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keyed switch

M

mudmuckgrease

Member
I haven't been able to find a keyed switch with OFF-ON-ON positions without the START option. I have an old J20 Ditch Witch with it's charging system converted to an alternator. It has a start button on the floor that I want to keep for safety reasons. I need the two ON positions because I can't connect the alternator circuit to the same circuit as the coil's because I wouldn't be able to turn the motor off. For the life of me, I can't find a switch with that configuration. Does anyone know where I might find such a switch?
 
Yes, I have in every form I can think of. What pops up are companies that will display toggle switches in an ON OFF ON configuration, or wall switches – everything you could think of, except in the OFF ON ON configuration. What I am looking for is a keyed switch that will go from OFF to ON ( connecting the alternator) and then to the second ON (Connecting the coil) while leaving the first ON .. on. It seems like such a simple thing, but what I find on the internet is everything but that style and configuration. Its weird because it seems to me such a simple thing. It would be like a regular ignition switch that goes OFF ACC START, but leave out the spring loaded START pole and replace it with a simple ON pole. I'm hopping some of the older tractors will have that kind of ignition, and if so, it may lead me to finding that kind of switch.
 
Thanks Dalex, I guess a diode will let me use a simple ON OFF keyed switch. The diode will be on the field wire - I wonder what amps will handle that?
 
I am thinking my zero turn,a Husqvarna, is like that,but one position may be for the optional lights that it does not have.Might be something to look at.Mark
 
I have always used the Radio shack 276-1661 diode but now that they are gone I do not know other then it was a 6 amp diode and the line on it goes to the alternator side. You can also use a simple ballast resister in that wire and it will do the same thing. My Oliver S88 has the ballast resister set up
 
A diode rated 3 amps would work, but just to have bigger stronger leads I might use a 5 to even 10 amp unit. If its to prevent ignition run on when exciting a 3 wire alternator used on a coil ignition gas tractor, I might use a 10 ohm resistor or a charge indicating idiot light instead.

John T
 
I have two lawn mowers, one Cub Cadet and one Deere. Each have ign switch with off, lights, run, and then start but I would go with a diode. I use diodes out of old rectifier bridges from the Delco 10SI alternators. Have done that for many years. Just knock a diode out of the bridge and carefully solder a wire onto each end of it. Plenty of current carrying capacity. No Radio Shack within 50 miles.
 
If you need a switch with 2 on positions a switch from a John Deere LA/D series lawnmower would work. Good for 20 amps and 50000 cycles. Has on and On with lights. GY20074. Less than $20 W/O key. May or may not work. The diode is the answer though.
 
late model Ez-Go golf cars have a keyed ignition switch that is off-on and on again with the first on still powered that way the ignition is still on and the lights come on with the second on position.
 
I checked out my 9N, and noted that a resistor was installed in its circuit. I don't understand how that can work, but it does! I do understand a diode, however. My problem on the trencher is that connecting the field wire from the alternator to the coil's circuit, will keep the engine running even though I turned off the coil switch. The alternator simply takes over supplying juice to the coil. A diode will stop that, but changing the volts to a lower voltage with a resistor ... I guess that would work ... kind of ....
 
Some Arctic Cat 4-wheelers (for example, my FIL's 2006 model 250) have a three-position OFF-ON-ON_with_lights switch that could probably be used for what you're wanting to do.
 
I have used the diode twice. Works great. On my pulling tractor used a toggle switch. On the altinator wire.
 
Quite a few Rat Shack stores have closed down, but the company is still in business.
Google that Radio Shack number and some compatible diodes will come up or you can buy them at about any online electronic catalog.
 
What ever solution you choose, diode, resistor (incandescent lamp), or leave it as it is wired, be sure the switch you choose is rated for outdoor use, as in for a tractor, or marine use. The automotive switches are not intended for exposure to weather.

BTW, the terminology you're looking for is a "double pole" switch. Unless there is a need for a key switch, a toggle switch with a rubber boot is available. Can find them at better auto supplies, truck and outdoor equipment shops.
 
It works just fine as I said my Oliver S88 has that set up. A simple light bulb like the ones in a gauge will do the same thing. Or like my W Speed Patrol I use a 3 position pull switch so it starts a in the first position lout then the 2nd position out turns on the lights and the alternator excite circuit
 
Yes a resistor works as well, plus is cheaper, and you don't need to worry about wiring it at the correct polarity like if it were a diode.

Another option is a small incandescent idiot light charge indicator bulb. It shows if your charging PLUS prevents run on from backfeeding the coil.

Got it???

John T
 
Just a note on the small engine switches, like on lawnmowers; many, if not all, use a ground-to-kill ignition system. Not sure you could use that successfully.
 
You only need an OFF / ON switch with ACC. It could be either two position of three position. The key is to have both an ING and ACC terminal along with the BAT terminal. That type of switch will separate the ING and ACC terminal when in the OFF position.
 
It sure looks like it would ... depends on if the last pole is a spring loaded start pole. I found a source for them and I noticed that they made a distinction between switches for gas and diesel. Along side the gas switch, they offered start buttons; so I'll bet the switch has a OFF ON ON configuration without the start. I ordered the switch. If it doesn't work out for me, I still have the diode idea.
Thanks for the tip, Hay hay hay!
 

Do whatever you like but it seems to me that you are going out of your way to make things harder for yourself.

As has been already stated, a simple 194 bulb and socket wired into the exciter wire is all you need.
 
Thanks for the advice, Steve@Advance. I'm not familiar with the terminology on a lot of what I am bound to run into, and I appreciate your help as I learn while on the go. A double pole switch .... good - go it!
 
At this time, I am running the machine hot-wired - dangling wires and clips. I could continue in this way, but I'm thinking of buying new tires, and a new chain for it and I would like to clean it up - maybe even give it new paint; so, yes, I am getting a bit finicky. It is a useful machine and I want to keep it around for a while; so whatever I do for it, I want to understand how it all works. In the short run, I am making it hard for myself, but in the long run, it will be a lot easier when I have to go back to do maintenance. I'm not doubting the suggestion that putting resistance in the alternator's field wire will work; it's just that I don't understand why that works! I do viscerally understand why a diode will work with this circuit; so I'll go with what I do understand.
I really do appreciate all the help that was offered by all the folks here - you-all got me unstuck!
 

Suit your self, I really don't know what would be simpler than this and it can be done very neatly.

The lamp also acts as a charging indicator, when the engine is running, if the light is off the alt is charging, if it is on, it is not charging.

Simple and effective, what more could anyone want.


mvphoto24222.gif
 
So far, so good - now put an ignition coil in your schematic and see what happens. What I found, was that the generator will take over supplying the coil with juice after I turn the key off; in other words, the only way I would be able to turn the motor off is with a pair of wire clippers! Where you show a indicator light, I have an amp meter. So far, there are two simple solutions: 1. Run the coil off one of those empty terminals on the switch in your schematic, providing the switch have an OFF ON ON configuration so that I can run the charging system and the coil on independent circuits 2. Put a diode somewhere between the indicator lamp and the generator/alternator.
I don't know how a resistor will work in this case, but I do know that it works because my D9 is working with that kind of set-up. I was able to see a cement resistor and a wire-wound resistor up under its panel. I don't understand it, but what the heck, there is a lot I don't understand. I'll worry about it when it brakes.
 

Nope.....you're seeing it wrong.

The ammeter should be in the larger wire going to the alternator not where the lamp is in that diagram.

Connect the coil positive wire to the same terminal on the ignition switch that the lamp is connected to.

This WILL work garanteed. My Ferguson T0-20 and Massey Harris 33 are both wired exactly this way and they start, run and shut off normally.

I have wired many machines this exact way.
 
I went into town today, to do my bimonthly shopping. I visited three different Auto supply stores for an indicator lamp and came up zip. Returning, I decided to do something I should have done in the beginning. I mapped out the wires as they exist now.

<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto24403.png"/>
If I leave it wired as it is now, the motor will not turn off. If I switch the Gen + to the other side of the switch, the battery will be dead the next morning.
My problem is that the Generator/Alternator - (?) has only two wires – one positive the other, ground.

<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto24404.png"/>
Is this some kind of permanent magnet generator? Anyway, I will need to order the lamp on line before I give Hot Wrench's schematic a try. - or as best I can given the way my generator is wired.

One good note is that when I returned home, I found the MF switch was delivered and it does have the OFF ON ON configuration. I still want to try Hot Wrench's method just out of curiosity. I don't see how an indicator lamp will have any affect on my current problem, but I can't really say until I give it a try.
a196025.jpg
 

Whoops!! Hold up there now!

I was mistakenly under the impression that you were trying to use a Delco alternator which is what I gave a diagram for.

I should have asked for more information and you should have made clear what you were working with.

I'm not familiar with Motorola circuitry so just ignore what I have posted.
 
I appreciate your efforts to help me, Hot wrench - to all you folks. I should have mapped out that circuit first thing. I received the switch Hay hay hay recommended, yesterday; so I will install it as it has the right configuration.
Incidentally, I will make a greater effort to find my parts from this website in the future - when I looked this time, I didn't know exactly what I was looking for.
 
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