I have utmost respect to those who step forward to put their lives on the line for our protection. I hate the politicians who puts our country in the situation where it is necessary for our best and brightest to have to risk their lives to fight in these wars. There is a big hole left in a lot of lives when one of our soldiers dyes.
- Thread starter L.Fure
- Start date
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
It is even more of a shame. When veterans like my self and thousands of others. Can't get the help we were promised.
Goose
Well-known Member
Just yesterday, one of my wife's older brothers, who is a combat veteran of the Korean War, told me the most fun he had in the Army was when they were in a firefight. Scared to death, but having fun. And he said most of the combat veterans he knew would admit to the same thing.
The Marine Corps had me in a lot of shaky and clandestine situations, but never a direct firefight. In thinking about what my brother-in-law said, though, I can understand it. I was on active duty in the Corps during part of the Vietnam War, but never directly involved in country. The Corps always saw fit to involve me in matters of equal importance elsewhere. And for some reason I've always felt like I missed out on something important.
The Marine Corps had me in a lot of shaky and clandestine situations, but never a direct firefight. In thinking about what my brother-in-law said, though, I can understand it. I was on active duty in the Corps during part of the Vietnam War, but never directly involved in country. The Corps always saw fit to involve me in matters of equal importance elsewhere. And for some reason I've always felt like I missed out on something important.
Bill No MN
Member
Isn't that the truth.-Bill
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
No you really did not miss out on anything of not being in a FIREFIGHT or being pined down and having to call in artillery or and air strike darn near on top of you or running real low on ammo an supplys . Not knowing if this time out in the bush would be your last or who was not coming back . And then only to make it home with most of what you left with to get spit on and called all sorts of names treated like a leper and lied to by your gov. not be able to receive what they promised . Then dealing with what you did the rest of your life . No you did not miss out on a fire fight at all. I was in Nam for the Tet offensive and remember that first night vary well and the days after along with the rest , some nights like lastnight they come back to you .
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
I wasn't having fun when I killed the two VC in front of me. Made me sick and I get to visit with them about twice a week. When I try to sleep.All I hear from the VA is crickets.
Gary Mitchell
Well-known Member
Billy & Bill, I don't intend to hi-jack the post but I have an idea about veteran services, at least medical ones. I say give all veterans that have earned medical, dental, psychiatric treatment, and so on, an insurance medical card that has to be accepted by any professional service provider in the USA. Sell off the VA medical facilities to local, private owners and let Vets go where ever they choose. I figure that most veterans would go to providers convenient to them if they had a choice, so the folks currently working at VA hospitals should be able to find jobs in the area they live in helping the Vets they live near. That was not the case a few years ago when an old man I knew had to take a bus from West Central MO. to little Rock Arkansas to get a knee operated on at a VA facility. He lived within 50 miles of several hospitals that could have done the job locally. I am not a big fan of privatizing services that I think the government can successfully run w/o bias but apparently the medical field is something that the Veterans Administration has proven to be too inept at to be allowed to continue. Have the VA people treat the new "insurance system" as a single payer organization and deal with the paperwork. They are already doing work closely related to that as it is. Who pays? The tax $ currently going down the rat hole at the VA should more than take care of it. It's a shame that the rats who have benefitted the most from the recent wars are stashing TRILLIONS off-shore to avoid taxes when a fair portion of that should be taking care of "Old Soldiers." Just thinking,,,,,,, gm
What bothers me a lot is the refugee migration out of the middle eastern countries, a lot of men with their families fleeing the area. I am probably misinformed on this but my feeling is if they won't fight for their homeland and country, why should we send men and women to die to eradicate THEIR oppressor/enemy. Like I said I may not have all the information/data/facts. just an old soldier running his mouth. gobble
farmerwithmutt
Well-known Member
My 3 uncles were veterans (also son's of a
german immigrant) 1 fought in France in the
Marines in ww 1 and served in the Navy in
ww2 . 2 nd brother got tired of picking
corn by hand and joined the Marines was on
Bataan then got to corrigedor was promoted
from Sargent to captain captured there and
ended up in manchuria for the rest of the
war. 3rd uncle was in France as a scout for
Patton all came home and went back to work
they never really talked about there
experience . I graduated in 74 and I can
remember the conflict I had with my self if
I should go or not but there was no family
pressure to go.i guess in the long run I
was glad not to have to make a choice but
seeing how messed up a lot of guys were
that were older then me I really felt sorry
for those that served. The best I can do
now is if I'm at a cemetery and see a vet's
grave I make sure he's not forgotten stop
and say a prayer and make sure everything
is tidy .
german immigrant) 1 fought in France in the
Marines in ww 1 and served in the Navy in
ww2 . 2 nd brother got tired of picking
corn by hand and joined the Marines was on
Bataan then got to corrigedor was promoted
from Sargent to captain captured there and
ended up in manchuria for the rest of the
war. 3rd uncle was in France as a scout for
Patton all came home and went back to work
they never really talked about there
experience . I graduated in 74 and I can
remember the conflict I had with my self if
I should go or not but there was no family
pressure to go.i guess in the long run I
was glad not to have to make a choice but
seeing how messed up a lot of guys were
that were older then me I really felt sorry
for those that served. The best I can do
now is if I'm at a cemetery and see a vet's
grave I make sure he's not forgotten stop
and say a prayer and make sure everything
is tidy .
37chief
Well-known Member
- Location
- California
I don't think any country wasn't to go to war, but what is our country to do, when a foreign country blows up most of our battle ships on a Sunday morning? Stan
farmerwithmutt
Well-known Member
Read the history we backed them into a corner and they knew they weren't going to win but they decided to come out fighting. Germany thought they were behind the more advanced countries in race relations they concentration camp's were invented by the British in the boer war and look at what we did to Indian's black and handicap people . That's the trouble with war the winner writes the history.
James Howell
Well-known Member
Everything will be much better when approximately 200,000 of the <s>invaders</S> refugees are brought to the U.S. and supported by the government.
retired farmer
Well-known Member
I have always thought that the rich old men who want to start and be involved in wars, should be the ones put on the front lines with a rusty, malfunctioning rifle, and fifty rounds of ammo. Maybe that would slow them down a little.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
It takes TWO parties to stop a war, but only ONE to start one. The choices are simple - when we are attacked, do we fight back or just let it go??? How about the 3000 INNOCENT lives that were taken on September 11, 2001?? Should we fight back or just write them off?
NOBODY likes war. Sometimes there is no other choice but to defend ourselves. Like it or not.
NOBODY likes war. Sometimes there is no other choice but to defend ourselves. Like it or not.
showcrop
Well-known Member
To most of us anyone elected to any federal government office is a politician. They run for the position where part of their job is to take part in making defense decisions. So then what is your alternative? No politicians? That means no government, and thus either anarchy, or a despotic dictatorship. You should thank vets for your right to vote for representation in our democratic government, or go live in a place like Syria or North Korea!
The problem with that is cost. VA doesn't mark up everything from tissue to surgical needles. Some HMO's have been caught making stuff up as much as 119%. Plus look at all the fraud with Medicare. It would be even worse with veterans medical coverage like that. I did, not that long ago think like you. But then I started doing a little research. VA has some problems that need to be addressed. The grounds and buildings could be smaller and less expensive to care for. But it's the most cost effective way to get things done.
Rick
I like the idea of send the sword rattling politicians to the front lines. That alone would go a long way to better diplomacy.
Look at WWI and how all that got started. By the end of the war people were starving and the soldiers stopped fighting. Millions of lives were lost and countries were nearly ruined.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
I'm sure that there was a lot more behind the scenes that the average citizen will never know. Our leaders are not exactly forthcoming with information on who our enemies are and why.
My humble opinion about 911 is that while it may have been Saudi nationals that carried out the bombings, they were trained in Afghanistan be religious extremists that vow to kill us all. But, that is just my opinion. I don't know all of the facts, and probably no other citizen does without a high security clearance.
They only tell us what they want up to know. After that, lotsa luck!!
My humble opinion about 911 is that while it may have been Saudi nationals that carried out the bombings, they were trained in Afghanistan be religious extremists that vow to kill us all. But, that is just my opinion. I don't know all of the facts, and probably no other citizen does without a high security clearance.
They only tell us what they want up to know. After that, lotsa luck!!
There is a huge difference between refugees that are grateful for the opportunity offered and those who's religion condones things like killing anyone who isn't of the same religion or honor killings. There were not many if any WWII refugees who sent not only money but their children to fight against us. Today we have a growing number of people who are spending time in jail for doing just that. So yea, as a retired soldier who still considers my oath "against all enemies, foreign or domestic" to be valid, I can say we shouldn't let them in on the basis of national security. There is no way to vet them to find the ones who truly want to become American citizens and those who are bent on our destruction.
Rick
we have a good friend who spent some time in veit nam.
he was one of the "lucky" ones that got to spray agent orange he told me the army would give you some old piece of junk go spry something he and the helicopter would come back orange.
his daughter both have health issues he has cancer.
he gets some gov pension and "free" health at the va.
how free is it? i ask you.
he was one of the "lucky" ones that got to spray agent orange he told me the army would give you some old piece of junk go spry something he and the helicopter would come back orange.
his daughter both have health issues he has cancer.
he gets some gov pension and "free" health at the va.
how free is it? i ask you.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
Gary. The VA has or had a card program.They just didn't tell anyone about it. Of all the vets I talked to in my town. Only two knew about the card. But they were having a hard time finding anyone that would take it.
Elton Fancher
Member
My problem with the 911 thing is, and I may be looking at it wrong, but if we were not allways over there interfering in those countries trying to build a democracy for people that do not understand any concept other than tribal loyalties and dominance maybe we would not have them over here as enemies or immigrants. We need out of that mess and let the Russians and Saudis and Israelis and whoever work it out at their own expense. But we have a large number of politicians dependent on the defense industry for wealth and power and we let them lead us into one misstep after another.
Elton Fancher
Member
And on top of everything else there is no way to win, nothing to gain, and no way out except to pack up and run.
Saudi nationals working under the Taliban. Going after Saudi Arabia for 9/11 would be like most of Europe going after Corsica and ignoring France because Napolean was born there. In this case the enemy is radicalized nnalert, which appears to be most of nnalert, and it looks to me like they'll eventually win since modern America hates the Christian and Jewish faiths almost as much as the Moslems do.
Anytime some scoundrel gets the urge to start a war, they need to fire up the draft, with absolutely no exceptions for the rich kids. PLUS - they need to add a substantial tax to pay for said war. Those two conditions alone would put the brakes on most of these foolish ideas. It's a rich man's game - the longer it drags on, the richer they get, while the poor kids are the ones dying.
Gary Mitchell
Well-known Member
They need to make it illegal not to. gm
Donald Lehman
Well-known Member
You really should take some time to study the Koran. Makes no difference whether "we" are over there or not. Their whole religion is dedicated to killing anyone who is not of their religion. Other than the fact that we simply exist, our actions are of no consequence what-so-ever in regards to their actions. Thomas Jefferson was extremely shocked to discover that a "religion" such as nnalert, which was so totally at odds with every over known religion on the planet even existed. Thus his action against the Barbary Pirates because he realized there would be no bargaining with them. People just can't seem to get it through their heads that nnalert has been at war with the rest of the world since the day it was conceived by Mohammed, and will continue to be at war with the rest of humanity until them or us is wiped off the Earth. They cannot be pacified, they cannot be "lived with in harmony". The very tenants of their religion forbids it except to the extent that they can bide their time to become strong enough to kill you and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that.
Agreed! And so, if someone professes to believe in the koran and follows it's teachings
how then, can they be labeled as 'moderate'? What, then, differentiates a 'moderate nnalert' from a 'radical nnalert'? As Donald Lehman says:.......... [b:bdd30d3e55]'The very tenants of their religion forbids it except to the extent that they can bide their time to become strong enough to kill you'[/b:bdd30d3e55]........ They are in it for the long haul. We, as 'infidels', had better wake up - NOW! :evil:
That's congress. When they pass a budget for VA it's broken down, X amount for this and X amount for that. They cannot transfer those funds to anything else. So they have to spend the money they are given for grounds and buildings on grounds and buildings. If they don't use it all the next year when they may really need every penny they get cut. Just short sighted planning by the politicians. Happens with every government agency. I witnessed unused building being renovated because the Army had to spend money more than once. VA has the same problem.
Heck, the Army authorized us 28,000 per tank to get our tanks in great shape to turn them over to the TX national guard when we went from the M60A3 to the M1. One of our staff officers though we could keep any excess money and use it for training so we repaired stuff that we could have just replaced. WE averaged about 8K per tank. As soon as the last tank was turned in the Army snagged the excess back. Then the TX Nation Guard refused to accept the tanks. So they were sent to depot level rebuild and then went to TX. And at the end of the fiscal year the Army was dumping money into parts and maintenance to burn up that part of the budget.
Rick
But getting back to the OP.
The politicians make mistakes. Do I know or think I know what some of them are? Sure. Sometimes other countries don't give us a chance to live in peace. We, both vets and those currently serving are the ones who pay/paid the price.
Want to fix things? Let us win! We were determined to make the UN work so we settled for a negotiated settlement in Korea. What have we gained from that? OH, I know, another nuclear powered nation that would like to nuke DC! We did the same thing in Viet Nam and didn't do anything except make 58,000 American lives a total waste.
Look at Bin Laden. We figured out he was the master mind of 9/11. We wanted him. Afghanistan refused to turn him over. We had an excuse to go after him. WE had no business going into Iraq. We have no business and violate international law every time we arm "rebels" in what's an internal civil war. Doesn't matter how many people they are exterminating. None of out business.
If our politicians are going to spend lives they need to be sure that A: it's a matter of self defense, B: cost effective regarding the loss of US Service Members. And last: That we are there for total victory.
Rick
Rick
The politicians make mistakes. Do I know or think I know what some of them are? Sure. Sometimes other countries don't give us a chance to live in peace. We, both vets and those currently serving are the ones who pay/paid the price.
Want to fix things? Let us win! We were determined to make the UN work so we settled for a negotiated settlement in Korea. What have we gained from that? OH, I know, another nuclear powered nation that would like to nuke DC! We did the same thing in Viet Nam and didn't do anything except make 58,000 American lives a total waste.
Look at Bin Laden. We figured out he was the master mind of 9/11. We wanted him. Afghanistan refused to turn him over. We had an excuse to go after him. WE had no business going into Iraq. We have no business and violate international law every time we arm "rebels" in what's an internal civil war. Doesn't matter how many people they are exterminating. None of out business.
If our politicians are going to spend lives they need to be sure that A: it's a matter of self defense, B: cost effective regarding the loss of US Service Members. And last: That we are there for total victory.
Rick
Rick
Elton Fancher
Member
You should really take some time to study history, for centuries Jews, Christians and nnalert were able to live together until the pope initiated the first crusade. And until near the end of the 19th century Jew, Christians, nnalert, and Arabs lived together in Palestine under the Ottoman empire until jews fleeing Europe moved in and started the aggression that continues there to this day. We need out of everyones business for our own sake. If they come here blow them to hell, to go over there and expect them to be what we want them to be is idiotic
What about that speech? Still trying to blame Bush for everything? Bush and Powell were operating from intelligence given to them by the CIA. And if you go back and look the CIA has a pretty poor track record. They failed to ID the threat North Korea posed to the south just before the north invaded. Said Castro would never win and when he did said that the Bay of Pigs would work. Then they said that Castro would never allow the Soviets to emplace missiles in Cuba. They predicted that a couple of well armed US divisions would win in Viet Nam and the list goes on. The congress saw the same intel report Bush did and voted to take military action against Iraq. So what about that speech?
Rick
Elton Fancher
Member
I could care less about the British mandate for Palestine, I am sure of one thing, they will think long and hard before they follow us back into a ground war in the middle east. We have exhausted billions in resources, an untold number of lives, created a refuge crisis, and here we are, more than a decade and in worse shape than ever. Should we send more troops and occupy forever? Should we institute a draft in order to supply enough troops? Should we nuke everyone? Ya'll tell me how to win.
Andy Martin
Well-known Member
So my best friend in this world is a man that I don't even know his name. I was in college in the sixties and went to enlist two times in 69 and 70. Each time the recruiter told me to stay in school and then enlist and be an officer. I reluctantly took his advice (that was not his job to give that advice) and by the time I graduated in 1971 we were withdrawing troops. For years I regretted not doing my part, but now as I look back that recruiter did me a great, life changing favor. I wish I knew his name.
Not sure if it would work but look at what we did in Germany and Japan after we defeated them in WWII. We occupied them for many years. Yes we let them set up governments under our supervision that really couldn't do anything without our approval. We monitored what they were teaching in schools. When we let them establish a military again we supervised that for a good long time and even after we said the occupation was over we kept substantial levels of troops there giving their leaders time to learn their jobs. We did a pretty good job there.
IMO the first mistake we made with Iraq and Afghanistan was trying to force a democratic government on a people who didn't know anything about the democratic process, then stood back and said what you do is none of our business. Then when rebuilding their military tried to train senior leaders in just a few years when our own military trains people for years and years to be senior leaders. Guess the Iraqi and Afghan people are smarter than us??? 3rd mistake we made was not having enough boots on the ground to control these countries and the countryside. The terrain in Afghanistan is such and the size of the country means that we needed 3-4 times the number of soldiers on the ground to really make a difference. We needed about 1 1/2 what we had in Iraq.
Rick
This is part of what makes the United States an exception to the rule, IOW- American Exceptionalism. We not embrace the democratic process and personal freedom in our republic, we consider it the normal state of all human beings. We simply cannot grasp that some cultures, most in fact, can't make the leap to self determination and freedom. That's why efforts at letting other nations follow the "natural course" and the democratic/free thinking paradigm don't always succeed. We make the assumption places like Iraq and the former USSR will follow our lead and want what we have in the way of rights and freedoms. I think the western European/American idea of "freedom" is just so completely foreign to some cultures that they just never get it. Instead they follow the old manta of letting abusive and corrupt gov'ts run things. It's just the way it is and always has been. I think we were mistaken
Deutz Lover
Member
I don't see the cost and problems as coming from just one sector.
This was not VA, but I saw a cost breakdown from just some outpatient surgery at a local physicians owned hospital. Some of the items were marked up at least 7 times but they were under the radar whatever cut off that was. $27 for a bottle of methylene blue. I'll bet they used a new bottle each time. Ha
$80 for 500ml of iv saline. B.S.
I won't go on about this but have two things to say.
Eisenhower said "Beware the military-industrial complex." Others have now included it to say the military-industrial-congressional complex.
More than 12 years ago I told some of my relatives the it was the return of the" Robber Barons"
This was not VA, but I saw a cost breakdown from just some outpatient surgery at a local physicians owned hospital. Some of the items were marked up at least 7 times but they were under the radar whatever cut off that was. $27 for a bottle of methylene blue. I'll bet they used a new bottle each time. Ha
$80 for 500ml of iv saline. B.S.
I won't go on about this but have two things to say.
Eisenhower said "Beware the military-industrial complex." Others have now included it to say the military-industrial-congressional complex.
More than 12 years ago I told some of my relatives the it was the return of the" Robber Barons"
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