Well tank

My son in law bought a older house and has been trying to go threw and repair things.
I went today to help him install a new tank on his well because the old one has developed some pin holes and has started to leak. I got in a little over my head so I need some help.

My well has a above ground jet pump with a bladder tank so this is what I am use to.

He has a submersible pump in the well. He bought a tank that looks exactly like his old one but I have no experience with them.
Supposedly this tank has no bladder; but has two different holes in it where you can install a Air Volume Control Valve.
I looked at his old tank and it does have some type of thing screwed into the tank with a pressure gauge installed on it. I assume this is the Air Volume Control Valve.

So a few questions....
1) It is my understanding that a bladder tank can not be used with this pump because it pumps a little bit of air when it first starts up.
2) It is my understanding this Air Volume Control Valve has a float on it that stops the water level at this point. It controls this by letting air out of the tank.
3) There is what looks like a valve stem in the pipe between the pump and tank. If you look right under the pressure switch you can see it. I assume this would be used to let air out the line on first start up. Or it may be used to add air. Really do not know.

So does anyone have any experience with this type of system.
Are my 3 assumptions above correct.
If not can you explain it to me.
Should I replace this Air Volume Control Valve with a new one while we are replacing the tank.
Do they make different Air Volume Control Valves and if so how can I tell what one to buy.

I have included some pictures of his old tank.

OH
And please do not ream me to bad about how the previous owner wired this pump.
We are gona fix that and add a house to enclose the tank.

I have a submersible pump and do use the newer stlye tank with a bladder in it. Pretty sure a submersible pump does not pump any air initially--the piping from it should stay full of water at all times unless the foot valve leaks and the is a spot where air can enter the line---although water would go out this same spot once pressure builds. Best ask a plumber about your specific application.

Ben

Can't help you, John. I have a set-up pretty much like that, but fortunately I haven't had any problems, so therefore no necessity to get too involved in how it works. I have only one suggestion: after you get it operating, smear grease on that romex going into the switch box, and on the nipple supporting the switch box. Otherwise those Louisiana fire ants are going to find their way into your contact points.

One other suggestion: whatever you do, be done by 8 p.m. Kickoff time.

I have a submersible pump in a 375' deep well used with a bladder tank with NO issues.

This is out on the "tundra" and is in a well pit extending out from the basement so there's access to pull the well, yet it's protected from freezing?

AFAIK, typically, (at least around here) there's a check valve down at the pump and one between the well and pressure tank, so NO air enters each time the pump starts.

It looks like yours is set up with the pressure switch tapped into one side of an in-line check valve and a "snifter" valve on the well side. Is it possible there's no check valve down at the pump and air enters the "snifter valve" each time the pump stops and the water then drains back into into the well?

If so, is that "code legal" in your area?

Bladder tank with submersible pump for 35 years, no problems except pump had to be replaced twice. Would not consider any other type. Had for too many years mess with the non bladder type at anouther place and constantly having to add air to tank. Bladder type you do not have to do that with.

The best system uses the bladder tank and it requires no maintenance. The air control valve is a float that lets air escape from the tank if you charge it with too much air [thru the air valve you described] or from air in the pipes. This type of tank pressure system is designed for use with jet pumps that are above ground and collect a small amount of air between cycles.
A submersible pump should be used with the bladder tanks because no air enters the system between cycles. Foot valves are not used with submersible pumps as the pump has a check valve built in. Happy farming!

Submersables do not push air into the tank. So using a bladder tank is way superior to the air control system. Jim

This is a cut/paste explanation from a well supply site.



Pressure Tank Maintenance

If your pump kicks "on and off rapidly", water pressure in the house is not good, lights in the house "flicker" when water is being used, breaker trips occasionally, or you just want to check the "air pressure in the tank" read the following.

All pressure tanks must have the correct amount of air to water ratio. The air acts like a spring to push water out of the tank when a tap is opened. The pressure will decrease as the water is pushed out of the tank, until the pressure drops low enough for the pressure switch to start the pump. There is usually a 20 pound bandwidth between pump start and pump stop, such as on at 40 PSI and off at 60 PSI.

Once the pump starts at 40 PSI, the tank is refilled and the air in the tank is again compressed until the pressure reaches 60 PSI and the pump shuts off. The amount of water that the tank will express as the pressure lowers from 60 to 40 PSI, is called "draw down". Most of the volume of a pressure tank is filled with air. An 80 gallon size tank only holds 23 gallons of water, and a 20 gallon size tank only holds 5.35 gallons of water.

There are basically two types of pressure tanks, which are "Hydro Pneumatic" and "Bladder or Captive Air tanks."

Hydro Pneumatic Tanks

Hydro Pneumatic means air over water. These type tanks usually have two pipes, a pipe on one side comes from the well, and a pipe on the other side of the tank goes to the house. These are plain tanks with nothing separating the air from the water. Since air is touching water inside the tank, the air will mix with the water and be taken out with the flow of water. These type tanks require some kind of air make up system to continually replace the air. The most common air make up system is the bleeder orifice style. A bleeder orifice is a fitting that goes down in the well about 5' below the surface. This fitting has a small hole that is covered with a flap or a ball from the inside of the pipe when pressure is applied. This keeps the bleeder orifice closed when the pump is running and there is pressure in the pipe.

There must always be a one way check valve on a submersible pump. The bleeder orifice works in conjunction with an additional check valve that is installed above ground before the pressure tank. On the inlet side of this check valve there should be a "schrader valve". A "schrader valve" looks like the valve stem on a car tire. When the pump shuts off, the above ground check valve closes and keeps the pressure in the pressure tank from going back down the well. As soon as this above ground check valve closes, the pressure in the pipe down hole will be at low or no pressure, and the ball or flap in the bleeder orifice will open. As water drains out of the bleeder orifice into the well, the schrader valve will allow air to be sucked into the pipe. The water in the pipe will then drain down to the level of the bleeder orifice in the well, so all the pipe from the bleeder orifice to the schrader valve will be filled with air. .

When someone uses water from the other side of the tank, the pressure will drop from 60 to 40 PSI as the amount of water available from the draw down in the tank is being used. When the pump starts at 40 PSI, the pressure in the pipe closes the bleeder orifice and the air that was in this top section of pipe is forced through the above ground check valve and into the pressure tank. Each time the pump cycles on, more air is injected into the pressure tank. If too much air is injected into the tank, soon air will start to come out the faucets and will blow a glass out of you hand or blast air at you in the shower. Therefore another device called an "Air Volume Control" or AVC is used to bleed any excess air out of the tank. The AVC is usually installed about half way up the side of the tank through a 1 1/2 inch fitting. Sometimes the pressure gauge or even the pressure switch will be attached to the AVC as well. Although sometimes the pressure switch and gauge are attached to the pipe going into the tank, and the AVC will only have a small brass fitting sticking out of it.

Inside the tank on the AVC there is a float on a 12" rod that drops when the water level is low. When this float is in the low position, the AVC allows excess air out of the tank through the little brass fitting outside the tank. When the float on the AVC is up, this little brass fitting is closed so as not to allow water out of the AVC. All four of these items, the bleeder orifice, the above ground check valve, the schrader valve, and the AVC must be working properly for the air make up system to function. If the AVC is not working, you will get air in the faucets in the house. If either the bleeder orifice, above ground check valve, or the schrader valve are not working, the tank will become "waterlogged" and the pump will cycle on and off very rapidly.

There are also other types of air make up systems that use a air injector or "micronizer", or a small air compressor to add air instead of a bleeder orifice system. These are not as common and so we won't discuss them here.

To manually add air to a "hydro pneumatic" type system you should first shut off power to the pump. Opening a faucet will not completely drain the tank as it is like holding your finger over a straw full of water. You must remove a fitting half way up the tank or higher to allow air in. The air will gurgle as the tank slowly drains of water. You can also use a compressor to add air at the schrader valve while a faucet is open. This will force air in, and water out of the tank without needing to remove any fittings. Once all the water has been blown out of the tank, or has been drained out of the tank, replace any fittings that were removed, close the faucets and restart the pump. Having to do this means your air make up system is not working and should be repaired, or this maintenance procedure that should be done very regularly.

Hydro pneumatic tanks are one of the oldest style pressure tanks. These type tanks are now only used in certain areas where water quality requires them. Mixing air with water in these type tanks is used to reduce "rotten egg" smell from sulphur or other things in the water. If your system does not require mixing air with water for water quality purposes, then a bladder type pressure tank can eliminate several moving and wearable parts, which can make the system more reliable and require less maintenance.

Bladder or Captive air tanks

One of the most common types, these tanks use a bladder or a bag to separate the water from the air. These are called "bladder tanks", "bag tanks", "captive air tanks", or "pre-charged tanks". These tanks will only have one opening in the bottom, as the water goes in and out the same pipe. These type tanks will feel light or empty when shook back and forth, as there is only a small percentage of water at the very bottom, and the rest of the tank is filled with air. Bladder tanks do not require an air make up system or an above ground check valve, which eliminates four wearable parts from the old style Hydro Pneumatic style systems, and makes bladder tanks more reliable and have less maintenance.

The air "pre-charged" is separated from the water by the bladder. This air cannot mix with the water, and therefore should not be able to get out of the tank. Air is made of very small molecules and can escape through the rubber bladder or even through the steel shell of the tank. Air can also escape through the schrader valve on top of the tank, if the valve stem core is leaking or the cap is not tight. Although it should take may years for the air to escape from a good bladder tank. I have seen bladder tanks that are 25 years old or older, that are still within a couple of pounds of the original pre-charge pressure.

A disadvantage of bladder type tanks is that cycling on and off causes the bladder to go up and down continuously. The bladder flexing back and forth will cause the rubber bladder to break, similar to bending a wire back and forth until it breaks. Once this bladder is busted, the tank must be replaced. Rapid cycling on and off is usually the first sign of a broken bladder.

To check the air pressure in a bladder tank the power to the pump must be turned off. Then a faucet should be opened until water stops coming out of the tap. While the pump is off and the faucet is still open, you can check the air pressure at the schrader valve on top of the tank. You will need to use a car tire pressure gauge on the schrader valve. The air pressure in the tank should be 2 to 10 PSI below the "start" pressure of the pump. IE; with a 40/60 pressure switch, the air pre-charge in the tank should be no higher than 38 PSI and no lower than 30 PSI. Use an air compressor to pre-charge the tank to the correct pressure. If the air is coming back out of the open faucet, then the bladder is busted. If while holding the valve core down on the schrader valve, water comes out, the bladder is busted. If the schrader valve will not accept air from the compressor, the bladder is most likely busted.

Sometimes you can add air to a tank with a busted bladder and it will work temporarily. Usually the busted bladder will eventually settle over the water opening in the tank and no water will come out. Even if the tank continues to work without causing a rapid pump cycle, the water on top of the busted bladder can become stale and/or rust a hole in the un-coated air side of the tank. A tank with a busted bladder should be replaced as soon as possible.

When replacing a tank with a busted bladder, many times the bladder pieces have sealed over the water inlet connection. In this case, even after removing the inlet piping from the tank, the water cannot get out and the tank will be extremely heavy. The only way to empty the water from the tank, is to punch or drill a hole in the side of the tank to let the water out. This can make a big mess in your well house but, an 80 gallon tank that is full of water because of a busted bladder can weigh over 700 pounds. This can make it impossible to haul the tank out of the room, if you do not punch a hole in it and let the water out first.

Yearly or periodic inspections of your air pre-charge in the tank can help you maintain the correct air pressure. This will greatly extend the life of the tank by eliminating over flexing of the bladder. The best way to increase the life of a bladder tank, is to reduce the amount of pump cycling. A larger pressure tank will reduce the number of cycles per day, or a constant pressure valve such as a Cycle Stop Valve can drastically reduce the number of cycles per day. This will greatly increase the life of a bladder in a tank, as well as increase the life of the pump itself.

Conclusion

There is always something going wrong with a bleeder, check valve, schrader, and air volume control system. All of these things must work perfectly to maintain the correct air volume in the tank. Air sound for a couple of seconds when the pump comes on is normal. I would be more worried when you do not hear the air noise. Usually the check valve up top stops holding good, and then the bleeder in the well can't open. Then you don't hear air coming into the tank, and soon your pump starts cycling on and off too often. You really can't have too much air in the tank until it starts blowing a glass out of your hand when you try to get a drink of water. Too much air means your Air Volume Control is not working. Usually the little float on the inside of the tank just rust off and falls in the tank. Then the excess air can't get out and does not maintain the correct level.

This is why most people use a bladder tank. There is no air charge system to maintain. Got to get rid of all those air charge components if you change to a bladder tank, or you get air where it shouldn't be.

Your son-in-law needs a bladder tank or he will have continual problems with the tank becoming "water logged",(too little air volume in the tank.) He will frequently have to add more air to the tank. A bladder tank is clearly worth the extra cost as it will operate problem free for years. The submersible pump does not add any air to the system, rather, the air is gradually removed by the flow of water from the tank.

by memory, old method used before bladder tanks. with a submersible pump a bleeder valve was installed in a tee fitting normally installed 1 pipe length below top of well, snifter (schrader) valve allowed air in to pipe down to bleeder when pump was off. when pump started this air was compressed into tank. the air volume control was used to bleed off excess air if everything is working correctly. if converting to a bladder tank some times you can get by leaving the bleeder valve in and capping the snifter valve or replacing it with a plug, however if you have air problems when using a bladder tank the bleeder will have to be removed. i ended my water well work in 1978 so i may need correcting on this use info as you see fit leroy

Bladder tanks are the way to go, they don't need to be recharged, air chuck your seeing is to charge that system, and the pressure switch is what turns pump off, not air volume control which I've never heard of, I didn't think they sell tanks anymore without bladder, and don't know why anyone would want one, that tank he bought might have bladder, look for air chuck in top.

i type way to slow see excellent answer 2nd below

I have had 2 submersible well systems--on the first one the water line to the tank was subject to freezing temperatures so it was a non bladder type tank with air control to let air out of the tank because there was a sniffer valve that let air in the line to let water drain down

On the second well system the water line was not subject to freezing temperatures so it was a bladder type tank with no air control but just a valve stem to add air when needed for the bladder

Back in the old days men were big and wells were shallow. Pumps were piston type, usually in the basement, and the bladder tank had not yet been invented. The air over water tank kept the pump from short cycling. piston pumps had a small tube coming off the pump chamber that would put a little air in the tank every time it cycled. Then the piston pumps were replaced by shallow or deep well jet pumps, and the shallow wells were replaced by deep drilled or driven wells and the bladder tank came out and replaced the old tanks that needed replacement air periodically. There is no longer a need to be adding air. Adequately sized bladder tanks should last thirty years.

Thanks guys.
A few things I did notice in the reply's.

[b:654c4848f0]Mixing air with water in these type tanks is used to reduce "rotten egg" smell from sulphur or other things in the water[/b:654c4848f0]

I do not know the quality of the well water. Original owner may have installed this type tank to combat egg water smell.

[b:654c4848f0] if converting to a bladder tank some times you can get by leaving the bleeder valve in
however if you have air problems when using a bladder tank the bleeder will have to be removed[/b:654c4848f0]

I really do not want to create more problems and have to pull the whole pump out the well.

So I think I am going to buy a new Check Valve with the Snifter Valve; and a new Air Volume Control Valve for the tank so we will have all new above ground parts and just go with the new tank he has already bought.

Thanks again.

In my house, I have a 60 gallon bladder tank used with my deep well, and it works just fine. However, I've used a charged tank like yours most of my life, and they do require maintenance. The switch that your pump uses and you have a photo of, is spring pressure loaded that simulates on the average of 40 - 60 pounds shutoff pressure, often about 25 - 30 pounds cut on pressure. Its adjustable. That meter is pretty straight forward, tank pressure. Below your switch, I can see the charge valve used for pressuring the tank with air. That isn't where I would have put it, but it will work there. Its just that when you go to pressurize the tank at that point, water will spray out initially because lets face it, the valve is well below the air level line, under water. No big deal. Older charge tanks like yours are merely steel tanks that wear and rust with time, but generally are good for decades if properly maintained. The inlets and outlets on your tank are located best, as low as possible because when the tank fills, the rushing water tends to churn, mix, and when it does, air gets mixed in with the water, and that's how a tank loses pressure...especially when discharging water as the pump is running, air and water mixing, and out the discharge it goes. So for that reason, its best to keep the discharge as low as possible since the air will tend to rise, and rise as the water and air separate as things calm down. This is a picture that I've posted before of a shallow well and tank that I have in one of my barns. I went with a charged tank, not bladder for a reason. I live in northern Indiana and empty my tank and lines for the winter where the temps often get below 0 degrees. I can do that with my charged tank, but am not comfortable doing that to a bladder tank and allowing it to set frozen with some water left in it, not knowing what the ice will do to the bladder. My tank is 60 gallons lined with fiberglass, so I don't need to worry about it rusting from the inside, nor the outside anymore so than a bladder tank. Because of the placement of my inlets and outlets, I went as low as possible on both, lowest on the outlet/discharge to keep it as far from the air as possible to decrease the chances of water logging...losing air mixed in with the water. From this photo, you can see the charge from the pump. The discharge is on the backside, and if you look real close, you can just see the discharge pipe, low between the tank and compressor running against the wall.

Good luck.

Mark

"So I think I am going to buy a new Check Valve with the Snifter Valve; and a new Air Volume Control Valve for the tank so we will have all new above ground parts and just go with the new tank he has already bought."

Yes, since the non bladder type tank has already been purchased, you'll have to put it back with the snifter valve and air volume control valve "IF" you can find them. That is the old school way to do it, before bladder tanks were invented.

Does it not freeze there? Looks like some freeze and weather protection would be in order.

We had a system like that when we lived in the StCloud MN area, they were quite common because of hydrogen gas present in the groundwater. The pump does push some air into the tank with every start and the air volume bleeder bleeds off the excess air along with any hydrogen gas present. You can't just switch it to a bladder tank unless you make some changes in the well.

Does it not freeze there?

Very seldom. On the few nights it does get cold enough simply letting a faucet drip or throwing a blanket over the tank is enough to keep the water from freezing. The heat radiating from the ground under the blanket is usually enough to keep the tank from freezing. You can see many tanks just sitting in the yard; just like this one; while driving around here.

Looks like some freeze and weather protection would be in order

We are installing a concrete paver block floor and a building big enough to hold the well pipe and tank for weather protection.

get the correct size bladder tank for your application and air volume control is nothing but a headache,daddy use to work on well pumps for the neighbors there no telling how many air volume controls he repaired and replaced, he quit using air volume controls and went to using hydrocells when folks would buy them long before bladder tanks came out

Buy the tank with a bladder. I installed one in my first home. Those air volume controls are worthless. Hal

Bladder tank system is great, but where do you find a tank in which the bladder will last longer than the five year warranty? Had to replace the tank twice in the last 15 years. Both times the tank was just over the five year warranty. I remember when the bladder would last for many many years.

That's my thought too! The tank we had in St Cloud lasted 30 years+, the bladder tank in this house didn't last 5 years. The supplier warranted it, and I changed it.

Do you think it could be planned obsolesces? Nah, they wouldn't do that to us.

(quoted from post at 06:11:10 09/13/15) Bladder tank system is great, but where do you find a tank in which the bladder will last longer than the five year warranty? Had to replace the tank twice in the last 15 years. Both times the tank was just over the five year warranty. I remember when the bladder would last for many many years.

Click to expand...

As I my earlier post, an adequately sized bladder tank will last twenty years or more. If it is not big enough it will cycle a lot more frequently than it should and wear out much faster. Many other things wear out quickly if undersized.

Must be in the south. Pipes would split between September and April here.