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Deere Still Standing - Why????

B

Bill VA

Well-known Member
It seems like with every other large industry that was one time massive in the 40's through the present, somewhere
along the way there was a bump in the road, bankruptcy, buyouts, mergers and all manner of strife that ultimately
took a company, once mighty, and reduced it to another owner or consolidation or worse! Sometimes their product
designs lingered and was continued (like MF tractors until recently) and other product designs were scuttled (like
A/C after the Deutz acquisition).

I suppose change is inevitable, but.....

How has John Deere managed to stay afloat, not file for bankruptcy, have it's assets plundered by a buyer, avoided a
hostile take-over and you can fill-in the blank for whatever reason a business falls prey failure?

GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION COMING: John Deere is just a tractor company, not some diverse conglomerate that makes
cars, trucks, computers - you name it in the name of diversification.

Maybe the answer is - they focused (and perhaps still do) on their core - tractors.

What are your thoughts on why John Deere is still standing?
 
I don't understand your assessment that DEERE is not diversified... they certainly make a lot more than tractors, and are involved in finance, electronics, etc. etc., in far-flung places of the earth, besides just making farm machinery in the USA.
 
Caterpillar is another one. There are also others (not tractor related) that have survives a long time but I can't remember them ?
 
From what I hear, Deere is on the verge of bankruptcy. Is it because nothing runs like a deere being chased by an eagle?
 
Maybe the question should be why has Deere survived longer? In 1984 rival International Harvester lost $200 million after a severe farm recession where new tractor sales were way down, deciding to sell out to Tenneco (Case). In the 70's Deere was smart by investing in R&D, manufacturing plants and good worker relations while IH was busy reaping profits from the sales boom but not taking care of the workforce -- then they went on strike.
 
Maybe because they stuck to one industry that they knew, and knew well. Probably had good finance people that management listened to.
 
i was told in quad cities that if it were not for the orange paint they would have been gone --the lease programs will get them in 3-5 years then the only co standing will be agco
 
My understanding is that Deere's financial arm ( namely insurance) kept them afloat through the 80s. They don't always put the Deere name on everything they are doing.
 
The biggest reason is financing. Specifically, they were able to offer financing on products where some of their competitors were not. This I have been told by former Ford and White dealers. IH was hamstrung on this by the 1980's.


Minimal labor difficulties. IH's 1979-1980 strike was very devastating. IH missed a very big year in agricultural by not being able to fully supply demand. I remember dealers going all over the state here trying to find 1086's and reportedly some dealers were hoarding them. Lot's of horse trading in general and picking and choosing what sales to make based on availability of product. I am not saying IH would have made it through the 1980's unscathed w/o the strike but maybe it might have had more strength to negotiate a reorganization versus going hat in hand to JI Case. Some talk was had of combining with Ford as Ford needed market share as badly as Case did. I don't know how that would have worked out or if this was just an educated guess by some.


Timely introduction of products.
1) JD D
2) JD A
3) JD 4010 then 4020
4) 1970's intro of 1209 and 336-346 hay tools
5) JD 7000 planter
6) 4X50 row crop tractors
There were other important product releases but I think these afore mentioned products were most important.
 
I recall reading in the Wall street Journal back in the 80s, when there was a huge shakeout in agriculture, that Deere & Co were also caught in a financial squeeze, but they just barely managed to survive without a forced re-organization.
 
One of the reasons is they are able to make Tractors all over the world and they have a loyal following that thinks they are all American made.
 
John Deere is a very well managed, diversified company. That is how they survived. And besides, John Deere is not just a brand it's a religion.
 
It also helps that John Deere does very little in terms of their own R&D saving them a bunch of money. If you look back they always waited until another company did the development and testing before they adopted the tech on their own equipment.

Last to offer live PTO, hydraulics and 3 point
Last to offer a full line of diesel tractors
Last to start making 4 and 6 cylinder tractors
Last to develop any form of Power Shift/TA
Last to start making a rotary combine
One of the last to offer FWA on their tractors
Definitely the last to develop the FOOT CLUTCH!
and the list goes on...

Saw a video on youtube a couple days ago of a Deere exhibit where they were releasing their new 2015 equipment and they rolled out their 9RT series four wheel drive track tractor onto the stage announcing it as "A new innovation from John Deere"..... False, how can it be an innovation if Case started building the Quad-Track 20 years ago?? Its all in how they market themselves. Lord knows it isnt quality or ease of maintenance because I have spent time wrenching on just about every color their is and green and yellow has to be about the biggest pain in the rear I have ever worked on.
 
Actually, JD was one of the first to experiment with a rotary combine. It was engineered on a model 55 combine frame. It might have come out much sooner but other efforts such as the 3010/4010 tractors ate valuable development money. It did not get much attention until the 1980's when budget was again a factor so Deere pushed for the 9000 series combines.
I don't that is was so much letting the others develop tractors as the Waterloo works while making the 2 cylinder tractors was easily the most profitable unit in the company. It has been talked about in books that the Waterloo plant manager had a lot of influence over the Deere board of directors. If Waterloo had different management who knows if the 2 cylinders would have run as long as they did.
 
Perhaps you need a history lesson. Deere was first in the industry with hydraulics. 1934, JD A power lift. First with a remote cylinder (2 way), 1945. I'm not sure about power steering, but definitely ahead of most (1954). Live PTO on row crops long before IH. 1952. When did Oliver have that? And Allis and MM had the halfA!@# ed PTO that sort of slipped something but really wasn't live...

And actually surpassed #1 IH in sales with those obsolete 2 cylinders. That were "hopelessly out of date." And set milestone fuel economy records.

First with ROPS.(1966) First with a nice cab. (1973)

Not so many lately, but back in the day, they were not last as you claim.
 
I fear that what made them is what will bring them down. That being their dealer network. They had a dealer in every little town. And you didn't have to go to the one nearest your farm,there were so many that you could drive right past one and go to another one a few miles away,and a lot of farmers did.
The powers that be think the religious worship of a brand will sustain their new business model. They see customers leaving as switching religion. It's just changing churches by going to another brand. Do you all go to the nearest church or do you drive past it and go to the one that suits you? The choice has been taken away now by the mega store,one name on 16 locations mentality. I realize other brands have done the same thing in some areas,but with Deere,it's systematic and apparently,worldwide.
The worst thing in the world to do to a farmer is tell us to take it or leave it and ask where else we're going to go? It might work once or twice,but when it's constant,and coming from somebody younger who hasn't been on the job very long,it's a sign of disrespect and we'll walk.
Like has already been said,it's not like they ever had a superior product,they just had dealers.
 
From what I have heard and am seeing up here they need a big improvement in service. This area is going from green to blue this year
 
Actually, Oliver had live PTO and hydraulics in 1949. While JD had those in 1952 it was just a very short time later that IH had them.


Like I said the Waterloo works was a profit leader and a great part of that was having a large following for its products. There are some on this board such as Leroy that was greatly disappointed when the 2 cylinders were discontinued.


First with the ROPS and put safety ahead of market share by letting the competition build ROPS for their tractors.
 
oliver you don't have that much to crow about. you must not ever put a tork in an IH like 1086 . takes about ever jack stand and hoist in the shop and 2 1/2 to 3 days work don/t tell me Deere is bad it is not true
 
I would imagine Ellen's and Ina Store are giddy about the sale of those two dealers to the chain store. A guy from Houghton Lake told me a few years ago that there was getting to be more and more red around there,and that was before the sale.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Lake City store close the doors before long.
 
Buying others inventions from way back and back engineering saves a lot of money. Let some one else do the r & d. Look at Fendt CVT, could have Case and Deere invented and perfected that in 2 years time? I think not.
 
I think that the writing is on the wall. Ellens has been busy this year and a large farm south of me has had green as far back as I can remember now his boys have went to blue. Ellens is building a new building just east of town. They are suppose to be in it this fall
 
Actually,Oliver patented the CVT transmission in the late 60's. There are silent movies somewhere of a prototype working. I've seen still photos from that film. White Motor Company was broke and milking the farm equipment lines for cash cows at the time,so nothing new that took a lot of new tooling went in to production. Even the White tractors,up until White Motors went belly up and new buyers took over the brand,were for the most part,just upgrades to existing products.
 
Good chance the ones around Big Rapids will go to Burnips too for blue if service goes in the toilet over there.
 
It took Ih another 2 years, at least. The MTA didn't come out til 54, and the 300 till 55.

Nobody had it all... Oliver still had a road gear of about 8 mph in 1949.
 
1970 series Case were first with real cab'It was certified roll proof at sticker weight--they were quietest at time--they had self sealing battery caps in event of roll over--air conditioner had self cleaning filter outside that cleaned as you shut door--windows were dsigned to pop outside in event of roll over.they had lot room inside. They were best in that time!
They lost standing when they hired a former stuborn john deer leader an kept him far too long.
Today john deer does have a remarkable advertising an sales thing ging for them.
Case ih today is missing a oppertunity by ignoring the fact that little girls an boys are subject to all kind of toys-clothe ect in stores with john deer logo on it.That is instilling john deer thoughts in them at a young age.
 
All of the tractor manufacturers made huge mistakes in the late 60's and 70's. None of them did adequate market research to help them build what the customers needed. AC did zero market research; they just built what they wanted to, some of it that no one wanted. Case and IH did the same. I thought at the time that JD had marketing research at the time but I learned it was very minimal and management paid no attention to their suggestions.

At the grass roots, AC had a few good district managers but factory support was lacking. Case and IH was notorious for having too many people in a district - and all of them were heavy drinkers. JD had a better district management group at the time that helped the dealers as best they could, although I knew some JD district managers that quit the company in disgust at what management did at the time. Now JD doesn't have a close relationship with the dealers to maintain sales. The mega dealers are dictating to the company and that very seldom turns out well.

Most of the tractor manufacturers stumbled around blindly looking for new markets when the farm equipment market went downhill. AC announced in one of our sales meetings that AC engines were being tested in some makes of over-the-road trucks. Within a few months, JD jumped into the same market. AC engines did pretty well but the truck manufacturers backed off. JD engines were a colossal failure in the big trucks. Later they put engines in some big motorhomes that also were failures. Then they underbid CAT to supply engines to the salmon fishing fleet in Alaska, that was a total disaster. The fleet previously ran CAT engines 24/7 during the salmon season; almost every JD engine failed in the fleet. Talk about a bunch of mad customers.

It's a wonder that any of the tractor manufacturers survived the past 50 years; the mistakes that they made back then put a serious crimp in all of them. Some good marketing research would have put them on a better path.

Somehow AGCO has survived even though they did many things that were contrary to building a good solid company in my experience. I don't know where they are now financially, but in the 80's and 90's those inside the company were very concerned with the debt of the company.

Time will tell how it all shakes out - - just be aware that changes are going to happen, sometimes real fast.
 
Nope, didnt have to replace a torque yet, but had to split a 1086 to replace a main input shaft in the trans that striped the splines 2 years ago, and even that only took a day and a half once we had the parts. Close enough.
 
My local Deere dealer is pathetic. Every time I drive by there are no customers! The only thing parked in the lot are a row of 200HP tractors sitting there rusting and whatever the employees drove in.
 
In 1947 the Oliver 60 and 70 both had a 15 MPH road gear and in 1948 when the Fleetlines came out the Road gear was 12.5-13 MPH depending on tire sizes so I dont know where you got that 8 MPH from.

Oliver was the first company to offer a 6 cylinder row crop tractor in 1935. Oliver first came out with a Live PTO in 1948 (although history will say that Cockshutt beat them to the market the company actually hired a couple engineers from Oliver and stole the design beating them to the market by a few months). Oliver started offering hydraulics in 1949 (which was also the industries first electric over hydraulic system). In 1950 they began offering a 3 point for all row crop tractors, as well as a choice of gas or diesel engine for every model in the line. Oliver was the first company to make a crawler on rubber tracks. They were the first company to offer FWA as a factory installed option . First to develop a steerable semi-mounted plow, as well as a hitch that would allow tractors with top-link draft control to pull a semi-mounted plow (on the subject of plows James Oliver had to fix John Deeres plow with a chilling process). First company to develop a true CVT transmission (until White came into the picture a shut the project down).
 
It's simple to many guys are brainwashed at birth that they have to run Green tin and yellow wheels for tractors and combines just because dad does or grandpa did. The guys I custom feed hogs for "Told" me a month ago I had to pretty well go buy a Deere loader tractor to do the chores with or i was not getting more hogs in.
They got "Told' If I wanted a Deere tractor It would be here now, I could buy 2 valtras for the same money as a worn out Deere, with twice the hours on. and still fix it my self if it went wrong. And not spending $120 an hour in the dealers shop for most things that need fixing.
They Kinda went off the Idea when i said i would quit hogs before buying a Deere. They can't find anybody else to custom feed or sell 4000 hogs a year to L.O.L.
Regards Robert
 
Dang it. I was hoping to find an article from about 1983 about the state of the industry and the speculation about various companies paring up but cannot find it. It talked about AC and NH coming together. IH and Ford. I can't remember how that was suppose to work. I think it centered on IH's high hp tractors and tools. Ford providing under 100 hp tractors and industrial units. Some mention was made on a Ford-NH team up. I don't remember what was said about Case anymore. I think the tone was Case only really cared about the industrial division. Before anybody gets mad it was a speculative article but written by somebody familiar with the farm equipment industry.
 
I worked for a john Deere Des Moines works for 33 years. The reason they are still in business and haven't been bought out by someone else is because they are a well managed company. They used to carry their own health ins.on their employees but they sold their ins. to United Health Care in the early ninetys.They put a lot of money into research and development when their competitors did not. They never had the massive recalls that some of the others did. Quality is their number one priority, I was a weldor most of my time there and all of the weldments were inspected 100 percent.
 
Funny how everyone's version of history is a little different depending on what brand you are partial to. Note that a hydrostat or torque converter is not even close to the same thing as current Deere or Fendt IVT or CVT (which are completely different from each other). There was a steam engine built with front wheel drive in the 1900s. There were several tractors with CVTs in the 1920s, like an Avery or Heider.

I think Allis Chalmers was probably the most innovative company: Rubber tires, snap coupler system, including draft control on the drawbar, power adjust wheels, high power/low weight, independent PTO, round baler, etc.
 
I know there was talk in the mid to late 50's,about a merger between Case and Oliver. I don't remember anymore why nothing came of it.
 
Why drive to my Deere dealer (15 miles) when he drops parts daily for a 2-3 dollar surcharge? I can't drive my pickup 30 miles round trip for that. Why drive to my dealer when the salesman calls on me at the farm. I have not bought anything new in a long time and the newest Deere product other than the lawnmower is 1999. I can't get the CaseIH guy to stop by. My relationship with the NH dealer is complex but the bottom line is the salesman does not stop even if it is to leave a brochure or flier.
 
Nobody is talking about a hydro or a torque converter. Oliver patented the gear driven CVT transmission,that's just the way it is. Their Over/Under HydraulShift was a torque set up and was separate from the transmission. This CVT was a totally different animal from that.
There was a totally new tractor on the drawing board that would have used that transmission. A few castings were poured for prototypes,but as has been stated,White Motors scuttled the whole project because they didn't have the money to follow through. It was installed and tested in a four digit Oliver though.
 
It's surprising how little people know about capitalism.
There is only ONE reason but it encompasses all the answers about brand loyalty, R&D, dealer networks, quality, good management, customer satisfaction or whatever.
Deere is still in business because they still pay dividends to their stock holders.
 
From riding behind my neighbor's diesel 77. You don't want to be behind it! I can pass it, and have, on a JD two cylinder. Did they have different gearing????
 
Oliver had 2 different ring and pinion options, a low speed and a high speed. Most tractors have the high speed, but if the guys bought the tractors with heavy tillage in mind thats when you tended to find the low speed for more lugging power, we have a Super 88 Diesel thats the same way and the original owner bought it that way because he did all his heavy tillage with it. I can run circles around my friends JD B with my Oliver 66 all day long.
 
I think you'd better check your facts. Cockshutt was the first with independent live PTO. Others soon followed suit. If you want to pick Deere apart just look at their literature. They make it sound good but it ain't so.
 
IHC was a abundant company. My Dad was invited in the 50 s to a meeting. All the company
guys walked around with big cigars. In 1984 they were in all the papers. 400 million
NEGATIVE net worth. JD was more conservative. Chuck
 
By the time the New Generation came out in 1961 the entire Deere fleet had diesel as either the only option or one of a few options for each model. The Ford 600 lasted until 1962 and I don't recall a diesel option. The MM 335 was made after 1961 and I don't recall a diesel for that either. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
 
You need to get some facts straight if you are going to bash JD. JD had live PTO in 1949 on the R and so they weren't that last by a long shot. The 1934 A used hydraulic powerlift and starting in late 1945 As and Bs had the option of hydraulics to run a remote cylinder. The H had that option in staring in 1941. JD might have been last on a on the go shifting but they were I believe only 2nd behind Ford to develop a full powershift.
 
That has NOTHING to do with abundant, the management was greedy and did not put the company first.
 
Which facts?

I only said Deere beat IH with the live PTO thing, not everyone. I did know Cockshutt was first. Deere, too, had live PTO in 1949, but only on the R.

Were there others that you felt were incorrect????
 
Lets face it guys. Deere is the best and first with everything and if you don't believe me just ask them. Worked for Deere dealer for four years and heard about it most every day.
 
Actually the John Deere R came out in 1949 WITH live PTO. And to oliverkid was Oliver also the first to have full pressure engine oiling system with full flow oil filtering. No they weren't, they were decades behind Deere in that. When did Oliver surpass Deere in great braking, of course Deere never didn't catch up with Oliver in cracked blocks and heads. And then on to resale value of the line. John Deere spent more money on R&d more years than did the combined R&d of all the rest of the US tractor manufacturers. You really like rewriting history. what survives or Oliver today since they were hands down the best in your opinion. I will admit today that John Deere is trying hard to self destruct with their mega store mandate which has given way to very lousy service and not stocking parts for popular models. We used to be nearly all Deere but have taken a great dislike to this new breed of business "experts" running deere, they have a good product but the last five tractors here have been fendts. The local fendt dealer is a one location dealer with superior service to deere that Deere will likely never have again. A lot of college mentality is working overtime at destroying what was once strong caring businesses.
 
There smart, some JD got in with NYRA and NYTB, They always had Ford tractors in the 80s painted red now they are using all JD tractors, In green paint not even painted red for NYRA New York Race Association! John Deere is the only tractor/equipment advertised in this publication, every month. I guess it's good marketing, or politics! Lol
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Agree with our first sentence 100%. Heider was the most notable using the friction drive. I've read stories of farmers have to throw dirt on the discs to get them to grab. I think some of those gas or steam tractors had power steering too.
 
Pretty much correct. Duke Rowland and the marketing department wanted to stick with the 2 cylinders. The engineers and some of the upper management including Charles Deere Wiman wanted change. Compromise was reach. The 2 cylinders would be updated to remain competitive and work would start in the developing a new line of tractors. It was a brilliant decision because updating the 2 cylinders kept them in the battle and even allowed them to get the No 1 spot in the late 50s. The NG lineup kept JD in the No 1 spot.
 
No matter whether you like them or not. A person can go to a John Deere dealer and buy all the equipment to put in a crop and harvest one. We have Oliver Allis Kubota and John Deere. Bottom line the John Deeres are built just a little better. New Jd 5 yrs ago abosolutily no issues. I consider myself a All is. Guy!
 
That is what hurts Agco in my area little. I can go to either my CNH or JD dealer and get a full line up of tractors, air drills, combines, hay equipment, and sprayers all the same color. And with that they can offer discounts. If I go to my Agco dealer, I have to settle for a Versatile 4 wheel drive tractor, whatever Agco calls their smaller 100-150 hp tractors, Morris air drill, a Hesston/MF lineup, either Gleaner or Massey combine, and whatever sprayer Versatile and Agco offers.
 
I wonder that myself with their attitude. I bought a 2210 tractor and had to give it back because it was defective and the dealer and the company wasn't interested in making it right.
 
Deere is still Deere because they have never been first to the plate with anything. They're always cautious to not be the first to blow big dollars on innovation. They milk their technology to the end of it's relevance. They're generally good at building good quality equipment and supporting it effectively because they've generally managed their fundamentals well rather than squandering assets on wild eyed schemes... but there is nothing remarkable about Deere in any other way.
But to counter your other point, they are quite a large, diverse company. Much like Cat, they also have a LARGE foot print in the construction equipment market and that in some measure probably smooths out the bumps in the ag sector. None of the others had that on the same scale so as to be meaningful.

Rod
 
MM and Oliver were about the same time with the FWA. MM had a front wheel drive proto type in 1959 on the 5 Star, but was first offered on the M5 models right after.
 
MM had the Jet Star, 4 Star, M5, and GVI models in 1959-1960 that I believe were offered with a diesel option. You are correct the 335 wasn't offered in a diesel.
 
I remember hearing that JD nearly went broke hanging on to the two cylinder engine design. Im not a big JD fan but they really pulled themselves up with the new generation tractors. I think a lot of why they are still here is the name. That carries a lot of weight.
 
"I think Allis Chalmers was probably the most innovative company: Rubber tires, snap coupler system, including draft control on the drawbar, power adjust wheels, high power/low weight, independent PTO, round baler, etc. "

NOT to start a flaming brand war, but "innovation" doesn't matter much if the tractors were not tough/reliable/bulletproof.
 
>Deere is still in business because they still pay dividends to their stock holders.

UD, this may come as a shock to you, but General Motors Corporation, which reliably paid dividends for decades, declared bankruptcy in 2009. GM paid dividends almost up to the bitter end, all the way until June 2008, even during years when it had colossal losses. Paying dividends in no way guarantees the long-term survival of a company. Turning a profit is a lot more important than paying a dividend.
 
lots of good posts.
most simply, it's just the name and the green.
So ingrained in our culture, it gets amazing sometimes.
ask anyone...anywhere...What's a John Deere? they will know...

see it both old and new.
buying old tractors...let's say 15-50hp range.
at each level, basically clones from different manufacturers.
the Deere will cost double..

New..non-farmer buyer looking at new tractors.
comparing all colors....(and new..they [i:2d7fde3c1a]are[/i:2d7fde3c1a] clones today)
Most pick Green, even pay more to do it.

When I bought a new Orange tractor, I swung by the Deere dealer to check out theirs with the same specs. $5k more.
Salesman (honest friend who knew I wouldn't buy at that price) told me I'd be happy with the orange one...good tractors he said.
But he said that people want that Deere name on the hood and he'd be fine without my sale.
(his tractor was nice too.....and the Name...I [i:2d7fde3c1a]did[/i:2d7fde3c1a] want it..LOL)
 
Actually IH was bigger and financially more secure than John Deere in early 1970s. In the late 1970s and early 1980s IH rolled out many innovative designs (air planters, axial flow combines) but the 86 series tractor was without a true powershift transmission was a mistake.

The biggest issue with IH was the fact they hired a guy that ran a little copy machine company to run the 3rd largest corporation on earth during one of the most stressful economic periods for agriculture.
 
I believe the 4010 was first on the market with power brakes and syncronized shift. The 730 was first with dual speed PTO. The first (50/60) with factory power steering. The first with a full powershift transmission coupled with MFWD.
 
Don't forget the roll-a-matic front end on narrow wheeled tractors, rack and pinion adjustable rear axle,hydraulic powered seat.
If you say that the 'name' sells, then ask yourself why that happens---there must be something good attatched to the name. Remember, your president (Lincoln) said "....you can't fool all of the people all of the time..." So,buyers are cbviously not being 'fooled' just because it says Deere on the side

Ben
 
(quoted from post at 15:34:33 06/17/15) It also helps that John Deere does very little in terms of their own R&D saving them a bunch of money. If you look back they always waited until another company did the development and testing before they adopted the tech on their own equipment.

Last to offer live PTO, hydraulics and 3 point
Last to offer a full line of diesel tractors
Last to start making 4 and 6 cylinder tractors
Last to develop any form of Power Shift/TA
Last to start making a rotary combine
One of the last to offer FWA on their tractors
Definitely the last to develop the FOOT CLUTCH!
and the list goes on...

Saw a video on youtube a couple days ago of a Deere exhibit where they were releasing their new 2015 equipment and they rolled out their 9RT series four wheel drive track tractor onto the stage announcing it as "A new innovation from John Deere"..... False, how can it be an innovation if Case started building the Quad-Track 20 years ago?? Its all in how they market themselves. Lord knows it isnt quality or ease of maintenance because I have spent time wrenching on just about every color their is and green and yellow has to be about the biggest pain in the rear I have ever worked on.
Click to expand...

Really? Everyone else has live hydraulics and PTO in 1948?

Rick
 
IH may have been more secure but had far more turmoil with stock holders and top management. I know this from talking to two people that were highly placed in IH or was related to someone who was. During the 1960's management was becoming increasingly divided over the direction of the company. There were quite a few that wanted the main emphasis on trucks and they got their wish in 1984 when Navistar was born. Deere stockholders and management were pretty unified about the future of Deere.


The 86 series tractors were not perfect but I think a first rate MFWD would have put a different light on them. The drive shaft out to the left versus the centerline just dampened enthusiasm then White expanded on their successful version with the 2-135 and 2-155.


The planters and combines were innovative but they both needed updates rather soon to remain competitive. I would argue though a smaller market segment that the 720 forage harvester and the 56 blower were more successful additions. The same with the 1190 m-c.


McCardell was from Xerox but he was not the only outsider to join a new industry. Increasingly the thought was to bring somebody in that might have a different take on an organization. His biggest negative was an itch to beat down the UAW as he had never seen terse labor relations at places such as Xerox. My father in-law work for Xerox during the McCardell years among others and while McCardell had faults he was far from the worst CEO for Xerox.
 
(quoted from post at 13:16:15 06/17/15) From what I hear, Deere is on the verge of bankruptcy. Is it because nothing runs like a deere being chased by an eagle?
Click to expand...

Eagle? What eagle? Surly not that one that was run over years ago now? I just checked the status of JD and they are not in danger of failing any time real soon. Yes sales are down but that reflects demand. AGCO sales are down too. In fact AGCO is more in danger of failing than Deere is right now and that's because of a very spotty dealer network. Large areas where AGCO has no presence at all. Don't get the idea that I'm a big JD fan, I'm not. I own a JD pull type combine and a poo spreader. But given the choice, new or used I'd buy JD before I bought anything supported buy AGCO.

Rick
 
Deere borrows billions of dollars at very low interest rates to finance sales of their equipment. Usually at very attractive rates to buyers. How long have they been doing this? I don't know . But, I do know that our next door neighbor needed a new tractor in 1936. His old Fordson was all worn out. After being turned down for a loan by the Bank, he went to the Deere dealer and explained his situation. He and the dealer determined he needed an A. Dealer suggested a JD 2-14 plow to go with it. All the dealer needed for a down payment was the old Fordson with it's Oliver 2-12 plow. Deal done. Neighbor paid for that tractor and plow and, as near as I can remember, 4 more John Deere tractors, several plows, mowers, planters, Van Brunt drill, JD combine, balers, choppers, and many other pieces of equipment. All John Deere from that same dealer. And it all started because he needed a loan for that first tractor and plow.
 
100 percent accurate statement as to why other manufacturers lost business that Deere ultimately picked up. I remember White dealers and Ford dealers that I knew or had people affiliated that I knew and the sale was always lost at the financing stage if it was lost at all. Ford dealers were very worried about NH being bought by Ford if Ford put their own "touch" on NH which ultimately did not happen. Anyways, for many years IH was strong but not as strong as Deere and AC was very adept at working out financing.
 
He was just fine for Xerox, but there is a huge difference between running a company that markets office products and a company that sells ag products. If nothing else the competition alone - who competed against Xerox in the 1970s and who competed against IH in the 1970s? Xerox had so much market share the act of making a copy was for years known as Xeroxing, IH enjoyed no such dominance.

His inability to deal with organized labor in a company tied to organized labor was the second issue.

The third issue was his inability to recognize that farmers didn't rotate machinery like office products. When money got expensive (20%+ interest rates) large ticket items sat on the shelf in the ag industry. Instead of taking advantage of IH's low inventories after the strike IH went into full bore production and had new 3 year old tractors on dealers lots in 1985. The company built this inventory on borrowed money. Pay 20% interest on billions of dollars of inventory that sits for years and see how long you last.
 
IH was in a bad way after the strike no matter how you look at it. They had to generate revenue for what was lost during the strike but had the misfortune to try and come back during a recession for both ag and trucking. I still maintain the biggest problem based on people I knew that were connected to IH corporate was divided management on the future of the company. This affects R&D among other things. Many stockholders and executives were downright jubelent in shedding the ag division in 1984. My understanding was that the board meetings were downright nasty during the 1960's and 1970's if the ag division had a poor year sales-wise.
 
I don't have a way to confirm this but my understanding was the IH engineers at the Farmall plant were aching to develop their own full powershift by the late 1960's but could not get the money appropriated by management. The go ahead happened in the early 1980's and was culminated in the Magnum tractors in 1987. Given the Deere New Generation tractors cost tens of millions of dollars to develop during the 1950's it would have cost IH 15 to 20 million to develop a new transmission but not do anything significant with any other part of the tractor.
 
(quoted from post at 23:32:19 06/17/15) "I think Allis Chalmers was probably the most innovative company: Rubber tires, snap coupler system, including draft control on the drawbar, power adjust wheels, high power/low weight, independent PTO, round baler, etc. "

NOT to start a flaming brand war, but "innovation" doesn't matter much if the tractors were not tough/reliable/bulletproof.
Click to expand...

Bob, yer being nice.

The Snap Coupler system was a total failure. What's on new tractors today? So if it isn't available new it failed same as the IH Fast Hitch. And Ford beat AC to the punch with draft control on the 1948 8N. The ROTO Baler while it did make round bales didn't make large round bales. So that's all AC fans trying to claim that AC was great. Heck Cat beat em with a turbo farm tractor by about 6 years too because they built some crawlers for the AG market and they had live PTO not independent. Independent means that the clutch doesn't have to be engaged for the PTO to work. AC didn't go to IPTO until sometime in the 70's and JD had IPTO and live hydraulics as early as 1948 and I believe that they were not the first with IPTO. But you did nail it on reliability and durability.

Rick
 
[i:654c4848f0]"Paying dividends in no way guarantees the long-term survival of a company."[/i:654c4848f0]

Did you say that?
I didn't say or imply that.

[i:654c4848f0]"Turning a profit is a lot more important than paying a dividend. "[/i:654c4848f0]

Without a profit there are no dividends.
Without dividends there are no investors.
Without investors there is no company.
Except...
When the US comes in to bail out all their lefty, union buddies.
 
Another comment on the inventory issue you raised. I can't speak as to where you live but the local IH dealer lots in late 1980 and early 1981 were fairly empty compared to prior to the strike. Add to that that quite a number of area Case and Deere dealer were stocking at pre-1980 grain embargo levels and that quite a few farmers still bought on impulse meant these dealers were screaming at their territory reps to get product in. I am sure from a dealer management standpoint they would have loved to keep inventory down in the early 1980's but if a guy comes in needing to do something on a down tractor, manure spreader, baler, etc.. and is known to be impulsive than you have to be prepared to make the sale based on having product in stock.
 
WOW!!!!!

Lots of comments - many thanks!

A few thoughts I had with regard to green JD fever is this:

I can see how a homeowner or even a hobby farmer (no disrespect implied) can have their eyes glaze over when they see JD green and make a purchase. I know last year when I bought my new JD utility tractor, I bought the 2nd lowest price machine they made, 2 wheel drive - no frills, but neighbors and friends thought I was buying the best of the best - just because it was JD. That wasn't my motivation to buy. What I did was only look at major mfg's like JD, MF and NH/CaseIH as I wanted an established brand and dealer network long term. Around my neck of the woods, to many Kioti/Mahandra dealers have popped-up and are gone in a few years - nothing against their tractors though. I made a chart - listed the things I needed/wanted and in the end JD won-out.

I should think that once you get into the realm of farming beyond hobby or mowing the lawn, most buyers would be color blind just because of the economics of farming and making a profit.

But having said that - in my small mickey mouse operation and family purchase history, our most reliable equipment has been JD. My JD 3 pt rake is trouble free - knock on wood, seems to work every-time. We've had JD riding mowers - long life out of them - great resale. The fellow I use to help bought new a 24T baler and used it for many years - trouble free machine and reliable too. I have family that are "real" farmers and they use JD tractors for the most part. All of that is probably applicable to MF, IH and other brand/owners too. But when I consider another baler (maybe new one of these days) I reflect on the old 24T, my own 14T I had one time and the new 328/238 balers and find it hard to consider something else - though an inline baler really interests me. Same with other equipment.

I have to believe if you are a real farmer and you have a history with JD and a good one, including a good dealer - you are likely going to go back to them again and again. But maybe not.

With respect to financing. It seems to me like I read or was told that during the depression, farmers who had bought JD tractors on JD credit - many were unable to repay due to the depression. Don't know if this is true - but so it goes that JD told the dealers not to reposes the tractors as if they did, they wouldn't be able to sell them anyway. Let the farmer take as long a necessary to repay - and most all eventually repaid JD for their tractors AND when the time came to buy another one - JD was the brand they choose out of loyalty.

Interesting topic - thanks again for everyone's replies.

Bill
 
>>"Paying dividends in no way guarantees the long-term survival of a company."

>Did you say that? I didn't say or imply that.

Oh yes you did. You said, and I quote: "Deere is still in business because they still pay dividends to their stock holders." Or should I not take your statements literally?

>Without a profit there are no dividends.
>Without dividends there are no investors.
>Without investors there is no company.

Not true on the first two counts, although I'll grant you the third point. There are many unprofitable or marginally profitable companies (such as the previously mentioned GM) that pay dividends. Whether or not to pay dividends is up to the board of directors, and they can and will pay dividends when there is no profit. This of course just starves the company of desperately-needed cash. As for there being no investors without dividends, that's an obvious, easily disproven falsehood. Apple, Amazon and Berkshire Hathaway, to name a few, have no trouble attracting investors even though they pay no dividends.

>Except...
>When the US comes in to bail out all their lefty, union buddies.

Corporations in the twenty-first century have less to fear from Bolsheviks than they do from the corporate raiders who specialize in eviscerating healthy companies, sucking out their assets then leaving them saddled with massive debt. As a matter of fact, one of these so-called capitalists, after making a gazillion dollars gutting healthy companies, ran unsuccessfully for president in 2012. It seems the American people prefer marxists to robber barons.
 
First off never once did I imply that I thought Oliver was far superior to any other brand. I didnt even bring Oliver into the conversation until Minnie up there apparently saw my username and thought "Oh man, he has Oliver in his name, he is only here to bash Deere" which wasnt the case at all. I have spent plenty of seat time in Deeres and I enjoy driving them. My friends 3010 Diesel and my old Bosses 4455 FWA were two of my favorite tractors to drive just because they were fun to operate, just not fun to work on. I was just trying to point out that Deere never really tried to be innovative and put out new designs like the other manufacturers were doing at the time, and that is one reason they are still around. That being said, yes I am partial to Oliver because my grandfather worked at the South Bend Plant and we still farm with Oliver's and yes I do think they had a few things that were better than Deere, but I left that out of the conversation until somebody else made it a Deere vs. Everyone else fight.

Second, the only 2 Olivers with a serious reputation for engines was the 18/1955 and that was Whites screw up not Olivers. Oliver had a whole new series of tractors designed from the ground up that were supposed to become the 55 series tractors. They were going to have a planetary CVT transmission and a new series of engines that were up over 400 cubes like a 100 horse and up tractor should have. Farmers had seen the test tractors working on farms and Oliver had standing orders for the new generation tractors then Sam White and his crew stepped in and scrapped the whole project and instead chose to basically keep the 50 series tractors (which had already been maxed out) with a few upgrades and turn the screw a little harder leading to engine failures and in turn leading to the bad reputation of the 310 Waukesha. What killed Oliver, Moline and Cockshutt was the same thing that killed IH, management that had no clue and didnt care.
 
You are a goof ball Mark.
And you need to learn to read better without inserting your own prejudices and misconceptions in between the lines.
 
Oliverkid,OLIVER was bankrupt in the late 50s and went on the AUCTION block and was bought by White in 1960, so any thing after that was bankrolled by White,so people quit saying everything Oliver did was good and White was bad because THERE WAS NO OLIVER tractor company after 1960.As far as JD,they built their business on their tools more so then their tractors from the 30s up.Other then some bad bo-bos on the smaller New-Gen tractors in 1961,they caught everyone else flatfooted and asleep at the wheel and never looked back while the others floundered trying to catch up.AS far as the Mega dealer thing,every body has them(some good some maybe bad)our DEERE(8) and CIH(6&6) ones are still partly owned(run) by on site people and if one doesn't have a part,another one will and have it to you the same or next day or will discount for you to go get if true emergency.No I don't truly like it but it is the new wave,Auto and Ag.
 
John Deere got to where they are at today because any town of 900 population or higher HAD a John Deere dealer. Farmers did not drive 70 miles to find a implement dealer. They drove into the nearest town and bought a tractor from there local dealer. In most towns that was John Deere.

Between Dad,myself,grandpa T and grandpa H, We have had, five farmalls, three JD's,two Olivers,one Case,and one Allis

The Three tractors with cabs, a Case 970,JD 4430, and Oliver 1855 with Hiniker cab.

I would rate the cabs,

Oliver #1 JD #2 and Case #3

Rating the Hydraulics and 3pts. I would rate our, Oliver #1, IH #2, JD #3.

Rating the power steering JD,Case,Oliver tied for 1st, IH last.

rating how the transmissions worked, Oliver #1 Case #2 JD#3, IH #4.

IHC was number one in the 30's and 40's for tractor sales. Most John deere guys won't admit it.

John Deere can stamp their name on the cheapest made in China socket set and the John Deere guys will eat it up. It has to be better because it says "John Deere".

I have also been around a lot of Deere lawn mowers. The models 56,66,and 86 were complete junk. Not far behind was the model 111.
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:14 06/19/15) John Deere got to where they are at today because any town of 900 population or higher HAD a John Deere dealer. Farmers did not drive 70 miles to find a implement dealer. They drove into the nearest town and bought a tractor from there local dealer. In most towns that was John Deere.

Between Dad,myself,grandpa T and grandpa H, We have had, five farmalls, three JD's,two Olivers,one Case,and one Allis

The Three tractors with cabs, a Case 970,JD 4430, and Oliver 1855 with Hiniker cab.

I would rate the cabs,

Oliver #1 JD #2 and Case #3

Rating the Hydraulics and 3pts. I would rate our, Oliver #1, IH #2, JD #3.

Rating the power steering JD,Case,Oliver tied for 1st, IH last.

rating how the transmissions worked, Oliver #1 Case #2 JD#3, IH #4.

IHC was number one in the 30's and 40's for tractor sales. Most John deere guys won't admit it.

John Deere can stamp their name on the cheapest made in China socket set and the John Deere guys will eat it up. It has to be better because it says "John Deere".

I have also been around a lot of Deere lawn mowers. The models 56,66,and 86 were complete junk. Not far behind was the model 111.
Click to expand...
900 population? IH, AC, Ford and JD had dealers in towns a lot smaller than that. It had more to do with the number of farmers in a certain square mile radius of a town and competition.

Rick
 
Oliver wasnt bankrupt and it didnt go on the auction block. White acquired Oliver through a corporate takeover when it gained majority control of 51% of the company on November 1 1960. White then bought Cockshutt in 1962 and Moline in 1963. White did away with Cockshutt replacing them with Oliver tractors as everybody knows. However Oliver and Moline continued to operate as fairly separate entities until 1969 when White began merging the 2 tractor lines. Both companies continued seperate R&D and maintained separate Dealer networks so yes even though White was pocketing the money, No Oliver did not cease to exist after the 1960 takeover.
 
(quoted from post at 19:55:42 06/19/15) Oliver wasnt bankrupt and it didnt go on the auction block. White acquired Oliver through a corporate takeover when it gained majority control of 51% of the company on November 1 1960. White then bought Cockshutt in 1962 and Moline in 1963. White did away with Cockshutt replacing them with Oliver tractors as everybody knows. However Oliver and Moline continued to operate as fairly separate entities until 1969 when White began merging the 2 tractor lines. Both companies continued seperate R&D and maintained separate Dealer networks so yes even though White was pocketing the money, No Oliver did not cease to exist after the 1960 takeover.
Click to expand...

Yea really they did just like CaseIH is really FIAT along with New Holland. Chrysler/Ram is just another FIAT under a different badge. That's who owns them.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 14:41:39 06/18/15) WOW!!!!!

Lots of comments - many thanks!

A few thoughts I had with regard to green JD fever is this:

I can see how a homeowner or even a hobby farmer (no disrespect implied) can have their eyes glaze over when they see JD green and make a purchase. I know last year when I bought my new JD utility tractor, I bought the 2nd lowest price machine they made, 2 wheel drive - no frills, but neighbors and friends thought I was buying the best of the best - just because it was JD. That wasn't my motivation to buy. What I did was only look at major mfg's like JD, MF and NH/CaseIH as I wanted an established brand and dealer network long term. Around my neck of the woods, to many Kioti/Mahandra dealers have popped-up and are gone in a few years - nothing against their tractors though. I made a chart - listed the things I needed/wanted and in the end JD won-out.

I should think that once you get into the realm of farming beyond hobby or mowing the lawn, most buyers would be color blind just because of the economics of farming and making a profit.

But having said that - in my small mickey mouse operation and family purchase history, our most reliable equipment has been JD. My JD 3 pt rake is trouble free - knock on wood, seems to work every-time. We've had JD riding mowers - long life out of them - great resale. The fellow I use to help bought new a 24T baler and used it for many years - trouble free machine and reliable too. I have family that are "real" farmers and they use JD tractors for the most part. All of that is probably applicable to MF, IH and other brand/owners too. But when I consider another baler (maybe new one of these days) I reflect on the old 24T, my own 14T I had one time and the new 328/238 balers and find it hard to consider something else - though an inline baler really interests me. Same with other equipment.

I have to believe if you are a real farmer and you have a history with JD and a good one, including a good dealer - you are likely going to go back to them again and again. But maybe not.

With respect to financing. It seems to me like I read or was told that during the depression, farmers who had bought JD tractors on JD credit - many were unable to repay due to the depression. Don't know if this is true - but so it goes that JD told the dealers not to reposes the tractors as if they did, they wouldn't be able to sell them anyway. Let the farmer take as long a necessary to repay - and most all eventually repaid JD for their tractors AND when the time came to buy another one - JD was the brand they choose out of loyalty.

Interesting topic - thanks again for everyone's replies.

Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, I'd say you are wrong. I know guys who have everything JD regardless of who has the best product and they sit in the coffee shop bragging about having "Nuthin' but green". And some of these guys are farming thousands of acres. My nephew worked for one. He bought/leased (don't know for sure) 2 of the tracked ones when they had been out about 2 years. Because of slippage problems between the drives and tracks in wet conditions they went back to the dealer the next spring and were replaced with JD 4X4's. He even says that the CaseIH combines are better machines but refuses to use anything but JD. Here we are well represented by CaseIH through Titan and JD with RDO. Both have good sales and service with top notch parts departments. Both in the same town.

Just my observations.

Rick
 
You're right that most small towns in farming areas had JD dealers but they also had "all the rest". Our small town had Massey Harris and Case right on main street and Ford and John Deere in the block off main street. Minneapolis-Moline just up the street. Farmall over by the county highway shops, Allis Chalmers on the northeast side of town, etc. Oliver was in a small town 7 miles away but that town of about 900 also had a Farmall dealer. Two Farmall dealers doing a land office business within 7 miles of each other. Allis Chalmers was popular because of price. Some didn't like JDs two cylinders and all the hand controls, some did. Some wouldn't have anything but a red H or M, sometimes both. Cheap little Ns did fine on flat, sandy farms. John Deere offered a full line of mostly good equipment and some superb equipment and fairly easy to finance. Made a big difference to those short on cash but who were good payers. They were JDs best customers. And lets face it, most farmers were a little short on cash most of the time. We only bought JD equipment when it was clearly superior to anything else out there. And my grandfather and father always paid cash. As do I.
 
(quoted from post at 05:06:44 06/20/15) And my grandfather and father always paid cash. As do I.
Click to expand...

Good way to go.

My dad had one JD tractor, an R JD that he used right up to his retirement in the early 80's. Had an artificial left leg so he loved the hand controls. I much preferred the 4020's and 4440's I had operated. They still had nothing on a tank! :D

Rick
 
Oliverkid,yes I said it too simple with the words I used.I was never involved in the businesses,but the family was(owned or managed) from 1935 till 2000 with 3 different brands.So I got to meet and get to know a lot of Blockmen and service reps. and hear the company war stories.Oliver was getting into serious money troubles by late 50s-early 60s and was looking for a savior and in comes WHITE and we know the rest.Maybe someone else would have came in,but White did. and so became a WHITE Company and nolonger was the Oliver Company,like FNH,CIH and Dodge Ram are now FIAT companys.
 
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