OT - 2,4-D, Liquid Fertilizer, Seeding and Questions

This is probably some of the nuttiest questions I've asked in a while, so forgive me they are...

In our hayfield revitalization plan this upcoming year, the plan is to spray everything with 2,4-D in mid April to knock down the weeds and cut the hay in mid May (if possible), again around the 4th of July and again in mid to late August. At that point, we plan to kill everything down to dirt and start over.

I've been doing a bit of reading and it sounds like one can mix 2,4-D with some liquid fertilizer (type TBD) and in doing so, get the weeds to launch into a growth spurt and really suck-in the 2,4-D for a better kill. The rest of the grass hay would benefit to some extent from the liquid fertilizer. The aftermath would hopefully give us some hay with considerably fewer weeds as well as a bit higher yield.

Anyone had any success with mixing 2,4-D and a liquid fertilizer?

With the whole burn down to dirt and start from scratch plans, one of our biggest challenges and expenses is that our farm geographically is in a bad spot relative to lime and fertilizer co-op places (read long distances) as well as seed drill rental. This makes their stuff very expensive just due to the distances and some won't deliver at all.

I don't see any of getting around lime, but fertilizing going forward - is some type of liquid fertilizer with my 50 gal/3pt sprayer a realistic option? Today is 12 acres, maybe as much as 30 in a few years.

Drilling seed, just due to rental distances is going to be a challenge too. One of the things I've thought about, which runs counter to our plans, is knocking down the weeds, forgetting about a burn down/start over and making due with the fields as they are. With that approach, we'd try some kind of broadcast and or frost seeding - looking at over time having one dominate grass from our efforts. If a liquid fertilizer is a real solution and not a gimmick, then I've got the equipment to go this route and wouldn't have to depend on the co-ops, other than lime.

Much to consider.

Any advice/suggestions is appreciated.

Thanks!
Bill

Of all the times I have sprayed 2,4-D, it does it's damage to the weeds in a few hours to 2 days.
Richard in NW SC

2,4-D will not touch grass and will kill any clover and/or alfalfa you wish to keep. It also works in hours to days as mentioned. As for fertilizer, I'm not sure where you would find a liquid that you could apply yourself that wouldn't make more sense to have custom applied. Fert rates can run into 20-30 gallons per acre. Best bet might be to bale it in April/May and find someone to spread (liquid or dry) a fertilizer mix with your new seed in it.
AaronSEIA

Grass hay is, for the most part, perrennial plants. I hear this from time to time where people want to burn down the grass and replant. I have been cutting the same grass for a very long time. Unless you want to go to a near pure stand of something, like timothy for example, what is the purpose to the burn down? Fertilizing the existing grass seems like a more cost effective and sensible plan. I think the field down the road has been being hayed for most of 20 years now without replanting. Mostly grass but there is still some alfalfa in there. Last year I took more bales from it than any year prior. I don't burn down and replant my grass hay anymore than I would my grass lawn. Just another perspective.

If its too far to haul granular fertilizer, where will the liquid come from? You need to haul more liquid, as it is less concentrated than granular.

Over all granular fert is the best bulk fix the soil type of fert, best bang for the buck. Liquid is for minor upkeep, as it costs more. Tho many use it for general use, so can be done as you want.

I think you need more flow from a sprayer to apply enough, so might be investing in streamer bars or some such to spray the liquid?

Paul

What kind of grass hay gives you three cuttings a year? Wow! I would be cautious about mixing 2-4D in a pure liquid fertilizer concentration. We do sometimes put a little 28% or 32% nitrogen in the water when we spray weeds to give the herbicide a little more kick but pure fertilizer might make the 2-4D burn the grass. Just a hunch here with no experience. Spraying fertilizer will require quite a few gallons per acre, like was said so you would need size 5 nozzles or bigger if you want to get any speed up.

If I remember from past posts, you are close to me. If that is the case you should have several options for custom applied fertilizer and lime. We use Augusta Coop for most of our fertilizer. They will spread with their own trucks, or will send a local custom guy to spread. I think there is a minimum acreage charge (5 acres maybe?) but sounds like you'd have more than that anyway. Rockbridge Coop would also be someone to check into, and there are others in Rockingham County.

The coop could also hook you up with guys to spread lime for you. Or you could have it delivered in bulk to your place from the quarry (if you have a front end loader to load with) and have a local custom guy spread it or rent a spreader from the coop and do yourself.

Also from previous posts, I think you have quite a bit of broomsedge? If that is the case the lime and decent amount of fertilizer is going to be a must. Even if you kill it when you kill the field it will be back without good fertility.

We have never mixed 24d with liquid nitrogen, but have mixed it with Roundup a few times when we needed to go in and do a burndown in wheat stubble or something directly ahead of notilling planting small grain grazing mixes. But the purpose was to give a jumpstart to the next crop, not boost the weeds. As another poster said, the 24d is going to hit the weeds so fast the N isn't going to have any impact on the weeds.

In my opinion, fertilizer and lime cost enough, and need to be done right, to let people who know what they are doing apply it.

If you want a quality stand of grass hay you pretty much are going to need to burndown and start fresh. Frost seeding clover works ok, but that is mainly it. You can sometimes broadcast some orchard grass and timothy to thicken up some stands but it's not ideal. If you have heavy cover now with existing grass/weeds then broadcasting grass seed probably isn't going to be the best option - just not enough seed to soil contact. Renting the drill and no-tilling into the existing stuff would work better than broadcasting. Killing and starting over even better.

You will probably find that two cuttings is about all you can expect this summer too. Unless you are hitting whatever is there with nitrogen after each cutting, and then get timely rains, cutting mid/late May and then again early August before killing and drilling new is probably about all you can expect and have it be worth running over to bale.

Just my $.02

How are the other guys in your area handling there fert needs and planting. Maybe one close by could be of help, either with advice as to who they use or maybe they have what you need and you could hire them.

Sounds ok to me but I would add a pint of Banvel to take out and bigger broad leaf weeds. Your 24d and liquid fertlizer will give the grass some burn but it will not hurt it long term.

I use 30% liquid N(32% w/ammonium thiosulfate) as a fertilizer and carrier for herbicide for small grains and corn. For oats and wheat 24D ester is the herbicide. Don't use amine forms. It doesn't mix readily with liquid N. Banvel is a little too hot for small grains. It can negatively effect flowering. I don't know how it would do on your grasses.

Need to know a few things... Where are you? What kind of grasses? Your best estimate of percentage of field that has a sufficient stand of grass now?
It may not be necessary that you need to totally kill and start over with entire new seeding. I have seen some bad looking, neglected fields of grass brought back with weed control , proper fertilizing and over-seeding (broadcast seeded before a rainy spell or no-till drill) in August with grass and clovers.

I would do the following:
First get a soil test done.
Apply all needed limestone as soon as soil can support equipment this spring.
Apply half the recommended plant nutrients as a dry fertilizer containing N-P-K, broadcast with a 3-point mounted whirly type spreader, at grass green-up. Apply the other half after first cutting.

Depending upon what weeds you are seeing dictates what I would do about spraying. If you have a scattering of Curly and Broad-Leaf Dock, walk your fields with a back-pack sprayer applying Glyphosate, with a little 2-4-D in the mix, to the Dock weeds when they begin to leaf out.
After first cutting and grasses begin regrowth, if you have tough perennial weeds, use dicamba and 2-4-D or some other products designed for grasslands and pastures. (Be advised though that there are products that remain in the hay and after being eaten by animals is in the manure and will kill legumes and vegetables if manure is dropped in pastures or spread in fields or gardens.)
After second cutting and some regrowth, identify weed species surviving and evaluate grass stand as to whether you need to do a total kill and get ready for a re-seeding later. If sufficient grass stand remains , apply 150- 200lbs./acre of 34% Nitrogen fertilizer mid-to-late August to boost growth for late September to mid-October cutting of fine leafy grass blades.

Use of liquid fertilizer in a sprayer requires use of a pump and tips in the nozzles that are resistant to fertilizer corrosion.

I have never sprayed 2-4-D in a fertilizer solution but a friend did. He found that he had to mix the amount of 2-4-D needed in water before adding it to the liquid nitrogen solution he was applying. Full strength 2-4-D did not mix well in the nitrogen.



Best wishes.
some good info

Thanks everyone for your replies - very helpful info.

To answer some of the questions asked of me:

The goal of a burn down is to establish two separate fields, one with 100% timothy and the other 100% orchard grass.

Three cuttings: First cut is to get the hay before it goes to seed - looking for quality vs quantity. Second cut is to get the hay before the broomsedge gets out of hand. Third cut is to get a little hay, but mostly to clean-up the fields before the burn down.

Liquid fertilizer: I was thinking/reading about a foliar type concentrate mixed into water, something Grasshopper would make and I could spread with my own equipment. In further reading, not sure that is a route I want to take.

We have soil tests in hand and will retest in August again.

Rockbridge coop is to far away - to the east. I talked to them and they are not interested in coming out to our place. As the crow flies, we are not far away, but as the road travels, there almost no interstate and much two lane road winding through mountains that make for several hours one way, depending on your mileage and mph.

What are other farmers doing with their hay fields around me? Pretty much nothing. Driving around, I see lots of weedy fields being cut. I'd like to do better.

The Maryland articles on reseeding are great. I downloaded all three of the series.

Thanks again everyone. Just trying to be informed in everything I do - your input/advice is very helpful.

Bill

What about a 3-point spin spreader for the fertilizer? Don't know what your samples call for but I wonder if your nearest dealer would either bag and stack on a pallet or fill a super-sack with a granular mix that you need. At least you could haul it in a pickup or on a trailer and not depend on the coop to deliver. Are there any options west of Rockbridge? Does anyone have experience with he liquid calcium that is advertized?

I don't mean to presume, but I know a lot of people around here that overlook the importance of ph and only focus on fertilizer.

If you CAN'T get lime in there, I'd worry that your efforts will be wasted.

Depends on your soil of course, but it sounds like the field's been neglected for some time, and I'm guessing it might need it.

You've got to have the right ph level for the fertilizer to be effective, and for most grasses to thrive. Otherwise you're going to spend a whole lot of money only to raise thin grass.

Not what you were asking, so I apologize if you've got it covered - but figured I'd throw it out there just in case.