OT. Bull Question

I know we have some who have had a lot or experience in handling bulls. I have been around bulls for over sixty years and have never had a bad bull but treated them with the same respect as the other cattle although giving them a bit more room than I gave the cows.

A year ago I bought a two year old registered Angus bull from a fellow who had bought him to breed some heifers. He sold me the bull because he had several other bulls and did not need him. The bull was very gentle. He became playful and the issue is he may still be just wanting to play. I do not like this!

A couple weeks ago I was working some calves and in separating them he wanted to gently push me around with his head. I struck him in the nose with my fist and got out of his way with no incident.

Last night he got out of the pasture by me leaving the gate open. With a garden rake I drove him back into the pasture but he would step sideways and appear more aggressive than I like. I got him back in with no other incident.

My question is will be become aggressive and should I give him a sharp blow in the head with a stick when he wants to be playful or stubborn. I can tolerate him if he does not get any worse but I want to make some change in his behavior.

Your treading on thin ice! I have beef cows at another farm with a quarter horse in the pasture with them, some say you shouldn't have a horse with cows, but that horse will let the bull know who is boss real quick, and when I enter the pasture the horse comes up to me and the bull keeps his distance!

I think it is normal for them to act a little wild if they get out of the pen. I had a very gently angus bull who, only if he got out, would start pawing the ground and rolling in the dirt, etc like he was ready for a fight. Never had any dangerous encounters, but always respected him of course.

Be very careful. The old saying is to "never trust a bull any further than you can throw him" Their disposition varies some by breeds, for example, Herefords tend to be laid back and easier to work them. Angus and Jerseys have a bad reputation although there are exceptions. Years ago, my Dad had an Angus bull that was extremely difficult. Finally sold all of the daughters- they destroyed everything, one of the granddaughters tried real hard to kill me as we were loading her on the good bye trailer. I have found most bulls are fine as yearlings until about two. As they approach three years, get rid of them and get a younger bull. At three they become territorial bosses who will not respect a stick, a shocker or even a pitchfork. Bulls that were pets as youngsters can be the worst. Many have been killed or attacked by bulls, I'm sure folks on this board can tell some horror stories. I still have a big scar on my back where i was tossed into a heavy wood fence by a bull that was sick and weak, but still strong enough to be bad. Good luck finding a new bull- they are pricey, but better to spend the money than be dead!

I think it would be a lot easier to change your behavior around the bull than it will be to change the bulls behavior.
I would never trust a bull or even a cow with a new calf for that matter.
It is more likely that a tame bull will kill you long before a vicious bull will because you gave the tame one the opportunity.

Have a good cattle dog with you anytime you're around a bull. Angus bulls are usually not as aggressive as other breeds. Holsteins are not to be trusted.They'll trample you to death. Over and over. And, never make pets of your cattle. A Wisconsin dairy farmer was killed a few years ago when one of his cows came up behind him and tried to mount him.

Nothing more dangerous than a friendly bull and nothing more destructive than an itchy bull!

Listen to John in La......words to live by--literally.

Ben

I would say all you can do is try your method.I would buy a plastic sorting stick about 4 ft long.They smart a little more then a wooden stick an they don't break.Carry that stick with you at all times.If you hit him with your fist he's WAY to close to you.Most of there habbits are started at a young age and never go away sorry to say.Sounds like if you got him in that easy he can be managed.Be careful and Never trust any bull.

All of you that say an Angus bull is less aggressive then other breeds obviously haven't dealt with many Angus bulls! That being said, they can all be trouble, but so can cows, horses, dogs, or even chickens.
I would ship him before you get hurt. He doesn't respect you now, and it will just get worse. For me, he wouldn't bother, but what about the wife and grandkids?
He isn't worth the risk.

As One British Coroner observed when dealing with cases of farmers or farm workers being killed by a bull , it was always " But old Billy wouldn't hurt anyone, we just don't know hat came over him!" i.e. it was always a 'tame' bull that was normally trustworthy, not the nasty one that everyone kept their distance from.

One of our Shorthorn bulls would act aggressive with everyone else, but I talked REALLY tough to him - he would snort and shake his head, then turn and walk away from me. For some reason he would always back down for me, but not for anyone else.

of all respected comments,, I concur with brn swis ,,. rite now I have a mixed breed bull with a wild eye ,,he gets happy playful when I bring out hay and feed ,, NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON A BULL,and goes without saying never tease a bull ..., family folklore there was a bull that got my great uncle in a corner , he survived with a limp for the rest of his life,, and lived to be 85 , this happened in the 1920s while he was in his 20s

I agree one should never turn one's back to a or trust a bull!!!!!!!

I just sold a 3 yr old Reg black Angus bull for aggressive behavior. When a trailer or strange to him pickup was pulled into pasture this bull would come bawling,slobbering up to the strange vehicle and start pawing the ground & continue bawling. There's too many quite minded bulls out there so he hit the dusty trail.

I would really watch him close. First off hitting a bull in the head with your fist is not the thing to do for several reasons. 1) You not going to do much to him hitting him in the head. 2) Second your too close if you can hit him in the head with your fist. 3) Bulls are made to hit things with their heads so hitting him there really encourages him to hit YOU with his head.

Your garden rake was not much of a weapon to handle him. I mainly use a aluminum ball bat if I am walking around them in the pasture. If I am close to the barns I have a heavy pitch fork. A good poke with the tines usually works better than hit with some thing.

I have had bulls that get excited with your messing with calves. Their is a natural instinct to protect the calves. I now only handle calves with the bull locked up, if possible.

Thank all of you. I shall allow him more distance and carry a stick. He is tame in the pasture. I must add that I have a small herd with 19 cows and allow the bull to run with the cows.

Make sure somebody posts your obituary on the Memorial Forum if you plan to keep fooling with that animal.
He never has been playing,he's been showing his dominance. If you club him with something and challenge that,he'll really prove to you who's bigger. No way in the world I'd go out there on foot with him. On a tractor or at least a 4 wheeler,then hope he doesn't flip that over on you. I had one here that would ram a tractor when I went out in the pasture.

I treat my bulls and boars the same. I try to raise them from young if possible and any time I walk in the pen with them I carry the hot shot. If they get close enough they get it. They learn early to give me a wide berth.

One of my bulls is a pretty good bull right now. I bought him and another at a well known sale. They were great in the ring. Something happened between there and the trailer. When I got him home he sent more people over the fence than I have ever seen. I just kept a gate between me and him. Over time I realized one of the problems was a neighbor that helped out. He would get a wild eye anytime he heard or saw that man. The neighbor went. Over time of being with him (myself and no others) he is a big baby. I DO NOT TRUST HIM, THOUGH. Bulls hit a certain age (especially angus) and they won't turn their back on you. They will side step to keep an eye on you or lower their head and back out of the situation. His behavior is what I have seen them do for years. They don't trust you any more than you should trust them. I have one coming of age now and he has just started the sidestep. He's got stable bloodlines but one of these days he will get a zap on the wet nose so he knows where he stands. Right now he's just a rambunctious oaf.

Even if he turns out to be a nice bull, always give yourself a way out. If he is a mess when you drive in the pasture that is a sign. If he comes toward you when you walk into a large pasture that's also a sign. It's natural for them to be defensive when they think something is going on. Bulls are very suspicious. There is no reason to keep one that picks a fight, though. That kind has offspring that do the same thing. The next thing you know you will have a herd of wild fence jumpers.

Switch to AI. Better genetics and no one gets hurt by a semen straw.

Had almost the same thing happen to me a week ago. Went in the pen to move the young bull to another pen. Have never had any problem with him before. He was on the other side of the pen when I crawled over the fence to open the gate. He let me get halfway to the other gate I was going to open for him when he raised his head and snorted and pawed the ground. Next thing I know here he comes with his head down. I hollered at him and turned around and headed for the fence. The only thing that saved me was about a foot of wet manure and hay that he slipped in and fell down when he went to change his angle of attack. I went over the fence and opened the gate from the other side, got me a board about ten feet long, and came back around and chased him out and down the alley way to the other pen. He would stop every few feet and turn around and look at me. When he turned the corner to go in the other pen I nailed him on the backside with the board a couple of times. Next morning when I went to feed him and the cows I took the magic electric wand with me. Dumped the hay in the feeder and got out to cut the twine. I waited until a cow got between him and me and reached over her back and gave him a couple of volts on his backside. Straightened him up for the time being.

You are asking if an angus bull will get aggressive?????? Around bulls for 60 years and never had one get aggressive????

You, Sir, have led a charmed life. I know of three who have been killed by bulls in my lifetime and two more who came close to getting killed (my father was one of them). It's the ones that don't look aggressive that will kill you, because everyone has sense enough to cull any bull that shows any aggression immediately. If you don't already have a ring in his nose, get one in NOW, and make sure you have a good heavy chain to attach to the ring handy.

We keep three angus bulls. I do not trust them. Fifteen yrs. ago this week we were working the cows while sorting the bulls out they were fighting. I was up on the fence and one hit my left leg. Broke the leg and knee. Not a good day. Do not trust them. Steve

That bull should already be on his way to the meat packers. You didn't straighten "nuthin'" up, my friend. Watch him like a hawk any time you are around him.

I was going to mention he ought to carry something a bit stouter than a rake. (or a stick) But I'm not sure how far one should go with that line of conversation these days.

I've always wanted a few beef cows on my little farm but haven't because I wouldn't deal with a bull around.Glad to see everyone on this thread saying the same thing when it comes to safety and bulls. You really can't trust any male animals on a farm. Nastiest animal I ever had was a rooster. He got too close to the dog one day and that problem was solved.

The only way you are going to get change out of him will be right after they ask you if you want fries with your order.

Will he become more aggressive? Maybe-maybe not, but life is too short and hospitals are too expensive to make figuring that out a sensible option.
The mean ones don't hurt you because you are smart enough to be wary of them and get rid of them when so labeled.
We all read a few stories/obituaries per year about a guy and how good he WAS with cattle and how gentle his bulls were.
I don't care if you are Hulk Hogan you know dang well that stick or rake of yours no matter how hard you swing it is not going to stop a determined animal.

Familiarity breeds contempt I always remember that around cattle. The first thing you have to remember is not show fear they can sense that blood is another thing they can pick up on I never let a women go near a bull when it's that time of the month. Also how do bull fighters survive strange as it may seem but to protect there eyes bulls will close them seconds before they hit cows don't that actually makes cows more dangerous. Also I've heard bulls get more aggressive around cows with heifers they don't.
Bottom line don't trust them and get rid of the aggressive ones. When I was milking I could always milk a fresh heifer in a box stall with out tying her up breeder talked me into production disposition was a low inherited factor be was wrong I ended up selling almost all those heifers.

If you want to take the time and expense to learn, I am a huge fan of Bud Williams Stockmanship. http://stockmanship.com/ Bud is dead, but his wife, Eunice, is helpful. The DVDs are not cheap but I think a guy who can sort bull elk knows what he is talking about. I try to use his methodology and have had good results. Kurt Pate is great and so is Buck Brannaman. The last two get animals settled down.

My personal take on dealing with stock is that they think only in alpha beta relations; i.e. leader/follower or underling. If you are not the alpha, in their mind, you are a beta. That is not to say you get in a fight, instead you learn to read the animal, know when you can push, know when to wait. I have stood with a bull between me and the gate for several minutes. Understanding how close you should or should not be pays off. Sometimes that distance is 100 feet or more, sometimes a couple of yards. The thing to remember is these animals do not have the patience that you have. I am always standing there while seemingly nothing is going on how the animal will turn and go the way I desire simply to be rid of me. They pretty much want to be left alone, so if youset up a situation where they can go and be left alone it helps a lot. Also, the more you work them the better they are and it will reduce stress and shrink when you ship (read $$).

With relation to a couple of posts below; I would never get on an ATV or any other utility vehicle to move stock. On an ATV or Gator, etc. you have now put yourself at the height of the animal. Bad move and I have seen some bad accidents as a result. I use horse. I know all the problems with them but hear me out. A horse is another set of eyes and a god one seeks to preserve themselves. That is to say, if something charges you from a blind side a horse will likely see or sense it and move. This has happened several times with me and has saved my butt. I can swing a rope from a horse and whip his butt which is much farther away than a bat or a stick allows you to be (Bud, Kurt, and Buck would frown on this). Also, I believe a horse is more intimidating to stock than an ATV or something else that might be associated with a feed vehicle. That said, feed vehicles can be good cowboys too. It is just that once you get to where you want them, if you cannot drive in you are in the same situation you talked about.

My two cents. Stay safe. Play for animals is practice for what they really want to do and use your head. I think it is safe to say we are smarter than bulls so understand how they think and use it to your advantage. If he is overly aggressive, ship him. He is not worth yours or anybody else's life.

Your talking about the flight or fight zones. If you watch dogs and horses they use them. Basically you stand in front it's fight to the rear it's flight coming on the sides depending on where your at will determine where the animal will go. It's rare to see many people with that sense I've got Amish neighbor who's idea is simply get behind and chase I can do better on my own then with there help

I've had Angus, Shorthorn, Hereford, Brangus and Brahma bulls, Right now I have 5 Angus bulls. I never trust any of them but I never had any real trouble with any of them in 45 years of raising cows. 2 of the Angus bulls I have now are gentle as dogs but I never turn my back to them. Always try to stay away from their head. About a year ago one of them got a little aggressive with me and I worked over his nose with a piece of PVC pipe. He keeps his distance now.

Had AI for years when my dad was runnin the place, I went to bulls, AI in my book means, AREN'T INSEMINATED! lol

I remember years ago an old neighbor would always carry a 12 gauge with him to get the cattle in the barn. Had this bull that he had to shoot a couple of times in the rear with some bird shot. Got where this old man could step up on the fence with a stick in his hand and that bull could not get to the barn fast enough. I have been around cattle a lot in my life and I would not ever trust a bull of any color or disposition. A fresh cow who might think that you might harm her calf also needs to be respected. She can take you out as fast as the bull can.

We've always found that a whack on the end of the nose hurts, not on the head as others have said. Bull or cow will back down trom that, but we always keep gentle Angus bulls and have never had a problem with them being aggressive, just need to be taught who is boss when they are young.

Was he a "pet" for the former owner? My BIL has the tamest stock animal (much less Herford bull) I've ever seen. You can't drive him, he follows you around while you try to move the rest of the cattle. Makes you nervous with the 2000 pound animal right on your heels. You walk up to the fence and he crowds up to it so you scratch his neck. Apparently the farm where he was raised the kids fed him bread as a treat and he always expects it when some walks into the field. His calves are also extremely tame - much better than the deer like qualities my younger brother has found in some of his Angus calves.

" I can do better on my own then with there help"
Baxter Black has an expression: Having that guy show up was like having two good guys not show.