(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

OT - Using-Up the Land, Replenishing the Land Question

B

Bill VA

Well-known Member
So in my little operation, it is grow the hay, cut the hay and move it off the property. With the hay goes such things as nitrogen, potash and potassium and the soil's PH goes down.

From an engineering point of view, nothing is free. You use the land and do nothing to replenish and you basically got an empty bucket with nothing to grow from - so you replenish.

Even grasses eventually die of "old age" and have to be reseeded.

Back in the day, my great grandfather farmed the same land. He made hay, raised livestock, chickens, etc., they returned some nutrients back to the soil via poop, but not all of it as what food wasn't consumed, was sold. I should think at some point in time, even his soil would be come diminished and eventually an empty bucket. My great grandfather didn't have access to a co-op, as they didn't exist and if they did, I can't imagine he'd have the $$$'s to buy anything.

Which leads me to my question:

How is it possible to organically replenish my hay fields without calling the co-op for fertilizer and lime. I don't think it can be done. It is a question to which no one has been able to answer.

Your thoughts?

BTW - in no way am I trying to diminish either organic or modern farming methods or get a "who struck John" argument started between organic and non-organic folks.

Just looking for some facts as I move towards rejuvenating my hay fields into something more productive than a weed factory.

Thanks!
Bill
 
Last time I checked, lime was still organic. If you stop and think about it N, P & K are mined or otherwise derived from the earth, so they are "organic" as well.

I know a lady who was going to get rich by "organically" "farming" 1/4 acre. The fall before she started she put one TON of 10-10-10 on it! That's 800# per acre each of N, P & K. How is that environmentally sound?
 
OK - so I have a stand of orchard grass. Rotate in Timothy? Either way I'm still moving soil nutrients off the field when I bale and sell the hay and need to replenish them.

BTW - I should have mentioned it in my original post. Plowing IMHO is pretty much out of the question. We have as many rock in our soil as there is oil in the middle east. You dig a ditch and it looks like your plowing potatoes - LOL. There are massive rock piles around the farm where generations have stacked rocks out of these fields. Don't have the time or resources to pick rocks.

My present thinking is that whatever crop rotation would be either burning the field down to dirt and no till planting the next crop or overseeding over time from one grass to another. For example - overseed Timothy into the Orchardgrass over a period of several years until the Timothy dominates.

Just trying to understand.

Thanks,
Bill
 
Nitrogen can be replenished using legumes in hay. 50 % alfalfa stand can supply all of N for 175 bushel corn crop. IMO P&K must be replenished from some source,(manure, fertilizer, etc.).thanks
 
Don't know about your neck of the woods but here a guy can buy chicken/turkey poo. Don't know what it's selling for now but they put it down by ton per acre after soil testing. I know one organic guy who takes one cutting of hay and just runs through the field with a rotary mower to put vegetable matter back down to help hold nutrients and puts down chicken poo once every 3-4 years.


Rick
 
We have an organic dairy that also farms for feed in this area, southern ID. I have figured out the difference between organic and non organic. The cows are given meds. and shots at night, and the fertilizing and chemical application are done with tractor lights also. Their label on their milk says organic and sells for big bucks. So the yuppies that buy it don't know the true facts anyway.
 
My Dad never limed or used commercial fertilizer. He had a small dairy and fed everything through the cows. Pasture was grass and clover. He worked up about 10 acres every year to plant corn for silage. Usually a 4 year old stand of pasture. The cows grazed 300 days a year, he hauled the "droppings" from the loafing shed twice a week and cleaned the slab at the feed trough at the silo once a week (Saturday) while we were home from school, spread on next years corn field. He had 12 acre river bottom that he grew grain on, oats and peas and/or barley and vetch that he put in an old wood grainary and ground for the cows, this was where he spread the manure when he cleaned the barn pack in the fall after harvest. The feed bunk in front of the cows was swept to the end for the 3 pigs, along with a scoop of hay and silage. Any bad milk was made into mash with a little ground grain, and some whole, that sprouted, fed to the pigs and the chickens. We also had a few sheep for weed control around the buildings and lanes. We always had a huge garden that got compost during the growing season and a coating of fresh manure before planting. He had some of the best "dirt" in the county....James
 
Plant a legume, such as clover, alfalfa, peas, or some such. They will add some nitrogen. Spread some poultry litter on for your phos. From there you are on your own.
 
Frost seed or intertill red clover into grass. Do it every year on my permanent hayfields.4 to5 lbs. Per acre very early in spring. Have used Van brunt drill, tubes down disk openers. Also have Coop mix clover in with dry fertilizer. Works both ways. Trick is to have grass stumble mowed or grazed pretty short and do it early in spring to let seed get worked Into soil by rain, snow , freezing,etc. before grass takes off in spring. Good luck
 
Look to the forests for your answer. What keeps a "natural" forest going forever? What ends up growing there when it is clear cut/harvested? If you taketh away, you must replace. Replenishment of natural neutrients in the natural form would still be "organic". Herbicides , insecticides,fungicides or any "cides" not so much. What is unnatural about lime , potash,nitrogen/urea etc? The part most neglected because it's expensive/non-productive in most minds is "humus" replentishment. Soil needs angle worm population also and compaction and lack of humus retards their population more than anything. Won't get into what the "cides" affect is on them. You can either buy/haul in humus from offsite or plant it on site. One of our better old time farmers (gone now) used to plant some kind of rye grass mix that grew taller than his Ford 5000 tractor. He hadn a three bottom plow with chain tied to the coulters and draped back into the furrow. He would plow that rye under and not a lick of it was showing behind him. Was a sight to see. If I'm lyin' I'm dyin". He was a perfectionist farmer with a lot of pride. That was a lot of humus.
 
I have been haying the same 300 acres alfalfa/grass mix for 21 years without spreading a single lbs of fertilizer of any kind.
We had a severe drought 9 years ago that killed of just about everything and I plowed the fields up and reseeded it the next spring without a cover crop or fertilizer, the first cut produced a 1000 rounds end july/aug.(i take only one cut per year although some years i could have 2)
These fields have consistently produced between 2 1/2 to 4 six foot dia round bales per acre depending on rain fall.

I could probably up the yield by a bale per acre by spreading fertilizer but the cost of that would be far more than the increase in production/yield.
It's cheaper to buy hay if i run short.
 
Nutrients such as Potash, phosphate, and nitrates can not be created out of thin air. There are a variety of sources that satisfy NOFA if that is your goal. The three majors can be sourced from animal manure but the concentration and therefore the practicality of sourcing those nutrients from manure vary. My understanding that there are sources of Potash and Phosphate that are mined from the earth that satisfy organic requirements. If you are merely engaged in some sort of subsistence system you can use a rotation involving legumes such as clovers and/or alfalfa to build up the level of organic nitrate to be used for future crops. Whether they can be built up in the short term to eliminate commercial fertilizer to grow sufficient production is another question altogether.
 
I am about 12 years into the field down the road and it was planted years before I took it over. Never put anything on it. Orchard/timothy/alfalfa and a few odds and ends. Last year was record production. If anything, giving it a years rest when hay prices have been depressed has done a lot for it.
 
What I do is plant clover every year to help with the nitrogen and I also run a few horses on the same area that I bale hay in so they help fertilize the fields
 
Bill, as you can see by some of the replies you have already gotten, there is no simple answer to your question. There is no way to harvest the same crop on the same fields year after year without eventually mining all the nutrients (p, k, n, and all the minerals) from your soil. Even if you are diligent in your liming and fertilizing, you will still eventually reach a point of dimishing returns.
Is there a way for you to incorporate livestock into your operation? Perhaps taking a few fields out of hay production each year to be grazed? Livestock and their ability to harvest a crop and recycle the nutrients back onto the soil could perhaps offer the best alternative to yearly applications of granular fertilizer and lime. Manure and urine offer so many benefits to soil beyond the 3 basic nutrients. Animal manure feeds soil microbes and earthworms, which are immensely beneficial for nutrient uptake. Not to mention, earthworm tailings are ph neutral. Also, as mentioned previously, legumes are a must in helping grass stands to last longer. Nutrient scavenging, deep rooted crops such has ryegrass or radishes could also be drilled into existing stands to help with nutrient replenishment.
Just my 2 cents.
 
You could have a large party. Tell your guests your bathroom is broken. They would have to go in the hay field.
 
Not really answering you question but a side note. Have you ever wondered what trees (grass too) are made of? Where all that substance that makes them comes from. If it was out of the dirt why isn't there a big hole around trees where the materials were obtained from? Why don't fields get lower and lower as year after year all that crop is hauled away from them? A lot of wood/plant structure is carbon pulled from the air by photosynthesis. They take carbon dioxide from the air, use the carbon to make their structure and release the oxygen. Sure there is quite a bit of water in a them too, and some minerals, but a whole lot is carbon sourced from the air. Hence the talk of burning them being carbon neutral, about them sequestering carbon, and about them giving off oxygen for us.
 
I don't believe timothy would ever over take the orchard grass .Orchard grass is one of the toughest things to kill.
 
There are plenty of sources of nutrients Greensand,Lime,Phosphate rock,Planters II,animal manure,growing legumes,kelp etc.Once land is mineralized and truly fertile it doesn't take a lot to keep it that way,its just getting there that's expensive.Sort of like it costs no more to keep a full tank of gas than one that's almost empty just the original fillup that costs.
 
(quoted from post at 11:33:10 02/20/15) I am about 12 years into the field down the road and it was planted years before I took it over. Never put anything on it. Orchard/timothy/alfalfa and a few odds and ends. Last year was record production. If anything, giving it a years rest when hay prices have been depressed has done a lot for it.
Click to expand...
ou got it Dave.
Nature is self sustaining,.if it wasn't.. all the grass lands and prairies would've been desert by now.
Take half.. leave half,..that's why i take only one cut per year.
 
I use a 12' chain harrow with an Easy Seeder broadcast spreader for clover. Both on the tractor at the same time so it's a one pass operation

Do it when the ground is frozen/bare.

The harrow scratches up the old grass enough that the clover makes good soil contact

Fred
 

Hey Bill, don't forget that the biggest input is free and unlimited, the sun. here in NH we have a number of biomass fueled elec. Generating plants. The ash that they generate is rich in P and K, and most of them have the ash certified free of contaminates. it is available for the cost of trucking.
 
A mixed hay crop should be able to fix enough nitrogen to sustain itself. There is also probably enough phosphorus in many corn belt soils to last many years, if it can be coaxed out of it's insoluble and unavailable forms. If you remove hay, you will have to supply potassium and calcium at some point or the soil will become depleted. One thing I will never understand is the "organic" objection to normal manufactured fertilizer. The plant takes up the individual nutrients it needs, regardless of the source. Would you rather have lettuce in your salad that was fertilized with 12-12-12 or which was grown by burying a roadkill possum under the row? Answer--they would be the same, but the possum lettuce would cost twice as much because it was "organic."
 
(quoted from post at 11:47:04 02/20/15) What I do is plant clover every year to help with the nitrogen and [b:d1d6033c37]I also run a few horses on the same area that I bale hay [/b:d1d6033c37]in so [b:d1d6033c37]they help fertilize the fields[/b:d1d6033c37]
Click to expand...
ood way to F up a hay field.
Much good does that? ,..horses are like pigs,..they crap in the same spot.
 
The problem with manure is that it is a volatile source of N. You lose lots of it before it gets put to use by the plants. I'm not sure what the stance is from an organic standpoint, but you need micronutrients in addition to P, K, calcium, etc. Take soil samples and send them off to Midwest Labs. They will better be able to help you.

I will tell you this. Some of the best fields I have seen have been no tilled into an old hay field. Hay fields are not depleted like crop fields are. This last year I planted one of the top fields to beans. It is horrible dirt and rarely raises a decent crop. I was using the new planter and wanted to see just how good it was at no till. I ran the outer two units into the hay field all of the way around. Those two rows made more than the rest of the field total. Way back when, all I heard was how poor hay ground soil was and you couldn't break it out and use it because it wouldn't grow a crop. It has taken a long time to get that out of my mind and realize the opposite is true.

The home pasture here gets most of it's fertilizer from the chicken houses. It seems to do well, but I try to put it on when it will get washed in. Again, poop is a volitile source of N.
 
You need to compost manure with something like old hay or wood shavings to stabilize the N,matter of fact most owners of large poultry houses in my area are required to have a covered shed and to compost the litter before they can sell it or spread it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

rusty6
Another Jigsaw angle
Replies
3
Views
229
rusty6
rusty6
C
Follow up on the 4830 hydraulic pump
Replies
0
Views
130
Casey in Ky
C
C
Rent for tillage field land
Replies
16
Views
2K
caterpillar guy
C
T
Steering Question on a Case-IH 895.
Replies
8
Views
363
Texasmark
T
F
420c is it a bad idea?
Replies
3
Views
487
TomA in CA
T
Tractor Parts Tractor Manuals

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top