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Tractor Stability and Fluid Filled Tires

P

pburchett

Member
OK I have moved from what I considered relatively flat ground to mountainous terrain and I am now seeking your expertise. I plan on adjusting the old Ford 640 wheelbase to its maximum and adding fluid to the tires. Now the question of which would be the best fill level for maximum roll over resistance.
1. Fill to the 12-O-Clock valve stem position which is over the axle and possibly over the center of gravity of the tractor.

or

2. Fill to the 3-O-Clock valve stem position which will result in fluid only to the center of the axle.

Any suggestions or experience appreciated as I do not want to be a roll over statistic.
 
Only way I ever knew to fill them was to put the stem at 12 o'clock and fill them to the top of the rim.
 

I would want them filled to the 12 O-clock position.
The added weight will help lessen slippage on the hills and the liquid column height is not very significant.
CaCl would be my 1st choice..for the added weight.
You may consider loading the front tires, but not as full..they will ride rough if you fill them and not leave enough air at the top for them to spring on..
If you will be using a Bush Hog or Rear-mounted Finish mower on a 3-point, at least add good Front Weight also..
Ron.
 
If you're going to fill the tires I would fill
them to the 12 o'clock position. You can always
let it back out if needed. You will always have
more fluid below the axle than above the axle
anyway. I've been on some very steep inclines
with an IH 460 narrow front with a loader. We
never tipped a tractor over. You can take all the
precautions you can think of to prevent an
accident but you still have to have a feel for
the piece of machinery you are operating. It's
like I told my two kids when they started
driving. "When you get behind that wheel you are
a piece of that machine".
Your center of gravity may change especially if
you ad a loader or 3-pt platform carrier or
implement.
 
Normal full tire is filled to the top of the rim....that is about 3/4 of what the tire could possibly hold. Then pump to recommended tire air pressure. ie your 12 o"clock valve position. A 13.6x28 tire will take 43g water, and add 467 lbs at 5g CaCl per gallon of water. google "CaCl ballast in tires".
 
Fill em to 12:00. The last thing you want is half tires of heavy fluid sloshing around. That would be worse than empty.
 
You can follow a load chart for the size of the tire, and I thought it was common that with what those specify, you'll end up with fluid up to 10am-2pm area or 11 and 1 if using a clock face to orientate yourself. I've filled my own per the chart and the level is somewhere around there, tire pressure for mine is about 14 psi.

If you really think you are at any risk given the terrain, I would highly advise to install a seat with a belt and a roll over protective structure, there is no way I would rely on the tractors center of gravity, ballasted with loaded tires and or additional weight if the terrain was steep enough or conditions you will work in are at the threshold of beyond what the tractor is designed for, meaning slope.

Additionally, if its that much of a concern, find a way to get an LCG model, Ford made a bunch of those, 2110, 4110, early thousand series, '01 series, not sure if they made them earlier, those are well suited for slopes, and though the general purpose '00' series are very tolerant of slope, (I've run both an early 4000 and my current 850 on hills and slopes for many years with no problems), it don't take much, one mistake, something unknown or unforseen, seat and R.O.P.S, (and you must have and use a belt) is certainly the best insurance you can have to protect you from getting pinned.
 
Jerry- that"s the one I got the figures from when googling. IDK how to post that stuff. BTW- you like our cold weather?
 
Fill em to 12:00.Your tire shop will know the
correct amount.BTW, IMHO if it too steep for 'dry'
tires it is too steep for filled ones too.
 
I would talk to a tire person where you are moving to. That's going to be your best source of info.

If you have a loader on it or plan on adding one the rules for safe operation remain the same. Keep the darn thing low! Bucket way up in the air, even empty (yes I've seen guys doing it) makes a tractor much more likely to roll. ROPs may be a consideration but keep in mind that ROPs are no good without a seat belt. You can be tossed off the tractor and the ROPs can crush you.

Rick
 
I agree lower is best. One thing I notice is
tractors on the road with bucket and or bale fork
at just the correct heigth over the hood in an
accident. Why Why would anyone run with loader in
this position which would impale any one in the
vehicle??
 
I would fill tires to the 12 o'clock position (3/4 full). On a reasonable slope, extra weight far out on the uphill rear wheel helps.

Another thing that helps on slopes is good tire tread. It's no fun when a tractor's the front or rear end starts sliding down hill out of control. To me, 45 degree rear tread tires seem to hold better on side slopes than 23 degree tread, especially when pulling hard. Tri-rib front tires also hold on side slopes better than shallow tread floatation tires or turf tires.

When turning up hill on a steep slope, be careful and slow down. In a jam, I try to turn downhill, or slowly back out to get off too steep a slope.
 
If its a steep hill as in real steep you can't go
around you have to go up and down.I make hay on several places like that,that come up off of river bottoms.Would make flatlanders get a nose bleed and messy britches(LOL)
 
Good brakes would be my first priority. Without good brakes it doesn't matter how wide you set the wheels or how much fluid you put in them. Sooner or later you're going for a ride, and sooner or later, you'er going over.

These guys have all given you good advice on how much fluid, but it seems like you're going to the absolute extreme here.

Somewhere between the extremes of "do nothing" and "set it as wide as it goes and weigh 'er down to the max" lies a point of diminishing returns, where wider and heavier don't appreciably increase safety, but do appreciably reduce the utility of the tractor.

If you've got a loader bucket, or a back blade, or a moldboard plow, setting the tractor out wide will prevent implements like those from functioning efficiently. Also, fitting through doors, fence gates, and between trees can be adversely affected.

The fluid won't ever hurt anything from a safety and utility standpoint. Maybe start out wide and narrow it up as you get comfortable with the terrain and realize that the width is not necessarily.

You can be safe and be practical as well.
 
(quoted from post at 15:01:53 01/05/15)
Depends on who you ask and if they passed high school physics.
Click to expand...

Dang b&d it took you a long time to reply to one of your favorite topics. BTW did you pass high school physics??
 
I took high school physics no problem. When in
college physics were more intense, thats when I
went to nothing but 2 ply tissue paper.
 
Good points.
I'm not a fan of fluid. My jubilee is a close
cousin the 640. I use mine for mowing yard in
summer, pushing snow in winter. If I had fluid my
tires would rip up my yard. I have to chain up in
winter or go no place. Not having fluid is nice
when I trailer mine to another property. For the
most part my properties are very flat. Pushing
the tires out would be a problem too, my finish
mower is only 6 ft. The tractor is almost 6 ft.
Previous owner of my Jubilee had a loader. Can't
really do much with it. Front axle and tires
don't support lifting much, not to mention, mine
has no power steering. Previous owner had fluid.
He had to replace tires and rims, so I got a new
set of goodyears and rims. My tires will remain
dry. A 3pt plow will add down force. I have a
plow, but never use it. It sits in a flower bed,
yard art.
 
Not cold here yet - about 7 above this afternoon.
Supposed to be about -14 here tonight so a little chilly.
I do hate to hear the furnace kicking on so often.
Am doing a little experiment here tonight.
I measured out an 80/20 mix of water/anti-freeze in this container and will see what it looks like in the morning.
If it doesn't freeze hard overnight I will run that mix (or maybe 25%) in my own tires.
Our freezer is about 0 degrees and it stays liquid at that temp.
We'll see what it does tonight.

100_1926.jpg
 
Fill the normal, stabdard 3/4 full, or the 12 o'clock you
mentioned.

The stuff sloshes and doesn't work quite right if you only fill the
tire 1/2 full.

Paul
 

I run cross-ways on some banks that are an honest 30 degrees with loaded rears on my WD-45 and JD 520 with wheels set some wider, BUT..THAT is my LIMIT..and I am durned careful when I do it..!!
Wheels set wider, maybe 45 degrees would be possible but I'm NOT gonna even watch..!
I just don't care to know how much "GOAT" is in those tractors..!!
I have seen pictures in "Stuck and Troubled" a Ford tractor that had what almost looked like "Double-Wide" wheel spacings and IT had gotten away from the operator and crashed into some trees...
be Careful..!!
Ron.
 
I'd fill them full. (which is just sloshing over the rim i think, like you say, to the stem in the 12 o'clock position) I did not take physics but I'm not sure but what all the weight goes to the ground anyhow. Somebody smarter than me would have to play with that one.
 
(quoted from post at 16:28:04 01/05/15) OK I have moved from what I considered relatively flat ground to mountainous terrain and I am now seeking your expertise. I plan on adjusting the old Ford 640 wheelbase to its maximum and adding fluid to the tires. Now the question of which would be the best fill level for maximum roll over resistance.
1. Fill to the 12-O-Clock valve stem position which is over the axle and possibly over the center of gravity of the tractor.

or

2. Fill to the 3-O-Clock valve stem position which will result in fluid only to the center of the axle.

Any suggestions or experience appreciated as I do not want to be a roll over statistic.
Click to expand...

Fill them up. All of my tractors have fluid in the rear tires. It's a neccesity in the mountains here. My Ferguson TO-20 I have fluid in the front tires too. Talk about feeling uncomfortable on a hillside, when I was growing up we had a Ferguson TO-30 and it had fluid in the tires and a low center of gravity. I was about 10 I guess and they had me mowing pasture fields with a sickle mower. I was mowing the hill behind the house going across it, and the hill was so steep that the tractor was sliding down the hill sideways with me. I have no lies to tell I wanted off that thing. I figure when a tractor is that low to the ground,has fluid in the tires, and it's still sliding down the hill going crossways, it's fixing to turn over.
 
The center of gravity and the wheel spacing (track width) are the major factors that determine stability when operating on a slope. If you add weight above the center of gravity the center of gravity moves up and stability decreases. Increasing the rear track width increases stability.

I doubt that you can find any document that identifies the center of gravity location for your tractor, however it is not hard to make a good guess. If you are standing directly behind the tractor the center of gravity will be some where above the PTO - on center line with the PTO shaft but higher. To be conservative (on the safe side) lets guess it is a little above the transmission and at the seat mounting surface.

How to make a hill side tester: Standing directly behind your tractor aim the camera at the center of gravity and take a photo. Cut the bottom of the photo off even with the bottom of the rear tires to represent the tractor sitting on a level suface. Now make a plumb bob with a thumb tack, piece of string and a fishing weight (or any small weight). Stick the thumb tack through the center of gravity such that the plumb bob stays vertical when you rotate (tip) the photo.

How to use the hill side tester: Take the tester to your favorite hill side, ditch bank etc. and tip the photo until the bottom edge lines up with the slope of the hill. The plumb bob represents the weight of the tractor acting through the center of gravity. When the string touches the inside of one of the rear tires the tractor is very close to rolling over.

Why make the tester: It will illustrate the forces involved and show that a moving the rear wheels out is very significant to stability.

Now to the question of weigh: If you want to add fluid to the rear tires I would agree with several of the other posters, fill to the 12:00 position. This will provide added traction which is also important when operating on slopes. The change in the center of gravity will not be significant in comparison to setting out the rear wheels.

Enjoy your tractor....safely.
 
You got a lot of good input below, maybe more than you bargained for given your question. Not knowing how steep your hills are (I have been on hills all my life.) I would add this:

1. Since this land is new to you, can you still talk to the previous owner? What tractor did he use and how was it outfitted? Since he knows this ground what advice can he offer.
2. Keep in mind your land is not a flat plane albeit sloped. There will be pot holes, stones, gopher mounds, washouts, etc., maybe even stumps, that could get the side momentum of your tractor moving in the wrong direction. Therefore leave margin in your strategy to handle those situations. A neighbor spraying on a slope he thought he was safe on died when the upper wheel rolled over a stump (hidden in the grass) and tossed the tractor over.
3. Given your equipment there may be areas you want to stay off of and just pasture.
4. Your ability to stick to the hill will also be influenced by wetness, frost, frozen ground, etc. Tires were already mentioned. Again, leave yourself some margin.
5. I also like the ROPS comment. All my tractors have them.
6. Going up hills can be a good strategy if you have sufficient power to not have to stop and shift, traction to not dig holes, and front weight to hold the front end down.
6a. Then there is the whole experience of jack-knifing, usually experienced when either going down hill with a load behind or turning while going downhill with a load behind. Hopefully you just slide and bend your machinery and not roll.
7. I also have been on a tractor that slid sideways when cutting hay on a side hill. My Dad told me to turn down hill if I felt the tractor tipping. That sounds good in theory, luckily I never had to test it.
Good luck. Paul
 
This is an interesting concept but this hill
side tester will always overestimate the
stability since the tractor doesn't tip along
an axis parallel to the PTO shaft. It actually
tips along an axis running from the rear tire
contact patch to the front axle oscillation
point (wide front tractors) or the front tire
contact patch (tricycle tractors). The plumb
bob will cross this actual tipping line before
it crosses to the outside edge of the rear tire
when viewed from the rear since the center of
gravity is always ahead of the rear tires. The
farther forward the CG is the more discrepancy
there will be between the tester and reality.
 
(quoted from post at 20:36:52 01/05/15) This is an interesting concept but this hill
side tester will always overestimate the
stability since the tractor doesn't tip along
an axis parallel to the PTO shaft. It actually
tips along an axis running from the rear tire
contact patch to the front axle oscillation
point (wide front tractors) or the front tire
contact patch (tricycle tractors). The plumb
bob will cross this actual tipping line before
it crosses to the outside edge of the rear tire
when viewed from the rear since the center of
gravity is always ahead of the rear tires. The
farther forward the CG is the more discrepancy
there will be between the tester and reality.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct and I would compliment you on your most excellent explaination of the "tipping line". When I wrote my post I decided talk in terms of the rear tires to keep it more simple. To that end I used the inside of the rear tire as the danger point. If you actually draw the tipping line the crossing point typically corresponds roughly to the inside of the rear tire, and therefore, can be used as an approximation.

The hill tester is an approximation; after all we are guessing where the center of gravity is. However, stating it will "always over estimate stability" does not take into account the use of the inside of the rear tire.

I have edited my original post, to remove any reference to the outside of the rear tire to prevent confusion. Thank you for the critique of the post.
 
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