Ok boys , I'm working on an H that had sat indoors for years . it runs but with a HORRIBLE miss . I had the carb professionly rebuilt , I also rebuilt the govener, I have replaced the points , condenser , plugs , cap , rotor and wires . Still it runs like a 3 legged dog . So this week I pulled the head off and found nothing wrong with the head nor valves . Is it possible for the distributor to have been installed wrong ? Would it still run ? I have gone over the firing order a million times .. Any thoughts would be appreciated
- Thread starter Briancf
- Start date
Allan in NE
Well-known Member
Very first order of business should have been a compression test to see if you have wind on all four.
Allan
Allan
Michael Soldan
Well-known Member
A bad gasket on the intake will cause your symtoms. Start the H , let it idle and hold a propane tip around the manifold(unlit),if the idle smooths out its a gasket
TomH in PA
Well-known Member
Have you tried pulling one wire at a time to see if it's always one cylinder that's missing?
Compression test!!! Next start it, take an inferred digital theremometer and check temp on each cylinder exhaust (or pull plug wires) Valve springs can cause this or stuck lifters, bent push rods too. Centrifical advance in mag or distributor (usully will idel ok but won't rev up if stuck. Hole or leak in intake besides gasket. Just some thoughts
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Cylinder one is at the radiator. The firing order is 1342. The distributor cap wire position is (looking from rear) is:
2-1
4-3
If this is correct on yours, and the cap and wires are great, the valve adjustment might be too tight. Jim
2-1
4-3
If this is correct on yours, and the cap and wires are great, the valve adjustment might be too tight. Jim
Goose
Well-known Member
If it's any consolation, I have an H that's doing the same thing. Just doesn't run as smooth as it should.
I've done just about everything you have, except pull the head, either replacing parts or borrowing parts from another H that does run like it should. I did check the valve lash.
A buddy of mine suggested a vacuum leak about the same time I thought of it. I've ordered new manifold gaskets from YT, so that's my next step. I may go ahead and pull the manifold this afternoon to see what I can see.
The odd thing is, it sat outside for several months over winter, and when I went to move it a week or so ago it started right up and ran fine for several minutes before it went back to its old ways. Could dirt have temporarily plugged a manifold gasket leak?
I've done just about everything you have, except pull the head, either replacing parts or borrowing parts from another H that does run like it should. I did check the valve lash.
A buddy of mine suggested a vacuum leak about the same time I thought of it. I've ordered new manifold gaskets from YT, so that's my next step. I may go ahead and pull the manifold this afternoon to see what I can see.
The odd thing is, it sat outside for several months over winter, and when I went to move it a week or so ago it started right up and ran fine for several minutes before it went back to its old ways. Could dirt have temporarily plugged a manifold gasket leak?
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Pull each plug wire off just a little distance (1/4 inch) with a insulated pliers while running. If it picks up and runs well with one of the wires held away a little, it is a bad plug, and it could be that that cylinder is getting excess oil flow past the rings or valve guides. Jim
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
If it sat very long at all good chance you have sticking ring on the piston so low compression. First thing I would have done before even turning the engine over for the first time was fill the cylinders with ATF to lube and free up sticking rings
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
If the distributor was turned wrong, the timing
would have been wrong across the board, not
favoring one cylinder over another.
The only distributor related "miss" problem could
be in the cap, rotor, wires, but you already
covered that. One other thing to check about the
distributor would be the shaft bushing, as in the
points not staying set because of excess side
play, a very common problem, or possibly the
shaft bent somehow, but that's highly unlikely.
When you had the head off, did you remove the
valves? Check for loose seat, broken spring,
sticking valve.
Possibly a flat cam?
would have been wrong across the board, not
favoring one cylinder over another.
The only distributor related "miss" problem could
be in the cap, rotor, wires, but you already
covered that. One other thing to check about the
distributor would be the shaft bushing, as in the
points not staying set because of excess side
play, a very common problem, or possibly the
shaft bent somehow, but that's highly unlikely.
When you had the head off, did you remove the
valves? Check for loose seat, broken spring,
sticking valve.
Possibly a flat cam?
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
One other thought, the intake and exhaust manifolds are one casting , I believe. Is it possible the exhaust has cracked or burned internally through to the intake?
Before putting it back on, stand it up, carefully fill the exhaust with liquid, see if it comes down to the intake.
Before putting it back on, stand it up, carefully fill the exhaust with liquid, see if it comes down to the intake.
We had he same problem on our H after it sat for many years. Tried everything included ATF, Sea Foam, rebuilt carb, changing the distributor. This has gone on for almost three years. sometimes it runs great and then back to losing a cyl. Finally bought another carb and changed the rebuilt on out and now it runs decently. Who knows for how long.
Not to be mean, but lots of totally free in cost troubleshooting checks should have been done while the engine ran prior to pulling the head.
Most of the important checks are easy and free in cost to do.
Firing order
Timing set properly. (Do it statically to get it close then optimize with a timing light for perfection.)
compression check (both wet and dry).
bent pushrod?
valve lash adjustment.
vaccum leaks (Your new gasket means nothing if the manifold is so warped that it will not seal. I had to mill the manifold on my Farmall M to get it flat so it would seal. Good thought by Steve at advance to check for internal crack between the intake and exhaust side while its off too although I have never seen that).
I personally Would not even wasted money on all the ignition parts that you bought until I did some troubleshooting. I might buy 1 new plug to troubleshoot with. File and set points if not all burnt up. Make sure to clean the points with brown paper bag - oil residue on contacts can cause fits. Replace the condenser if I suspected goofiness with it. I keep all my old ignition parts that I know are good to simply troubleshoot with if nothing else. Easy for me to throw in an old condenser I know is good.
Crosshatch on the cylinders mean nothing other than it is not full of rust and pits. The rings could still be toast. Alternatively the valves could not be sealing well. Had you performed the compression check prior to pulling head then you would know if the compression was low and if the source of the low compression was rings or valves. Now you have to assemble everything to troubleshoot it like you should have done to begin with. Alternatively you could pull it down entirely measure parts for spec but that can get expensive.
Since you have the head off anyway, I would likely have a valve job performed and add umbrella seals to the stems before I re-installed it at a minimum.
Most of the important checks are easy and free in cost to do.
Firing order
Timing set properly. (Do it statically to get it close then optimize with a timing light for perfection.)
compression check (both wet and dry).
bent pushrod?
valve lash adjustment.
vaccum leaks (Your new gasket means nothing if the manifold is so warped that it will not seal. I had to mill the manifold on my Farmall M to get it flat so it would seal. Good thought by Steve at advance to check for internal crack between the intake and exhaust side while its off too although I have never seen that).
I personally Would not even wasted money on all the ignition parts that you bought until I did some troubleshooting. I might buy 1 new plug to troubleshoot with. File and set points if not all burnt up. Make sure to clean the points with brown paper bag - oil residue on contacts can cause fits. Replace the condenser if I suspected goofiness with it. I keep all my old ignition parts that I know are good to simply troubleshoot with if nothing else. Easy for me to throw in an old condenser I know is good.
Crosshatch on the cylinders mean nothing other than it is not full of rust and pits. The rings could still be toast. Alternatively the valves could not be sealing well. Had you performed the compression check prior to pulling head then you would know if the compression was low and if the source of the low compression was rings or valves. Now you have to assemble everything to troubleshoot it like you should have done to begin with. Alternatively you could pull it down entirely measure parts for spec but that can get expensive.
Since you have the head off anyway, I would likely have a valve job performed and add umbrella seals to the stems before I re-installed it at a minimum.
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
The rotor turns clockwise. I found out a long time ago on an M that it will run (poorly) if the wires are installed in correct order but for counterclockwise rotation.
Weak valve springs are a possibility at this point.
Weak valve springs are a possibility at this point.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
A common problem I have run into over the years
with older tractors is the valves being adjusted too tight.Too loose is way better than too tight and old Farmalls have pretty weak valve springs anyway so the valves need time to close.Plus while the engine sat for years at least one of the valve springs had to be compressed the whole time.So when you turn the engine over slowly it'll shut fine but when running it'll be slow and make it run poorly.
with older tractors is the valves being adjusted too tight.Too loose is way better than too tight and old Farmalls have pretty weak valve springs anyway so the valves need time to close.Plus while the engine sat for years at least one of the valve springs had to be compressed the whole time.So when you turn the engine over slowly it'll shut fine but when running it'll be slow and make it run poorly.
Well your thread title does not convey an enjoyment factor at all.
Whether you spent all this money at once or over a period of years it really makes no difference. So far all that money was wasted since none of it ever fixed the problem because zero diagnosis has ever been performed.
Less than 2 hours performing some diagnostic checks and (zero dollars spent) should indicate the source of the problem.
Alternatively, you can keep guessing and throwing money at it. If you get lucky then maybe in another few years you will eventually have a tractor that runs properly.
gearheadbill
Member
I too would go with first doing a compression test and look closely
for a vacuum leak on the intake. Make sure all the manifold studs
are in place and tight. On a cool engine spray carb cleaner around
the intake gasket area and see if this makes a difference while
idling. If so, you have an intake leak.
for a vacuum leak on the intake. Make sure all the manifold studs
are in place and tight. On a cool engine spray carb cleaner around
the intake gasket area and see if this makes a difference while
idling. If so, you have an intake leak.
Hendrik
Member
I've read on this forum (never seen it in person) that these combined intake/exhaust manifolds may have an internal leak, which means a hole between an exhaust port and an intake port.
To test: put the manifold horizontally (flange to head facing up)on your work bench, block the carb port and fill intake port with water. Water should NOT run out of exhaust port.
To test: put the manifold horizontally (flange to head facing up)on your work bench, block the carb port and fill intake port with water. Water should NOT run out of exhaust port.
ditchwitch
Well-known Member
Brian, Im reading you put in new points cap rotor.
what about the coil?? If you have to much fire going
to the points the points will start to melt and
missfire actually making it run like you discribe.
Points dont need but around 6 or 7 volts. I had to
put a inline resistor from the coil to the
distributor on my 135 massey .Till i figured that
out it was driving be bat crap crazy. used a timming
light to find out was was happening. Hope this helps
what about the coil?? If you have to much fire going
to the points the points will start to melt and
missfire actually making it run like you discribe.
Points dont need but around 6 or 7 volts. I had to
put a inline resistor from the coil to the
distributor on my 135 massey .Till i figured that
out it was driving be bat crap crazy. used a timming
light to find out was was happening. Hope this helps
ditchwitch
Well-known Member
No you need to check ,I thought the same thing .I
also used a coil with a internal resistor. So that
might be your problem.
also used a coil with a internal resistor. So that
might be your problem.
"after pulling the head we can see that the cylinder walls are very nice , you can see see cross hatch from a hone .."
This statement causes me some concern.. As cross hatching should disappear with time accumulating on the engine, so, several things come to mind.
1) If the engine is a fresh rebuild, the rings have not seated in.
2) The rings are stuck in the piston grooves from sitting.
3) Cylinders were honed to much for standard rings to be used.
A dry compression test and then a wet compression test ( pour a little oil into each cylinder ) should revel the offending cylinder or cylinders if the compression increases dramatically. BTW, I prefer to do compression test after the engine has been warmed up to operating temperatures. If you know that the rings/ valves are not the problem ( all compression tests are within 10 lbs of each other and close to required compression ) then I would use a infrared thermometer to see if all exhaust ports are the same temperature. A lower temperature on one cylinder exhaust indicates either a vacuum leak or an ignition failure in that cylinder and further testing would need to be done to determine which is the cause of the problem.
This statement causes me some concern.. As cross hatching should disappear with time accumulating on the engine, so, several things come to mind.
1) If the engine is a fresh rebuild, the rings have not seated in.
2) The rings are stuck in the piston grooves from sitting.
3) Cylinders were honed to much for standard rings to be used.
A dry compression test and then a wet compression test ( pour a little oil into each cylinder ) should revel the offending cylinder or cylinders if the compression increases dramatically. BTW, I prefer to do compression test after the engine has been warmed up to operating temperatures. If you know that the rings/ valves are not the problem ( all compression tests are within 10 lbs of each other and close to required compression ) then I would use a infrared thermometer to see if all exhaust ports are the same temperature. A lower temperature on one cylinder exhaust indicates either a vacuum leak or an ignition failure in that cylinder and further testing would need to be done to determine which is the cause of the problem.
ditchwitch
Well-known Member
Brian when it running bad does it start missing bad
enough to just stall out and turn off.???
enough to just stall out and turn off.???
rustred
Well-known Member
huh, why in the world would you pull a head without a compression check???, standard procedure on any engine. sure you can change all that stuff but without the points and timing set correctly and firing order correct you can have a HORRIBLE miss, as the spec's must be followed and you did not conferm that this is done. you did not even say if it ran like this before the parts replacement. we have very little info here. not even the compression #'s for each cyl. and also on a complete tune up valve adjustment should be done. as the valve seats wear the clearance between rocker and valve stem is decreased causing the valve not to close fully and then result in a burnt valve. with dist in correct position # 1 cyl. is at two oclock position then 3 4 2 to follow. clockwise. when properly timed the little point screw with the wire going to the coil on the side will be sitting right at 3 oclock position. that's correct dist location right from factory.
" why in the world " I would pull a head off before a compression check may be the same reason that I'm online looking for help ! I'm not a mechanic I'm a guy that gets out of bed at 4:00 am and milks cows for a living everyday that was looking for friendly advice and conversation about a hobby . I can assure you it'll be not only the first but the last time I look for help in this manner . Thanks for the friendly replys from those who gave them .
rustred
Well-known Member
ooh so mine is not friendly? I just gave professional correct advise as I am a licenced mechanic.
next time tell us your situation along with all your info and we are glad to help. how are we to know whats been done with very little info.
if you were close I would drive over there and fix it for free. that really gets my mo-jo going when people ask for help then get good correct infop and then they are mad cause they think we'
re given them heck, you ask we deliver! ooh and this is to everyone... compression check is always a must on any engine you are in dought with.
next time tell us your situation along with all your info and we are glad to help. how are we to know whats been done with very little info.
if you were close I would drive over there and fix it for free. that really gets my mo-jo going when people ask for help then get good correct infop and then they are mad cause they think we'
re given them heck, you ask we deliver! ooh and this is to everyone... compression check is always a must on any engine you are in dought with.
Brian:
Don't let a few guys ruin you getting help or ideas. There is a lot of knowledge on YT.
Fellow YT posters. LET IT BE!!!!! Your kicking a fellow that CAME HERE FOR HELP!!!! NOT EVERYONE IS AN EXPERT ON OLD tractors/MOTORS!!!. This fellow was trying to get help and learn.
Well he learned alright!!! What he learned is to NEVER asked a question on this site again!!!
Brian: As for your trouble with your IH "H". Here is a summery of many of the fellows ideas and how I would go.
1) If the tractor manifold is still off the tractor then check an see if there is a leak between the intake and exhaust.
2) If you have it back in running condition then I would start the engine and remove one plug wire at a time. (use well insulated pliers to do this with) You looking for one that does not change how the tractor is running. Meaning it is missing. IF they all effect the running then pick the one that effects it the least.
3) If you have found one cylinder that seems weaker than the others then I would switch that wire with one from another cylinder. That way you will know if the wire is the issue if the problem moves. Do the same with the spark plug.
4) The problem does not move then it is something with just that cylinder. Which could very well be a broken piston ring. I have broken them when installing them new so age is not the only factor. YES a compression check MAY show a stuck ring that causes low compression. A compression check may not show an issue when it actually is a ring/compression problem.
5) IF you have access to an inferred thermometer You can easily look for a cylinder misfire. Just let the tractor set until the manifold is at outside temperature. Start the tractor and check each cylinder on the exhaust manifold. If one is missing it will show colder than the others. You need to do this right at startup. The entire manifold will even out in temperature after it runs a short while.
6) Take the distributor cap, rotor button and cover plate off. Check and see if the bushing in the top of the distributor shaft is bad allowing the shaft to move sideways. This will make the points cap change. This effect the timing and quality of the spark.
7) If no issue there then I would return to the carburetor. I have rebuilt them and they did not work right either. If the carburetor was really gummed up it is real easy to not get all the internal ports cleaned up all the way.
That is about all of the ideas I have and copies of many of the other posters suggestions.
Don't let a few guys ruin you getting help or ideas. There is a lot of knowledge on YT.
Fellow YT posters. LET IT BE!!!!! Your kicking a fellow that CAME HERE FOR HELP!!!! NOT EVERYONE IS AN EXPERT ON OLD tractors/MOTORS!!!. This fellow was trying to get help and learn.
Well he learned alright!!! What he learned is to NEVER asked a question on this site again!!!
Brian: As for your trouble with your IH "H". Here is a summery of many of the fellows ideas and how I would go.
1) If the tractor manifold is still off the tractor then check an see if there is a leak between the intake and exhaust.
2) If you have it back in running condition then I would start the engine and remove one plug wire at a time. (use well insulated pliers to do this with) You looking for one that does not change how the tractor is running. Meaning it is missing. IF they all effect the running then pick the one that effects it the least.
3) If you have found one cylinder that seems weaker than the others then I would switch that wire with one from another cylinder. That way you will know if the wire is the issue if the problem moves. Do the same with the spark plug.
4) The problem does not move then it is something with just that cylinder. Which could very well be a broken piston ring. I have broken them when installing them new so age is not the only factor. YES a compression check MAY show a stuck ring that causes low compression. A compression check may not show an issue when it actually is a ring/compression problem.
5) IF you have access to an inferred thermometer You can easily look for a cylinder misfire. Just let the tractor set until the manifold is at outside temperature. Start the tractor and check each cylinder on the exhaust manifold. If one is missing it will show colder than the others. You need to do this right at startup. The entire manifold will even out in temperature after it runs a short while.
6) Take the distributor cap, rotor button and cover plate off. Check and see if the bushing in the top of the distributor shaft is bad allowing the shaft to move sideways. This will make the points cap change. This effect the timing and quality of the spark.
7) If no issue there then I would return to the carburetor. I have rebuilt them and they did not work right either. If the carburetor was really gummed up it is real easy to not get all the internal ports cleaned up all the way.
That is about all of the ideas I have and copies of many of the other posters suggestions.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
I will make you the best offer of all......
First, tell me where you are located. If you are close enough, I would be happy to make a personal appearance and help you figure this out. Failing that, I can work with you one on one over the phone. I have been working with engines since I was a young teenager. I also worked for many years as a professional mechanic. I still have diagnostic tools dating back to points and carburetor days. I am also (mostly) retired, and enjoy a challenge project from time to time. Send me an email if you are interested.
First, tell me where you are located. If you are close enough, I would be happy to make a personal appearance and help you figure this out. Failing that, I can work with you one on one over the phone. I have been working with engines since I was a young teenager. I also worked for many years as a professional mechanic. I still have diagnostic tools dating back to points and carburetor days. I am also (mostly) retired, and enjoy a challenge project from time to time. Send me an email if you are interested.
thanx jd for the point of order ,,,, you tell em ,, ya never learn if you don't ask, my 5th grade teacher would say ,, sadly some folx still act a little like they are on the playground during recess ,,. but such is life ,, sometimes we encourage and sometimes we rib ,, ya better be able to accept both ...
Hi Brian,
If you have a magneto, there is a lubrication port for light
weight oil to lubricate the shaft. I have squirted too much oil in
the port which coated the points and the magneto. Just a
thought. A broken compression ring will yield similar results.
Good luck and please keep me posted. An H is a great
tedding/raking tractor. Jake
If you have a magneto, there is a lubrication port for light
weight oil to lubricate the shaft. I have squirted too much oil in
the port which coated the points and the magneto. Just a
thought. A broken compression ring will yield similar results.
Good luck and please keep me posted. An H is a great
tedding/raking tractor. Jake
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