to have capacity ready as soon as the sun goes down. It is very reasonable for them to only pay retail price for extra energy they buy, retail price includes the cost of equipment and fuel. It would even be more reasonable for them to pay only the cost of fuel they save by cutting back due to solar. I'm sure the wholesale cost, the price they would pay another utility, is more than their basic fuel cost.
 
It's just a shame how we "smarter than the rest of the world Americans" are all the time trying to use technology before we have the wisdom to use it right. Instead of using solar to make electricity that we can't store,every house in the country should have solar panels to heat water that we can store,both for domestic hot water and to heat our homes. With the help of a small boiler,either gas or wood gasification,we could be practically energy free as far as our homes are concerned. But,instead of doing the obvious,we have to come up with the most complicated Rube Goldberg way of doing things of any society on the planet.
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Nibe
 
Solar companies will come out with a battery system, that will allow you to live nearly 100% off the grid. Be here before you know it.
 
I'm 60 years old. I very seriously doubt that I'll see it in my lifetime. It might have been here by now if the government hadn't stuck their noses in and created the rural electric system. Private companies were making great strides in wind energy before the REA. We would have either had batteries to store that kind of power by now,or appliances and equipment that would have run on the kind of power that could have been stored. But just like now,when the only reason we have for mega solar electric generation,is the whole global warming myth and the need to feel good about doing something about it,the government had to get involved and set private industry back to the stone age.
 
It is no different than a farmer going over to his neighbor and buying corn from him at $4.58/bu and then transporting it to the mill and getting paid $4.58/bu. Would you do that???
Of course not!!! Why should a utility company be expecter to have to comply with a business senario like that.
Loren
 
How can a power company pay for electricity at the same rate they sell it for? Since when is infrastructure free? Same BS plan exists in MN, thanks to our Legislature.
 
Here in Michigan,you can volunteer to pay more on your electric bill for alternative energy if your goal is to feel all warm and fuzzy inside and feel like you're doing something to save the planet.
 
How could anyone in their right mind think this plan was going to work in the long haul anyway.

Let's see....... You are going to start a business.
The government pays for 80% of your start up cost.
Once your start up cost are paid the product you produce is free to you.
The government forces another company to buy and market your product for free.
And the government forces this other company to pay you retail price for your product.

I'm sure I could find 1 or 2 business men that would take a deal like that.
 

Local company has to give credits for excess solar energy when hooked up to the grid. A friend spent around $30,000 for his setup and gets a credit at the end of the year. Problem is the power went out in Nov for a week and he had now power.....no provisions for storage...I laughed.
 
Any "net metering" system is still hooked to the grid.
If the local transmission lines get shut off, you would
still need a generator to supplant the difference in the
electrical usage and what any alternative energy sources
could supply. "Storage" is a bad idea. Initial cost,
upkeep cost, storage volume required, and installation
complexity make this a losing proposition. If your
power went out, would your friend laugh at you?
 
Our REA offered the same several years ago. Now they sold enough shares in a solar unit to go ahead and build it, next to one of their substations.
 
(quoted from post at 20:53:10 01/08/16) Any "net metering" system is still hooked to the grid.
If the local transmission lines get shut off, you would
still need a generator to supplant the difference in the
electrical usage and what any alternative energy sources
could supply. "Storage" is a bad idea. Initial cost,
upkeep cost, storage volume required, and installation
complexity make this a losing proposition. If your
power went out, would your friend laugh at you?
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My point exactly....spend that kind of $$$$ and it doesn't save you from a power outage. I have a generator...I guess he found out he needed one also.
 
I think you are wrong, energy demands are much higher during the day when AC and industry are running, and that is when the sun is
shining and the wind is blowing. I worked in a large industry and we could buy power for 1/3 the cost at night usually. We had
electric motors totaling 70,000 hp in one room and they usually only ran at night.
 
(quoted from post at 20:57:21 01/08/16)
(quoted from post at 20:53:10 01/08/16) Any "net metering" system is still hooked to the grid.
If the local transmission lines get shut off, you would
still need a generator to supplant the difference in the
electrical usage and what any alternative energy sources
could supply. "Storage" is a bad idea. Initial cost,
upkeep cost, storage volume required, and installation
complexity make this a losing proposition. If your
power went out, would your friend laugh at you?
Click to expand...

My point exactly....spend that kind of $$$$ and it doesn't save you from a power outage. I have a generator...I guess he found out he needed one also.
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To add insult to injury he drives a Nissan Leaf.....so he lost his transportation too.
 
There in Michigan, you pump water out of Lake Michigan up to a reservoir in the night,
and let it run down hill through a hydroelectric system in the day. I bet that is a
warm and fuzzy feeling too. I have been told that electricity costs more in the day, and
less at night, so pumping at night, and producing in the day makes sense. I guess we need
to look at the long term for electrical production, and not worry about fuzzy feelings.
Government subsidies (our money) need to be scaled back, and the rest spent wisely.
I think much of our money is spent for bueracracy, but we do need "real" cost saving
energy supplies. Unfortunately, the population of the earth is growing, and we need
to find "alternative" energies that make "cents". My personal opinion is that we need
more nuclear facilities, but that opens another can of objections.

Rocker
 
Wow - if his power is going off that much, I would think he would
want a generator that was a very reliable back up for his incoming
power. The solar generation still would be relevant on it's own merits,
assuming the power (back feed path) wasn't cut off too often. If you
are trying to "generate" power, and the power company is "offline",
there is no place for the current to flow. That would negate the
benefits received from net metering.
 
I looked into Solar a couple of years ago. Based on our usage and what we pay for electricity the break even point exceeded 10 years...and that's not considering another penny spent on maintenance or broken stuff. The solar panels themselves were the cheap part.... about a dollar a watt IIRC.

The batteries were the expensive part and also determine how long you can go without sunshine. Every winter in this part of Texas we get spells lasting a week or better where the sun isn't seen at all. That means generator time and more $$$.

The batteries I looked at were by Rolls-Surette and "should" last around 10 years with good maintenance and no more than 50% d.o.d. Maybe they would last longer and maybe not. Buying 8-10 grand worth of batteries every 10 years is not good for the bottom line. Oh, and these are flooded lead-acid batteries and what happens if the EPA decides to go all nutso over lead in batteries? I guess more "enviromental fees" and other government BS and still more $$$.

We also get good hail storms once in a while and even if your insurance covers replacement think how long it will be to get them replaced.
 
(quoted from post at 17:23:26 01/08/16) Solar companies will come out with a battery system, that will allow you to live nearly 100% off the grid. Be here before you know it.
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Yea that's what they said in the 70's.

Rick
 
When you purchase electricity, you pay for two things, generating the electricity AND the power lines and transformers, as well the losses, to deliver the electricity to you. What solar advocates want is to be paid both components for just generating the electricity. They are whining because they are not getting a freebe.
 
One of the most useful applications for solar I always thought would be running air conditioning. (I live in the south so maybe it is something I think about more.)But during the summer, the solar panels generate the most electricity during the middle of the day, when the AC is running the most.

NET metering is a rip off for the average consumer though and should be done away with.
 
(quoted from post at 09:33:15 01/09/16) One of the most useful applications for solar I always thought would be running air conditioning. (I live in the south so maybe it is something I think about more.)But during the summer, the solar panels generate the most electricity during the middle of the day, when the AC is running the most.

NET metering is a rip off for the average consumer though and should be done away with.
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olar powered A/C is a happy thought, but how many square feet of panel would I need to power my 60kW of A/C? Estimate that I don't have enough roof area..
 
I worked at a large generation plant for years. Around 630 or so electicity demand would start increasing due to people getting up, turning there lights appliances on etc. During the morning when business start opening it would increase a lot. Weather also does make a big difference It would level by around 10 am. Fluctuate some during the day. Around 5 or so it would increase some more. People getting home and turning more things on. Usually around 9 or so it would start falling back. After 11pm it would be at its lowest. Power companies are allowed to charge more when the power consumption is hi. Biggest problem with the generation industry is they have to have enough electricity for peak times. You can not store electricity on a massive scale. If you could make a battery to supply new York it probably would have to be as big as new York. If you can come up with a 4 small batterys that would support you house electricity without a charger then youll have more money than Donald nnalert. Solar and wind power are good ways of electricity. If your in Arizona where sun shines a lot then solar power would be good. If your in texas where wind blows a lot them wind power would be great. I don't think power companies are against other alternatives for electricity. Building power plants is very expensive. If the demand on peak days get to hi then someone will build another plant. Our leaders don't understand that any power plant comes with a negative side. Ask a senator how many kwh did he use last month. He will probably think that's kwh is a Russian thing. I do know I sure like my electricity.
 
Randy,I hope what you said was tongue in cheek about Rural Electric Coops..We are both too young for then,but if most rural areas would have had to depend oh Private owned companies we would still be using Coal Oil Lamps and candles.They flat REFUSED to serve farms or any other rural needs,thus the need for REA.That was a YERY-VERY sore subject then and even now to our parents generation.Even today,the privates DON"T give the rural people as good dependable service as Rural Electrics.Lastly is that your house and system,if not WHY not,that equipment is out there to buy and use.
PS I still have a DELCO@ PLANT IN THE BASEMENT.
 
Well said, Pinball.

I currently (no pun intended) work at a large, base load generating plant. We still see the usage pattern you described fairly accurately.

The utility that owns our plant was closing so many coal plants this past Fall that I cannot keep track- I think it was six locations, maybe only five. At least one plant just started to produce steam from burning gas after converting from coal. The government regulations being forced on coal plants made them economically unfeasible to operate or upgrade to meet new limits on emissions. Lots of long-time employees out of jobs or moving.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised by, the problems they are facing with building the Vogtle Nuclear units #3 and #4 down in Georgia. I had hoped by now we could have worked out the budgets and timelines to get closer to reality, but I guess not.
 
I realize what REA did,and don't deny it was a good thing. What I'm saying is,they stifled ingenuity. Wind powered generators were becoming more and more common on farms and so were batteries to store that electricity. I guess all we can do is dream about how far that technology would have come if the government hadn't stepped in. But now here we are 80 years later with the government spending money to try to develop what might have existed by now,completely done by the private sector.

No,that's not my basement. It belongs to my brother in law in Sweden. You can walk in to any home improvement store over there and buy any and all of that equipment that's on the site I linked to. He's offered to run it through his business and ship everything to me so we can get away without paying the 25% tax on it. He says it would run about $15,000 for the equipment. If I was a younger man building a new house,I'd install it in a heartbeat. In fact,my son is pricing things for a new house now,and if he builds,he wants to install that system in it. He's been to Sweden and stayed in that house and has seen it work first hand. It's just stupid that we don't have easy access to that equipment and that it isn't being installed in very new home that's built in this country. That house in the picture is in the same latitude as Fairbanks Alaska. Thoger lights the gasification boiler a few days a week starting in late October,then burns it steady November through March. By the first of April,the sun is high enough to heat totally with solar again. That's the kind of innovation you get when the government doesn't get involved.

If you tried to put that system in to mass use here,there are people on the radio with an army of foot soldiers who would fight it tooth and nail to the death to defend oil company profits. It's sad,but you know as well as I do that it's true. There would be a huge backlash against it from the left as well if the bulk of the boilers were wood gasification boilers. "YOU CAN'T DO THAT,YOU'RE DESTROYING THE PLANET!".
 
We have two,tax payer funded solar panel factories standing empty,nine miles from my house. They got one of them up and running,very briefly,manufacturing panels. I can't speak for all,and I don't know what the dimensions of those panes was,but they said it would take two of those panels to light a 60 watt bulb. One panel sold for $400. So $800 to light a 60 watt bulb when the sun was shining so you didn't need the light.

On that general subject,does anybody know the fate of that battery plant in Holland Michigan that the exalted leader built to make batteries for the Chevy Volt? Last I heard,they never did produce a single battery and the two hundred people that the government had hired to work there were doing community service jobs,like picking up trash in city parks.
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. You mean there's politics that got involved in the decisions affecting how things turned out for our entire country and thusly, part of the whole world? And people with stakes in the results used their influence to make the decisions? WOW. Who knew?
 
(quoted from post at 07:32:40 01/09/16) How would this work in the winter? Wouldn't the pipes freeze and break?
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Typically a system would use an anti-freeze solution in the solar panel loop - see "sun in" "sun out" loop in the diagram. There are also drain back systems that can use water. The water is drained from the outside panels and plumbing in cold temperatures and no sun. The panels will provide hot water in cold weather as long as there is sun.
 
We have to do something. Our power grid in the US was a 40-50 yr deal. We are way past that point. Point is wait till we have to fund that..... A guy might want solar and a back up generator??
 
Correct. It's a closed system containing an anti freeze solution that runs through coils in one of the tanks. There's a second set of coils,seven meters long,that runs cold water in,hot water out the other end of it for the domestic hot water. The actual water in the tanks circulates through the boiler and the heating system in the house. There's a valve down toward the lower left of the schematic that Thoger says is kind of key to the whole thing. I guess it either sends the water through the boiler or through the radiators and in floor heating if the boiler isn't burning.
 

The average home owner can not handle the cost and complexity of such a system.
I priced out water heating with solar. It's more practical to generate DC with solar and warm a pre-heater tank of water prior to a regular water heater. No pumps to break down or liquids to leak or freeze.
 
Solar would be acceptable if it did not require any subsidy and the cost was in line with coal/natural gas/nuclear.

As it stand today, solar on any large scale is simply stupid, and so are the people who support it.
 

Still need fossil to backup solar on overcast , snow covered days and during short winter days . In addition to carrying the peak load from 3:00PM when solar starts to fail until late evening.
Who pays for that fossil plant to sit on spinning reserve while solar is producing?
 

A pumped water storage system to carry the US and Canada over night would require pumping the entire Great Lakes system uphill into a.
Reservour every day and having all that water flow back into the existing Great Lakes at night .
I don't see the practicality of that system.
 

The "solar and wind" homes are super insulated to make solar and wind somewhat practical . High energy demand devices are still fossil gas stove, water heat, furnace and clothes dryer.
May as well just build a super insulated home and use only a wee bit of power from the utility instead of trying to generate power
 

Green energy requires investing in two instead of one power supply system. It would
Be like having to purchase two different 200HMP tractors instead of one 200HP tractor to pull the cultivator . Is that going to cost $$$ ?
 
That house in the picture I posted is over 100 years old. It's the rule,not the exception in Sweden. The first time that Thoger came over here to hunt,he was speechless that nobody here had that system or had ever even heard of it.
 
First I would like to say that there is no such thing as a "grid." Grid implies that there would be some sort of central generation and organized distribution system. What we have is a loose association of small, medium, and large power companies that each have their own systems of overhead as well as underground distribution systems. As such, if whatever portion of the so-called "grid" were to fail, there would be no great calamity. At worst, a large metropolitan area would lose their power. The rest of the country would continue on with business as usual.

Next, I would like to say that ALL power is solar. It is stored as coal, oil, natural gas, wood, hydro, or whatever else grew and became fuel BECAUSE OF THE SUN!!! So called solar power is simply trying to bypass the natural process and convert directly from sun to electric. So far, this has met with very limited success. Equipment is expensive and requires maintenance. Wind also has its drawbacks. After all, those wind turbines need to be somehow secured in high winds, and generate nothing when the wind dies down.

These "feel good" ideas have their place strictly as backup or supplemental systems. Period. Would technology have been developed to make this mainstream if there were no other choice?? Maybe, maybe not.

More importantly, look into the motives of those doing the protesting. There are a few continual complainers with an agenda followed by paid activists. The paid activists don't care if you build the dam, the bridge, the development or whatever. They are there for a paycheck. Pure and simple. Just like meat - the beef people carry on against chicken. The pork people want to call their product white meat. The chicken people are telling us that red meat is bad for us. It just all comes down to a question of whose ox is gored.
 
Most people know very little about the electric grid. With the exception of texas they are all tied together. There has to be enough power to generate during peak hours. Now if everyone would turn all there lights, any anything that takes electricity and leave them on the power companies could build according. You cannot store electricity in a large amount. If you tell some one that light bulb your looking at is actually blinking they probably would have you committed. France is the only country that has 100 percent nuclear power. external_link if you remember had a big thing 3/4 years ago about wind power. Our senator had a brother who from what I hear made millions from the government on this program. Can it be a help to people in certain parts of the us. Yes it can but not from the government. It will cost all of us a lot of money just to help a select few. Personally I would vote for an all nuclear power. All power comes with its pros and cons. I do think with nuclear you can keep costs at a consistent price for consumers. I think that all we want. I certainly don't mean to shut down coal fired plants. At some time or another coal fired plants becomes obsolete, too costly to run so they can be phased out over the long run. Pollution control is a big thing with coal fired plants. It has definelty improved over the years. Power companies there selves has put money into that problem. If you take a ford car to a chevy mechanic your probably asking for trouble. If you ask a president or senator what would do and they don't even when they don't know where electricity comes from your probably asking for trouble. So if the government wants to help the electrical industry get all the CEOs of the companies together and ask for there help. I know they are willing to help. PS--don't ask that ceo who has contributed to your campaign. He will just tell you what you want to hear. Election year is coming. Please get out and vote. The hard core nnalert will vote for the nnalert. Same as the hard core nnalert. Don't care what you tell those people. They have what is called tunnel vision. So its up to people like us to determine who the best candidate is. Sure hope we pick the right people. I worked in a power plant in operations for 33 years. I fully understand when people don't understand how the power grid works. Megawatts, brown outs, black outs most people wont kmow what those terms are. My daughter complained awhile back about her bill. I asked her how many kwh did she use. She said whats that, I told here that's the meteer on your house that is used to see ha much electricity you used. More kwh higher your bill. She said then if I keep some things turned off will my bill go down. I told here that your kwh will go down. Unless they raies your rates then it will go down. Good place to ask a question. Good topic. norm
 
Agreed. And think of all the resources wasted creating power sources instead of one that is reliable. Any time you are wasting dollars you are wasting resources.



Is the like the "Cash for clunkers" thing a few years ago. For all the talk about getting old inefficient cars off the road think of how many resources were wasted when reliable running cars were pulled off the road and new ones built in their stead. The easiest way to measure resources is in dollars. Without the taxpayer money would anyone have walked out and destroyed their car before buying a new one?
 
For supplemental heating, I liked the system that used hot air from an air based solar panel used to heat a basement room full of large rocks. Get the rocks hot during the day and use that heat to warm the house overnight. Don't know how many of those were ever installed.

Another idea for the north was put in a pond with a coil in it. Let it freeze over winter, insulate the top for the summer, and pump fluid through the coil to provide supplemental cooling from the ice over the summer.

My house I use a ground source heat pump.
 
Back in the 70s there was a guy here manufacturing panels that just heated air. They mounted on the south side of houses and just had a fan and a duct that blew hot air in to the house. You still see a few around. Our milk man had one. He said it did a pretty good job on sunny days. I think that one is still hanging on the south side of that house.
 
How far into the future do you see? What expense is too much to assure that your children's children's children have a reasonable life. I ask because the responsibility to fix what we break should not be pawned off on our future generations. Jim
 
In case you don't know all power generation stations are hooked together through transmission lines, transformers and breakers. From Maine to California. As far as I know texas is not and Alaska has a whole bunch of batteries for a short term back up for certain cities. This is known as the power grid. It is designed to help each power company to provide electricity to there customers to help other companies has to shut one of there units off. If a generation station shuts down in iowa then power would come from some where else like maybe Missouri or Illinois. There is not a central location its just everywhere. Its a complex system known as a power grid and is quite effective.
 
First I would like to say that there is no such thing as a "grid."
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I think the grid is far more organized and sophisticated than you project. For the most part, because of the value of the power that until really recently was in short supply in areas of the country. And recently, grid security has become incredibly more stringent.

As such, if whatever portion of the so-called "grid" were to fail, there would be no great calamity. At worst, a large metropolitan area would lose their power. The rest of the country would continue on with business as usual.
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See "Northeast Blackout of 2003" . Could have easily extended West across the USA.

Next, I would like to say that ALL power is solar. It is stored as coal, oil, natural gas, wood, hydro, or whatever else grew and became fuel BECAUSE OF THE SUN!!!
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Where does nuclear fit?
 
The alternative heat source I would be interested in is the geo-thermal deep well sources. I think it is Greenland or Iceland that uses it. Drill really deep into the earth to tap the heat for steam. Not sure what geological conditions we'd need- thin layer down to the heat, or why there seems to be no talk of it here. Would seem like an ice auger is all you would need in Hawaii to reach magma...
 
I think Iceland sits on a cauldron similar to Yellowstone. Steam and hot water are as easy to get as drilling a well. And not a deep well either.
 
The power grid is very sophisticated and well protected. When one power plant suddenly quits other electricity plants has to make that up and does so very well. Depending on where it is , the size of the unit, load demand at that time it may not be able to therefore it trys to drag the system down. Safe guards are in place to stop that. Kind like your breaker in your house when you overload it it opens to protect your house and the power line coming into your house. Operators in these power houses are trained to watch voltages, amps on there system to and if the right condition arises are suppose to disconnect there selves from the grid. There are documented cases where alert operators have seen this and by doing that saved several hours of down time on the system as they were able to supply electricity to start up units that had tripped and also stopped the problem from going on any further. We were without electricity 2/3 years ago for 5 days in cold weather. One of the relays didn't function properly. Burnt out a large transformer. There not ready available and take quiet some time to change out. So yes it is a very delicate complicated system but I do think the power companies do have a good hold on it. We can do without a lot of things but boy we like our electricity.
 

The hot water or steam from geothermal energy tends to be loaded with salts and minerals leached from the hot rocks. Throughly plates over and plugs heat exchanger surfaces .
 
Just watched a PBS special on energy. The problem basically is that the politicians are deciding what energy to use. I shake my head over the natural gas fiasco that was pushed by the government. Natural gas is not the clean burning fuel that they want you to believe.

We converted a lot of government vehicle to CNG. It turned out that it is true that you can't see or smell natural gas fumes - but we couldn't get any of the engines to pass the standard emissions test for regular gasoline engines! So the CNG engines are actually polluting more than the gasoline engines.

The governor had his government Town Car converted to CNG, with a lot of hoopla fed to the press. They drove it about a month on CNG and experienced all the problems that I'd warned them about and quit fueling at the ADOT CNG pumping station and went back to using regular gas - they just didn't tell the public about it!
 
My BIL uses a Geo heat pump to heat the water in swimming pool in Florida. He uses lake water as
heat source. Green slime from lake coats his heat exchanger which he has to flush out with an
acid. Seems All good ideas have something wrong with them.
 
(quoted from post at 12:12:09 01/09/16) I realize what REA did,and don't deny it was a good thing. What I'm saying is,they stifled ingenuity. Wind powered generators were becoming more and more common on farms and so were batteries to store that electricity. I guess all we can do is dream about how far that technology would have come if the government hadn't stepped in. But now here we are 80 years later with the government spending money to try to develop what might have existed by now,completely done by the private sector.
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Excellent point. The REA did do a good job, but people have forgotten that there were all sorts of home power units and small municipal and private companies just getting started at the time FDR decided the gov't should compete with private individuals and companies. There are a number of fundamental problems with that paradigm that have only grown more and more. We just don't know what could have been if things had been different.
 
Bret,You and Randy are both about the same age I believe.(TOO YOUNG to have lived thru it)Yes WIN-POWER and WINCO were both generator companies back then(where their names came from wind power).Delco and a couple others made home power units.(GAS POWERED).These Private electric companies ONLY SERVED A FEW CLOSE groups of homes and said TO THE Hxxx with you because of not enough people per mile.The farm I was born on and 4-5 other farms plus a little crossroad burg(10-15 houses)were a mile or so from company line and flat out WOULD NOT UNDER ANY CONDITION run lines to them even when Dad and others offered to help with cost.WHEN REA was started they had power within 6 Months and within 5-10yrs had to buy the private company out in that area to get service to a more people that the first would not hook up.Sorry for the long post,but that is still a very sore subject(with older people) in this area and also in my wifes area.Same thing is happening today with NG company not letting anyone new hook up even tho the line goes across their yard or property.
 
(quoted from post at 18:01:49 01/10/16) Bret,You and Randy are both about the same age I believe.(TOO YOUNG to have lived thru it)Yes WIN-POWER and WINCO were both generator companies back then(where their names came from wind power).Delco and a couple others made home power units.(GAS POWERED).These Private electric companies ONLY SERVED A FEW CLOSE groups of homes and said TO THE Hxxx with you because of not enough people per mile.The farm I was born on and 4-5 other farms plus a little crossroad burg(10-15 houses)were a mile or so from company line and flat out WOULD NOT UNDER ANY CONDITION run lines to them even when Dad and others offered to help with cost.WHEN REA was started they had power within 6 Months and within 5-10yrs had to buy the private company out in that area to get service to a more people that the first would not hook up.Sorry for the long post,but that is still a very sore subject(with older people) in this area and also in my wifes area.Same thing is happening today with NG company not letting anyone new hook up even tho the line goes across their yard or property.
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You're missing what we're saying. It's not that there weren't problems with little, low dollar companies. There were and no one denies that. What we're saying is that when gov't got into the private enterprise game it sucked the life out of innovation, invention and ideas in the small energy area. It also killed off most of those businesses. It wasn't all good is the point. Private enterprise cannot complete with tax payer dollars, simple as that. Yes, REA came through with millions of public dollars and did what those little companies couldn't. But at what cost? A small company is going to look at a problem and find the least expensive, most effective for the dollar way to solve it. Gov't throws money at it.

Any time someone brings up some case of gov't competing with private enterprise I think back to when I was growing up. There were 7 private ski areas in my area. Then the State decided it should be in the ski business. Now there are 2 ski areas, and one (not the state area) could fold at any day. How is that better?
 

The operator's just observe the computer control of the grid. Humans can not react fast enough to halt a cascade fault .
 
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