Converting to Natural gas

37chief · Dec 14, 2015

Since the gas company put a gas line down the street on the property my shop, and old house are located. My daughter lives in the house. I would like to take it off propane. All the plumbing under the house is 1/2, which was fine for propane. Will the 1/2 in line still supply enough natural gas for the house? The water heater is electric. I may replace with gas later. Then there is the cook stove, floor heater, and clothes dryer. What do you think? Stsn

cowdog · Dec 14, 2015

I don't think it will be big enough. If it works it will only be marginal at best with everything on. Lp runs at roughly 2 to2.5 times the appliance pressure as natural gas. I just had natural gas service added to my shop a few months ago. For 2 furnaces totaling 160,000 btu they had me run 1" inside. I used black iron pipe because I have an electric pipe threader. You could use that new "csst" flexible piping. However , code here says it needs to be inside the wall. The black iron pipe I ran I just hung it up high until I made the run outside to meter bar.

Janicholson · Dec 14, 2015

Nat. Gas is sure less polluting, and cheaper than electricity (if generated by coal) and the lines in the house are OK if they are for small appliances. a furnace will likely need 3/4, or 1" pipe to allow enough flow (depends on distance from meter. Nat Gas is much lower in pressure than propane, so volume is very important. Jim

504 · Dec 14, 2015

It burns hotter and cheaper than LP. I am three miles from a line or I would be on it.

Greg K · Dec 14, 2015

I see a lot of natural gas furnaces plumbed with 1/2" CSST. Going off of that I would say it should be enough. They typically bring 3/4 or 1" pipe in to a manifold and 1/2" from there.

ss55 · Dec 14, 2015

My incoming natural gas line is 1 inch. I doubt that 1/2 inch line is large enough to feed a furnace plus three or four appliances, but you should have the lines sized by a professional.

Even if you have to install new gas lines in the house, converting to natural gas should pay within a short time, and increase the resale value of the house.

LAA · Dec 14, 2015

Depends on what will be run off of the natural gas and how many appliances at once, you could cook fine off of a 1/2'' line or run a clothes dryer or a hot water tank, if the oven and the hot water were both at full volume at the same time the downstream appliance would be at low efficiency. Running a furnace off of a 1/2'' line will work many places if you don't need high volume heat. The other major consideration is whether all of the propane burning appliances in the house will convert to natural gas, it is a simple change of the jet in most cases but some things were built non convertible, many hot water heaters are either propane only or natural gas only.

Hoenes · Dec 14, 2015

cowdog, the new codes seem to leave safety behind. If csst is what I think it
is, (I've seen it in big box stores) it looks like flexible plastic. Why
would anyone want a gas line inside a wall that would take a drywall screw or
a nail? Old school dictates that black iron pipe should be used inside a
wall.

the tractor vet · Dec 14, 2015

Well no expert her but in my home the main line in the house is 1 1/4 line then it branches off with a 3/4 to the furnace and a 3/4 to the stove then to 1/2 inch to the to water tank. The line from the street is also 1 1/4 . Just sayen .

tractorguy2 · Dec 14, 2015

Here in Nebraska a lot of people are getting get of there natural gas for propane. The gas company charges $40-50 per month just to be hooked up. I turned mine off in my shop and changed to wood.

cowdog · Dec 14, 2015

csst is corrugated stainless steel tubing. It has a vinyl coating on the outside. I was visiting with the gas company man when he came to hook my meter up after the leak test , he is the one that tild me the csst has to be IN the wall or otherwise protected. Not sure if that would apply to a crawl space. Just like electrical wires, you have to think about what you are doing so something don't end up biting you in the a$!#s later on.

Russ from MN · Dec 14, 2015

If you use a high pressure regulator outside and another low pressure regulator at the appliance, if the piping is up to code. We have smaller copper lines feeding the appliances.

Jerry9N · Dec 14, 2015

No. The gas company will generally run a one inch line to your gas meter. While a half inch line would feed any one of your appliances, it wouldn't supply all of them as once. Natural gas inside the house is at less than a half a psi, you need volume in the pipe to keep up with demand, or you'll start having pilot lights go out, or appliances shut down unexpectedly.
You need to be certified to purchase and install corrugated stainless gas line in walls, if done correctly it is approved, and protected from errant nails. Black pipe is never approved to be buried in a wall, it can pass through a wall, however no black pipe joint can ever be inside any wall.
I'm a journeyman pipefitter, licensed contractor, certified Gas-tite installer and former Vo-tech instructor for HVAC/R programs. Pipe is cheap, natural gas explosions are not.

Jerry

cowdog · Dec 14, 2015

The Nat gas meter takes it to appliance pressure outside. Having a low pressure regulator inside whether lp or ng is asking for trouble. They vent, so the only thing between you and combustible gas is a rubber diaphram.

Bob Harvey · Dec 14, 2015

An interesting aside (I think). Both my adult 'kids' live and work in Northern Alberta (the land of Nat. Gas. and Oil). Their respective houses are 10 - 25 yrs. old and have gas everything EXCEPT the kitchen stoves (electric). Took me a while to finger it out. Elec. stoves are waay cheaper to buy than gas (makes NO sense to me, BUT, when you are doing a subdivision a substantial saving). Both families work in the gas/oil patch related industries and have since converted to gas stoves. An observation.

Andy Martin · Dec 14, 2015

Natural gas does not burn hotter. Propane has about 2-1/2 times the energy per cubic foot than natural gas does. Around 1,050 btu/cu ft for natural gas (methane, ethane, propane mixture) and 2,500 for propane (ethane, propane, butane mixture). So even at the same pressure propane takes less flow to make the same energy.

Also, galvanized pipe is approved for use in LP and natural gas service. When I replaced my propane line to the house 30 years ago I wanted galvanized pipe for corrosion protection, and I doped the joints. I had another engineer at work check out the codes to see if there was any problem with galvanized. Not only was it suitable, it is usually less expensive these days. Many years ago it was cheaper and that is why it was used for gas. I've had lots of arguments over the years as I have installed galvanized gas line several times and it is universally despised. My propane company is on the ball though, they looked it up instead of arguing.

Hoenes · Dec 14, 2015

Jerry, I'm in the STL area, and "562" fitters have told me that black pipe is allowed inside walls as long as the threaded joints are welded around. Is this true?

RedGreenGuy · Dec 14, 2015

Your so right. Told natural gas company to take a hike. Don't need to pay them $50/month for privilage of having their service. And that $50 is a surcharge for not using gas and a $50 surcharge ontop of your bill when you do.

MarkB_MI · Dec 15, 2015

Switched to gas from propane twenty years ago and haven't looked back.

Whether or not you need to put in bigger pipe depends entirely on what you're operating and how far it is from the meter. Fortunately there are charts so you don't need to run the calculations yourself; all you need to know is the Btu/hr required by each appliance and the length of the pipe. Obviously the pipe from the meter needs to big enough to handle the demands of all the appliances running at the same time, and each branch has to handle to flow for that particular appliance.

Typically the pipe from the meter is one inch, and branch piping is 1/2" or 3/4", depending on the size of the appliance and length of the run.
Pipe sizing PDF

rrc300 u · Dec 15, 2015

Code allows no threaded joints in the wall. I used socket weld fittings going up to my second floor. Had to explain to the code inspector what they were but he readily accepted them. He actually said he liked the idea and wondered why people try to cheat instead of using this as an option.
We use em at work on all kinds of things that have waaaay more pressure than a propane line.

I'm a fitter service guy local 449.

coonie minnie · Dec 15, 2015

You won't miss propane. No empty tank, lower cost. Usually a lot lower cost. A therm of natural is 100000 BTU, a gallon of propane only 90-92000. Meter charges in our neighborhood is less than $10 per month.

You won't want propane back- ever.

Geo-TH,In · Dec 15, 2015

When I converted to NG, I had to use 1 1/2 black pipe. I don't think 1/2 inch will work. If the 1/2 is copper, no way it will work. NG will cause copper to turn black inside pipe and then flake off.

DoubleR · Dec 15, 2015

I converted two years ago. I have already got my $4,000.00 hookup fee back. Best thing I've done in a while.

MarkB_MI · Dec 15, 2015

>NG will cause copper to turn black inside pipe and then flake off.

Hmm. I have dryers in three different houses hooked up with copper tubing. One of them has been in place since the house was built in the early eighties. No problems to date.

A little googling indicates that you can get flaking if high levels of mercaptan are in the gas. But mercaptan is added to both propane and natural gas, so why would NG be any worse?

CJinMI · Dec 15, 2015

If you follow code/man inst, they have it
all covered (striker plates for one). Thats why csst manufacturer's
have guide lines/manuals and certification tests.
Also why there are licensed contractors-good and bad.
Also a push to get it off store shelves
(I think Canada already did). No joints of either
kind in walls. Like anything, they both have +/-, and their
place to use.

Russ from MN · Dec 15, 2015

Am I the only one that has a high pressure/ low pressure system? I thought it was fairly common!

Hoenes · Dec 15, 2015

RRC, come to think if it, the " weld type " sockets are no doubt what they were referring to. I never saw any threads, I just assumed, and we've all seen the word "assume" broken down on paper. This particular app was in a commercial restaurant, so it was definitely subject to code inspection. I can't remember what the feed was for, but it had to be in the wall.

bjr · Dec 15, 2015

I have a gas Transmission line a block away from me. Our 150 plus home in the development would like gas and we keep getting shot down. The gas company would have to install a reduction valve they say. I thought that is what they do. Why is this a problem? I have propane but am told I cannot use it in the basement? Sure seems as though No One Knows anything for sure, just a lot of guessing. bjr

Blackhole49 · Dec 15, 2015

I worked for a water dept. for 28 years and we dug around gas services almost every day. Real old services were black pipe. Services from the sixties + were copper. Newer services were all plastic. If copper was no good, I don't think the gas company would have used it. When I worked for a pool company in the sixties, all the underground line for 2-500,000 btu heaters were copper and all required a permit and inspection.

ss55 · Dec 15, 2015

Some new kitchen ranges come with gas cook top burners and an electric oven, the best of both worlds?

Geo-TH,In · Dec 15, 2015

Natural gas with a hydrogen sulfide concentration of 0.3 grams per 100 cubic feet should not be used with copper or brass.

Just because you have used copper in the past and got away with it doesn't mean it's OK. I've seen copper turn black, flake off and choke the gas valve. I changed to SS flex pipe back when I had NG. Now I'm happier with everything total electric.

A half inch line may not carry enough NG. Depending on furnace, water heater and gas dryer size.

I would check with local building inspector before even thinking of using copper. My gas company inspected my black pipe before they connected my meter.

Hobo,NC · Dec 15, 2015

If what you have is acceptable and you needed more you could T off the top of the meter add a regulator outside and feed your furnace etc. separate.

Geo-TH,In · Dec 15, 2015

Another side note. My mother loved her gas range. However in her elderly years with a bad heart, the gas fumes bothered her breathing. We had to install an electric range.

MarkB_MI · Dec 15, 2015

>I have propane but am told I cannot use it in the basement?

Propane is heavier than air, while natural gas is lighter. A natural gas leak in a basement will dissipate; leaking propane will settle near the floor until reaches a combustible level.

Geo-TH,In · Dec 15, 2015

Stan, Congratulations, the green people will love you. Using NG as a heating source produces about 3x less greenhouse gas than burning NG in a power plant to make electricity. I crunched numbers once and I think it may produce the least amount of CO2 and may be the cleanest burning energy source too. Hydrogen may be better, but it's not readily available. Geo.

guido · Dec 15, 2015

Hello 37chief

You won't be sorry. First of all it is cheaper then propane, and beside being more convenient, it will cost much less. My neighbor is laughing all the way to the bank. He switched to natural gas from propane, including the hot water heater. I had to pay the gas company to extend the main for me. Now they put the service in for him free.
What ever it will cost to concert, you will recover in a year or two,

Guido.

Jerry9N · Dec 15, 2015

Welded pipe is permitted, but no one is going to pay a certified weldor for a residential project. I have never seen welded threaded pipe, around here anything two inch and under is threaded, over two inch is welded. Our local gas company is quite conservative, maybe because of all the lawyers around here.

Jerry

Converting to Natural gas

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