Farms can be held liable for pollution from manure: U.S. ...

A U.S. federal court has ruled for the first time
that manure from livestock facilities can be
regulated as solid waste
Untitled URL Link

I have mixed feelings about this issue. I raise livestock and try to follow the rules for applying manure within the recommended guidelines. Just about everyone raising livestock is also a good steward of the land. I do not like having more rules to follow, and I think a lot of applying nutrients is common sense: It is in a farmer's best interest to apply what is needed, and not over-apply (that is just throwing away money in my opinion). But I also think the laws are there to prevent abuse of groundwater and other resources by those operations with bad management. So while I do not like all the negative media exposure that livestock production gets at times, sometimes it is deserved...

More laws, more different attitudes from the ones enforcing them,,more expense to the farmer,,and then finally more expense to the grocery store..and "Then" the public will blame the cost on the Farmer...and nothing will be gained from it all....we see this with the CDL issue, the Health care issue and anything that the Government gets involved with..(Oops I got back on my soap box again)

The writing has been on the walls for years.

In our area it started with the local parish/state forcing dairy farmers to improve/build holding ponds for their barns.
This one thing showed a recordable difference in ground water runoff in the local lakes and rivers.

A local egg farm owns hundreds of acres just so they have a easy place to dispose of manure; and yet they may have to buy more as the egg barns increase.

We have thousands of row crop farmers that buy millions of pounds of commercial fertilizer each year because it is the easy cheap way.
With the mega animal farms of today the challenge now becomes a way to price and haul this manure to the row crop farmers that need it.

Dang life was so much simpler when we raised a cow and a few chickens and used the manure to make our gardens grow better.

I agree. Why dump extra on your land when you could potentially sell it to someone who doesn't have that resource. I don't have cattle on the place but would likely pay to have manure spread on the fields if it were made available. Ground water issues are no joke, of course. Our place has been farmed continuously since 1836. I told the folks who bought the house up by the road that, if it were me, I would take my chances with bottled water. I don't even want to think about all the things that have been applied to this ground over the last 100 years or so.

As always, one wrongdoer can do alot to destroy the integrity of others.

Nobody should be over-applying anything. This goes for all fertilizers. Nobody should be over-applying lawn/garden fertilizers.

Indiana has set phosphorus application limits for applying manure. It has nothing to do with what's applied and everything to do with what's in the soil. Some ground in our area that has either never had any fertilizer/manure applied or hasn't had any in decades applied can test near, at, or even above these rates. We're in an area that has high natural phosporus levels. What's there naturally isn't usable by the plant. Test plots show that further (proper and reasonable) application improves yields. It doesn't matter. The rulebook says "thou shalt not apply to soil when above these limits". When you try and put everyone in the same box, some in the box get screwed over to preserve the integrity of the box.

From your link: "Fertilizer is not considered waste under the act, but the district court found that Cow Palace was applying more manure to crops than needed.", and, "The court found that Cow Palace's management of its manure violated the "open dumping" provisions of law." If it isn't covered by the act/law, how can you legally apply the act to it?

AG

John I think you have missed the whole real issue.
Life is still pretty simple and in these times "a cow and a few chickens" are a whole different thing from the industrial farms that need large acreage to just dispose of the manure.
In my mind the real issue is in your post when you said " the challenge now becomes a way to price and haul this manure to the row crop farmers that need it." The industrial farmer is a financial idiot! The issue is "A WAY TO PRICE AND HAUL". I am a row crop farmer who could use manure to advantage but the industrial farmer wants me to buy what he is willing to pay thousands to buy land to dispose. And I'm the stupid one here? I don't think so!

One more step to being like other countries and we will have no rights. Every new law takes one more freedom.

(quoted from post at 18:12:35 01/18/15) I told the folks who bought the house up by the road that, if it were me, I would take my chances with bottled water. I don't even want to think about all the things that have been applied to this ground over the last 100 years or so.

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I think I'd take my chances sending some water samples to a labratory first.

Once you find out if anything unacceptable is present, you have to find out if it's naturally-occuring or, if it isn't, how the unacceptable got there.

AG

"but the industrial farmer wants me to buy what he is willing to pay thousands to buy land to dispose"

From that statement you sound like the industrial farmer should send you the manure for free.

My point of view would rather the industrial farmer take the $1 he spends to dispose of manure and the $1 you spend on commercial fertilizer be combined to make $2 and figure out a way to get the manure to your farm so you could use it at a cost of $2.

Go visit a feedlot. They've already figured it out.

As bad as I hate to say this Its about time. I have been by some of these large operations hear in Ohio and it is a shame the way things are done. Back when I had hogs and cows I treated manure like gold to put it back on the farm, It was important part of my fert program and rotation.

My cousin worked at a large hog operation hear in Ohio and took me on a tour of the place. It was impressive till I saw them spreading liquid manure on top of frozen ground in the pouring rain and watching it go into a creek near by. When I ask my cousin why them were doing this he said that the manure has to be spread no matter what and they had bought credits from the government for the waste and they were good to go. I asked him his thoughts on this not the companies ideas he said he did not agree with them, But I need the job and I just work hear. He did quit 2 months later.

A 1000 acre place with 5000 head of hogs on a small area or 5000 cows in the same area is asking for trouble. I do not believe in these mega live stock operations are good for anything but causing problems, Small places spread across the country like it use to be are a better idea and better for the economy. More people doing jobs across the country in production and support of these people and money spread across the country. Now it's the mega operators that employ a few people that control most of the market and the profit and prices and have made the problems we have today.

I know I will be beat up for this but its just my way of thinking. I don't believe in assembly line farming. Bandit

About time, soil erosion should also be controlled.

I know a lot of farmers with the large chicken and turkey operations and not 1 of them has to pay to dispose of the manure.They have sheds that the manure is stored in and then after it composts for awhile its sold for $20-$30 a ton.Most grower houses are only cleaned out once a year so there isn't as much litter as there used to be anyway.The ones that are getting in trouble and have problems are the hog and diary operations with the liquid manure tanks that spring a leak and it runs into creeks etc.The problem in places like Delaware is the cost of trucking the manure to farms that need the manure.

That's why I farm like I do. I raise hogs, cattle, and crops. I won't ever be a mega producer (I have 1000 acres now and can't see getting and bigger) but I give jobs to lots at the local sale barn and slaughter house. Folks stand in line for real meat - the way we are supposed to eat it.

I agree. The large operations are the ones I worry about. The "normal" farmer pays more attention to detail. I remember my dad said years ago manure WAS your fertilizer, then the universities did studies and said farmers were wasting their time spreading manure. Don't know what they thought they were going to do with it lol. Then a few years later the universities said there was some good in doing it. Hmmm....

I think it was Wendell Berry who said something to the effect that modern industrial farming takes a solution which has been working for thousands of years and makes it into two problems, how to get fertility into soil and how to dispose of manure.
Zach

Bandit, you won't take a beating from me. I think along the same lines. Our county has had those 5000 head dairies. They simply can not handle that much manure concentrated in one spot. They tear the roads up hauling the manure and can not haul it far enough away economically.

I think 500 head dairy herds spread out on farms with enough acreage base would be ideal.

Another thought many dairy farms are located on hilly rolling ground that will not support a living growing row crops. That magnifies the problem.

It looks like the only new part is that because manure can now be considered a hazardous material, a farm can now be held responsible for the cleanup, similar to any other hazardous material spill.

I think a person or business has always been liable if they created a hazard, a burden or a nuisance for someone else, but they only had to cease and maybe pay restitution, cleanup was not required.

A coworker had a milk tank truck run off the road and spill a lot of milk into his front yard. The fire department hosed down the area, but it stank bad for the next two summers. I guess about anything can be hazardous in a high enough concentration. The best solution is probably to handle those things responsibly and to have some consideration for your neighbors. That last one is to often hard to do when money is involved.

I get a good laugh out of you farmers that think it is only the "INDUSTRIAL FARMS" that are going to be hit by this ruling. I see far more manure issues on the small farms than the larger farms. Most larger farms can and do spend the money to contain and apply manure to where it is needed. The few that do have problems are already on the DNRs radar and are getting fined an inspected at a higher rate.

I would bet that well above 90% of the larger farms already comply with whatever the new "rules/law" will be. It will be the medium size and small farms that will get hammered the hardest.

I see many small 10-30 cow herds that are fed hay in one spot along the road that have ZERO manure control. So if we get a big spring rain that manure is washed straight down in to creeks. It is rarely if ever spread on fields. It will jus take ONE single water sample for that producer to be under the ruling that manure as a solid waste.

HERE is a real life example of what is going to happen:
If you have over 1000 animal units in IOWA you have to have an ANNUAL manure plan WITH a EPA water discharge permit. To get and keep the EPA permit you have to have annual water discharge plans done and 100% inspections of these plans. THE farmer can not do the plan it has to be a certified EPA planner. This cost $15,000 the first year!!! Then $6000-7000 each year after that. Manure sample are not included in that cost. That is usually another $750-1000 each year.

How do I know these numbers??? I get to write those checks each year!!!

I guess we are an "INDUSTRIAL FARM" 8 lots/pens that can hold up to 200 head each. This barely makes enough PROFIT to support my two sons. It would not support them without the grain land to go with it.

So be darn careful of the unintended consequences!!!!!

Most of us seem to agree that bigger in not usually better. The trouble is you get these rules in place and it hits the smaller or beginning farmers the hardest.

We have to figure around $10 per head for DNR and EPA program costs. If a person with only 200 head has to pay for just the EPA water discharge permit and study they would have $75 per head in it the first year an then $35 per head there after.

What do you think your general farm liability policy will cost if they start regulating all livestock waste as solid waste like what comes out of sewer plants????

I see and hear a lot of smaller producers on here talking gleefully about the "industrial farms" getting hit with this. Well there are darn few "INDUSTRIAL farms" that are not family owned and operated. They just usually have multiple generations still on the farm.

These court rulings will speed the drive to be bigger. A smaller producer will be hard pressed to pay for the cost of complying with the programs and laws that will come about if manure is treated as solid waste.

Well stated JD, the reason there are bigger farms are the people that "had" smaller farmers died off and the children went to town for a "real" job. The rules of engagement started years ago and are picking up speed now. The primary reasons for permits is to already have the paper work started for the fines,,and the rules will change as you go..

JD has explained it very well.

In Indiana, a "big" animal operaton is a called a Confined Feeding Operation, or CFO. 300 head of cattle, 600 hogs or sheep, or 30,000 birds fall under these rules. A "BTO" operation is a Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation, or CAFO. Those include 700 mature dairy cows, 1,000 veal calves, 1,000 cattle other than mature dairy cows, 2,500 swine above 55 pounds, 10,000 swine less than 55 pounds, 500 horses, 10,000 sheep or lambs, 55,000 turkeys, 30,000 laying hens or broilers with a liquid manure handling system, 125,000 broilers with a solid manure handling system, 82,000 laying hens with a solid manure handling system, 30,000 ducks with a solid manure handling system, or 5,000 ducks with a liquid manure handling system fall under those. That's as I type this today. The rules are always changing. I'm not going into all of the rules, but they are easily found online. There will be very few new CFO's because of the money involved to comply with the rules. It pays, so to speak, to go big, or stay out of it all together.

Also, the smaller-sized animal farmers that are exempt today from many rules and regulations may think they have it made. They seem not to consider that when the regulators have finished nailing these "industrial farms" to the wall, the regulators likely are coming after them.

This ruling, if upheld, effects every livestock farmer, with one animal, or thousands.

AG

This is just another step towards pushing out smaller farms. Most of the smaller farms aren't the problem but we will have to put the procedures in place and it will become too expensive so we will just either quit or be bought out by even bigger farms. Then only the big corporate farms will still be in business and they can put what ever price they want on their products. But by then it will be too late. I'm glad I'm as old as I am and wish I had been born 50 years sooner. I feel bad for the generations coming, it may be a tough row to hoe.

The guy who finds a way to turn a hazardous byproduct into something of value could make a lot of money.

In our neighborhood, lots of 2300 head hog barns going up. Sat thru presentation by high up DNRrepresentative 2 years ago on implementation of Iowa's nutrient management strategy, gave me the willies. I wouldn't put one up at all. His take on it was that it won't meet its goals (45percent reduction in n and p in 4years. )Asked question then what? EPA mandated soil testing ,any soil testing over medium will not be allowed any manure or fertilizer application until soil tests in low range . Inventory of livestock and manure produced. Quota allowing you to buy extra nutrients if your soil tests allows it. My opinion, large and medium-sized livestock farms with high to medium fertility(almost all of them) will be begging for a place to dispose of their [ waste]. My small cattle operation (70 cows ,feed out calves) will be impacted . Sure don't want any more manure factories on my farm. My 2 cents worth, thanks

Was just in the last issue of Missouri Ruralist. Des Moines Iowa is suing 3 neighboring counties for what it cost Des Moines to remove the nitrates from the Racoon river so it is safe to drink

We are gonna see more and more of this as more blood sucking lawyers figure it out.

Gene

Fair oaks has both a mega dairy and pig operation. They turn their poo into natural gas.
There are companies turning sewage sludge from waste treatment plants and garbage into gas and bio diesel.
Our county landfill produces natural gas, which is used in a brick factory next to landfill.
If all these alternative energy sources are used, we may become an energy independent country.
I wouldn't want poo in my water.
Times are changing. No more business as usual. Can't pollute water and air or the EPA will take notice. Now the courts will be after you too. If it hasn't already happened, it's a matter of time before some upset neighbor with a respiratory condition sues neighbor over wood smoke.
fair oaks

There is a place near me that "cooks" cow manure in big silo type structures,,I don't know what kind of gas they produce or what they do with it, I know the haul manure in in big tanker trucks,, I always figured it was highly subsidized by the Government...I think it is a low scale thing,,I will try to find out more about it...

The family farm may very well be a thing of the
past. The tax structure is working against the
family farm.

If old farmer want to retire and his kids don't
want anything to do with the farm, then the farmer
is hit with a large cap gains tax.

(quoted from post at 10:12:35 01/18/15) I agree. Why dump extra on your land when you could potentially sell it to someone who doesn't have that resource. I don't have cattle on the place but would likely pay to have manure spread on the fields if it were made available. Ground water issues are no joke, of course. Our place has been farmed continuously since 1836. I told the folks who bought the house up by the road that, if it were me, I would take my chances with bottled water. I don't even want to think about all the things that have been applied to this ground over the last 100 years or so.

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There is a large dairy just north of you. They might be interested in space to spread manure. As far as the water, we have a lot of wells around here that have a lot of gas in them. People can light their faucets or fill a glass, it fizzes a bit anf can be lit. A degassing system can be expensive. I just put MHOG water in my wife's shop. I never realized how bad the water was, the water is a big improvement. At about $6K, it wasn't cheap, but will make the property value better.

George, FOF is an innovative group all right. They're especially innovative at grabbing all of the free money they can get. Today, for some reason they're viewed as an "industry standard" and many seem to feel that everyone should be "farming" their way.

They got at least $2.75 million in grants for their digester(s)/fueling stations:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/14934308/manure-to-power-ind-dairy-farms-delivery-trucks,

and yet another $2 million from the pork checkoff:
http://www.pork.org/checkoff-report...ckoff-break-ground-new-pork-education-center/. I don't recall FOF raising any hogs before all of this. I could be wrong, but I thought they were strictly dairy/agritourism. Suddenly they're essential in educating the public on hogs and and their way of hog farming?

AG

"Des Moines Iowa is suing 3 neighboring counties"

Let Des Moines win to set a precedent and New Orleans will be suing half the United States.

(quoted from post at 13:07:35 01/18/15) More laws, more different attitudes from the ones enforcing them,,more expense to the farmer,,and then finally more expense to the grocery store..and "Then" the public will blame the cost on the Farmer...and nothing will be gained from it all....we see this with the CDL issue, the Health care issue and anything that the Government gets involved with..(Oops I got back on my soap box again)

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Yep gay marriage, abortion, drugs, etc?

I support a nutrient management program here on the farm. In Michigan it's called "MAEAP". To me, it only makes sense to be a good shepherd of the land, and to put back what it is you take out.

There's a big push by veegans to ban beef altogether. I heard Friday that our fearless leader has been talking to the U.N. to ban beef because beef farts cause global warming, so HE says. The veegans and his wife get what they want, everyone eating garbage that they don't like, and he gets what he wants, our bank accounts fleeced in the name of fake man caused global warming.

Cool. I'll be long dead before our nation totally stops being what it once was, what our founders and Constitution intended and defined.

Mark

JD you are so right! The little guys are the constant polluters, not the big guys. Large operations are required to submit manure plans. Before the manure is spread, the soil it will be applied to has to be tested. I don't know if it's required to be gridded or just random around the field tested. Mine is gridded and it costs me thousands of dollars. If I buy manure from a 'factory' farm I have to submit my soil samples to the applicator and if the samples are out of date I have to have it sampled before the applicator can apply the manure to that land.

When I had livestock I was a little guy but my yards drained directly into a county drainage ditch that goes into the Raccoon river and eventually ends up in the Mississippi. You know where some of my manure ended up after a hard rain, so I got out of it. Today if I had livestock I still might not be regulated because of the size of my operation, but some of my manure from my yards would still drain right into that ditch.

Now that big brother has decided to attack our food source for the greater good, I guess cigarettes and alcohol eradication is next and soon after that our computers will be confiscated due to their environmental hazards within. With fewer computers in our lives, less electric demand so less need for nuclear power. Coal is already in their crosshairs, so those of us who has any discretionary income might want to invest in candle making. Then the cell phones will be classified the same hazard as computers. No computers, no cell phones and my money will be on less road rage. Look at all the improvements life will be afforded thru this one simple act...smaller farms to have a more manageable manure problem, employment for all of our undocumented voters from the south, less productivity/pay from the few of us who still might be working due to less technology. Welcome to the new Amerika/third world country that is the goal of some of those in office.

It's interesting how many people think individuals shouldn't be held responsible when their actions harm others.

Even if everything you say is true the fact is these huge operations are viewed as Industrial farms by a majority of the American public and they don't like what they see.Along with GMOs and
Gov't farm subsidies the public at large has a very dim view of large scale agriculture.You fellows have lost the PR battle by throwing in with the likes of Monsanto and other mega corporations that also have a huge PR problem.Also you fellows make it
worse for yourselves by calling your customers,the American consuming public,Stupid,Idiots and such names.Why do you think locally grown and local farmers' markets are exploding in popularity? Because people will spend their $$$ on things and food they want to buy and hate to have something shoved down their throats they don't want.Take a lesson from the US automakers they ridiculed the foreign car makers in the 70's and 80's but after getting hammered in the marketplace by consumers had to change their way of doing things.

Gee, if they are going to hold farmers responsible for cow poop, when are they going to hold cities responsible when they continue to dump millions of gallons of raw human sewage into our waterways???? City of Port Huron Michigan dumps millions of gallons every time it rains, where is the outrage?

The EPA has to keep finding and inventing a new crisis in order to justify thier existence, jobs, pension and power trips.

(quoted from post at 04:29:41 01/19/15) It's interesting how many people think individuals shouldn't be held responsible when their actions harm others.

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Ya just gotta remember "Privatise profits and socialize losses."

(quoted from post at 10:25:38 01/18/15) One more step to being like other countries and we will have no rights. Every new law takes one more freedom.

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What freedom is this one taking away? The freedom to dump a foot of liquid manure on your fields twice a year so it runs out into the road, off into the neighbors' properties...

That's what one BTO was doing in my area for many years. You can't tell me that it was a GOOD thing.

(quoted from post at 15:26:47 01/19/15)

(quoted from post at 10:25:38 01/18/15) One more step to being like other countries and we will have no rights. Every new law takes one more freedom.

Click to expand...

What freedom is this one taking away? The freedom to dump a foot of liquid manure on your fields twice a year so it runs out into the road, off into the neighbors' properties...

That's what one BTO was doing in my area for many years. You can't tell me that it was a GOOD thing.

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It's taking away the freedom to dump your unwanted crap on your neighbors, and should they dare to object to tell them to stick it 'cause your lawyer is more expensive than theirs...