salesman laughed at me today

well I've been looking for a tractor. With the way things are, I don't want to take "the plunge". I'm sorry, I can
see no way to buy a $100,000 tractor, other than sell some ground, which would be counter productive.
I was looking at a tractor, and asking about it, and then the salesman said, you know that tractor is 35 to 40 years
old, what do you expect, and was smiling and starting to laugh...i had another dealership do the same thing.....yet
they want me to buy a tractor that is 15 years old, with 13,000 hours for $62,000. I am also starting to experience
you call the salesmen, and they don't return your calls. I know things are bad, but wouldn't it be better to sell something
in any given day, rather than nothing.
also, i've been faithful to these dealers for years, and given them quite a bit for parts.........but they don't care.
If those newer, fancy tractors are so dang good, why are they lined up at the dealership, and the older ones, don't
even make it to the dealership and sold within a matter of a day or two.......
and to make it worse, i can't even find a older, 120 hp tractor anymore.

Welcome to the world of tractor buying!

Around here you can buy 120 ish HP tractors for less than 20K most days. Occasionally even for less than 10K. I am in Mid Michigan. Just seen an AC 7020 with duals and cab with about 3500 hrs sell for $7k. They are out there but you just have to look for them and watch the online local auctions.

I share your sentiments. I thought with grain prices coming down tractor prices would as well or at least there would be more "deals". Clearly this is not the case. The local Salesman laughed at me last week when I asked if he had a good deal for me. He knows I have been looking. They seem to have all they can do to keep up with those who "just buy".

My sour grapes. I'm not spending $100K either.

Paul

You left some important details out... how much do farm and what are you expecting the tractor to do for you?

(quoted from post at 20:58:17 09/16/15) Around here you can buy 120 ish HP tractors for less than 20K most days. Occasionally even for less than 10K. I am in Mid Michigan. Just seen an AC 7020 with duals and cab with about 3500 hrs sell for $7k. They are out there but you just have to look for them and watch the online local auctions.

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LOL around here because of the lack of dealer support you would be lucky to see 5K for an AC 7020.

Rick

The problem is the end users are finally beginning to get fed up with all the new emissions and electronic BS on the new equipment, that make it so unreliable that it's not worth having around.

Put an add on computer on it to control the output from a planter, sprayer, etc........ use GPS to guide it..........electronic ad ons are 'cheap' and/or easily replaceable but if the tractor itself isn't running then none of them matter.

The way I look at it, 120 HP from a new tractor is no different than 120 HP from an old one. Yes, the new one might save fuel for a year or two, but when the dollar amount saved on fuel over those years is eaten up with the repairs caused by the first electronic breakdown (and the resulting parts, downtime/lost profits, etc)it pretty much tilts the playing field in favor of the older machines.

Most of my customers won't buy anything that isn't somewhat pre-electronic, and the ones that have bought newer usually regret it when they are forced to call the dealership to work on it....and then have to pay the outrageous prices for the OEM parts......

But that's just me, and I don't run tractors, I just fix it them when they break....and hear every curse uttered by my customer regarding the breakdown......

From some of the comments I've heard, dealer support for new $100,000 tractor isn't so great either. My neighbor got a new one with front wheel assist and somebody forgot to fill the front differential. It sat most of the summer waiting for parts.

i think the dealers are gonna be coming back to reality perty soon.

And there's another issue. It's interesting how dealers no longer assemble, or check over machinery. It's very different from the 70's when I worked at a dealership. The most disappointing piece of machinery I have purchased is a Hardi sprayer. It came to the dealer totally assembled, so they know nothing about it, and apparently don't care to learn. There have been many issues with it. The same dealer had a good customer support rep. who took care of other warranty issues for me. Apparently he was too good to customers, because they squeezed him out. Fortunately for him, he's on his own, and has more work than he can keep up with.

How old is a "old tractor" ? I took $22,000.00 for my 8000 hr 5140 CaseIH tractor last year , and was glad to get it. 23 year old tractor , ran good but it had issues ,and needed tires. The new owner knows why I bought a new tractor to replace it. And has been busy shoveling money into it . Now I run 4 tractors over 49 years old too , but they don't get the same hours the new tractor gets.If you are going to put 4-500 hours per year on your tractor, don't start with a 5-7000 hour tractor and think it will answer the call every day without constant work and money. You pay one way or the other. Bruce

The older 120 hp ones are out there... but in high demand, too. The dealers are pushing what they have too much off- big new stuff nobody wants, and high hour, 15 year old stuff they took in trade. They are most likely upside down on all of it. And not much of anything is moving. As of this morning, there are 10000 plus JD tractors listed on tractorhouse. Many of them have been there a while... hence the snow on the ground in the photos. It took awhile for the housing market to re-adjust, but it did. Late model tractors will be the same. Older ones, though, seem to hold their value better if taken care of, especially those not requiring a computer plugin to fix it.

You don't see much bragging by "Machinery Pete" lately, do you?

PS- The salesman might have laughed at you, but he'd probably been laughed at a lot lately, too! Odds are you'll still be farming long after he's had to look for a new job.

Sometimes when not sure what to do, it's best to do nothing!

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. The manfs. Are going to send the equipment out as assembled as they can. A Deere PDI still includes checking all fluids air pressure checking proper operation of everything 1/2 hour on the dyno for breakin/proper operation check . A combine takes 40 hours of setup for a PDI setup and installation of accessories common to this area. Air seeder comes broken down in 12 ft? Sections and takes a week or more to put together it also depends on how much your dealer cares

What were your questions that were laughed at?

In another generation of people like us they will be making ways to eliminate the troublesome electronic controls on these tractors hoping to keep them moving, and the ones that the dealers are laughing at will still be in the field working...when your looking for a dependable 100-150Hp tractor in the Deere world a 4240-4440 with Quad Range are the ones to look at no electronics, a dependable system through out, and an air conditioning system that will stay working, and yes things can and will wear out on these but they are successfully repaired and simple to diagnose..Already I am seeing shiny New "Top of the Line" tractors with electronic Gremlins in them that make them set...and Deere is keeping the diagnosis equipment to themselves so no one will be able to deal with the issues on their own..

Of course "some assembly" will still be required. But it's nothing like it was back in the 70's. You learn a lot about a machine putting it together.
None of this, in my mind, absolves the dealer from doing a complete pre delivery check over. But my point is, since they don't have to assemble it, how many dealers really spend as much time as they should checking over a piece of equipment? I've purchased some new machines in the last few years, and it doesn't matter the color- pre delivery checks aren't complete, and, another issue- warranty coverage has been a challenge at times too.

The new stuff with electronics, emissions, and wire looms tied on top of wire looms with miles of wire can be very productive and have useful features.

But they need to be leased on a revolving lease, worked hard and long in 3 years, and returned to the dealer before the lease/warrenty expires.

They are not for the 'regular' farmers with 1000 acres or less.

The govt is making it so there is nothing available for the 'regular' farmers tho. Even chainsaws are needing to be electronically run so as to meet emissions, so they too are throw away devices, nothing you can fix any more.

Paul

I agree. Sooner or later, you will be able to purchase a kit that will convert an electronically controlled machine into a mechanically controlled one. After all, the hardware or working parts on those tractors should still be good for 10,000 hours or more.

Ben

The only problem with that idea is that many of the electronic controls are to control the injectors, and therefore the emissions. Nearly all of that stuff is going to be proprietary to the OEM, and therefore patented. The result is when it breaks, and it will, the OEM is pretty much assured of your business to get it repaired or replaced.

So, until the patents run out on all of it, the machines are dead without the OEM. So, if the machine breaks down today, and the patent doesn't run out for 20 years (or whatever) then the machine is worthless until that time....without the OEM.......

That's why I always suggest my customers buy older, pre-electronic machines that can still be reaired with duct tape, and bailing wire......LOL

The trouble with warranty is that the Dealerships usually ate a lot of the cost of warranty repairs in the years past. They where making better money on the up front sale so they could spend some on the warranty service and still be OK. These days the manufactures are making warranty coverage payments be as small as possible. So the dealership is losing money on warranty repairs left and right. So your not going to get the warranty service you did years ago.

(quoted from post at 11:24:55 09/17/15) The new stuff with electronics, emissions, and wire looms tied on top of wire looms with miles of wire can be very productive and have useful features.

But they need to be leased on a revolving lease, worked hard and long in 3 years, and returned to the dealer before the lease/warrenty expires.

They are not for the 'regular' farmers with 1000 acres or less.

The govt is making it so there is nothing available for the 'regular' farmers tho. Even chainsaws are needing to be electronically run so as to meet emissions, so they too are throw away devices, nothing you can fix any more.

Paul

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Paul, you hit the nail on the head. A few years ago I went to Omaha Nebraska to pick up a road tractor that a friend was buying for the company that he was working for. The salesman for Werner Freight systems picked me up at the airport and took me to my hotel. On the way I asked him at what mileage Werner replaced their trucks. He told me that it is not miles it is when the warrantee runs out. They run them very hard the first to years, as they go to driver "teams" that put on mega hours, then for another one or two years to a lone driver who puts on only lots of miles. So they are using them up without concern for repairs, or needing lots of shops all around the country, Then turn them over to a small business to deal with the cost of repairs. Same as the large farm businesses.

Took me months to find one last year. Exactly that, no returned calls. Few on the lot, the ones that are have issues (clutch, transmission out or issue, oil floating in water, oil leaks requiring tractor to be split, etc., high hours, unknown hours, basically buy, put in shop on day one, and pay for any repairs of existing issues and hope nothing else is wrong). Budget made no difference. Spend $20k, get crap. Spend $40k, get crap, just a little newer, $60k started to get more reasonable, but still, 8k hours. Craigslist is borderline useless for my area, and no tractors on it, none or rare in classifieds. IH 1086, cheapest I saw was $15k with high hours, Allis and even Case, didn't see one under $12k. 66 series IH was around $12k. Flipper around has a couple small MX IH in at this time, they look "ok", but I was there last year, saw a couple "befores" with live mouse nests and looked like they had been beaten to pieces, one had a calendar from 10 years ago in it and looked like it had been sitting that long, and when asking if actual hours, the response was him shrugging his shoulders. 99% of dealer lots have a row of new tractors, and that's it. I got about 300 miles away looking, had I been able to go further, looked like I could have found something. But, can't leave for that long, ALMOST considered buying something site unseen, because I was very tired of looking around here, but know better than that, unless I could get a whole bunch of stuff in writing (not likely).