Road rage

Dave H (MI) · Sep 3, 2014

Just three miles from the farm outside Howell, MI. 69 year old man and 40'ish couple on their way to pick up their kids from first day of school. Somehow got into a road dispute. Somewhere down the road the younger man decided to get out of his SUV and approach the older man and was shot dead for doing so. Really bad idea getting out of a car like that. You never know how badly you have scared the other party and what he has on hand for defense. One man dead, at least one family shattered. I have a hard time blaming a 69 year old man, alone, for defending himself from some nut who storms his truck. On the other hand, if he had rolled up his windows, locked his doors and laid on the horn it is likely nothing would have happened to him. We have to really think long and hard when we "cowboy up" if actually shooting somebody is something we want in our lives. Prayers to those involved.

Super Trucker · Sep 3, 2014

Crazy stuff . I'm the other side of town and this is one of the reasons I quit carrying. If my size doesn't change there mind than I'm not going to deal with them . He did what the training tells you ..... you pull it you use it.

Rick Kr · Sep 3, 2014

Bad situation for sure. My buddy is a Livingston county deputy, he didnt have a lot of detail about it.

I believe there was a court case a few years ago the same thing happened. The jury found the shooter innocent as they believed he was cornered or trapped in his vehicle, and was defending himself. The other guy was trying to bust the glass and open the door.

Rick

Jiles · Sep 3, 2014

Like a friend of mine said--You don't mess with senior citizens!
I might add that many people will make the statement " I will shoot and ask questions later"
I had a similar belief, many years ago, but when actually confronted with gun pointed and finger on trigger, I didn't fire even though it would have been self defense!

Billy Shafer · Sep 3, 2014

My brother in law. Is one of those hot tempered guys. After two broken arms and a cracked jaw. He learned not to pick on old men. They have ways of making up for being old. Plus axe handles can break bone.

rrlund · Sep 3, 2014

Had a similar incident here recently. A couple pulled off the road to let a car go by that had been tailgating them. They got up the road a little and the guy had stopped and gotten out and was standing by the road with a gun. They managed to get away and notify the cops. They arrested the guy. No shots fired in that case.

jimg.allentown · Sep 3, 2014

One thing that you can believe:
Rolling up the windows, locking the doors, and laying on the horn will offer VERY LITTLE protection. Ever see how thin the door glass is on modern cars?
Somebody of superior physical size or strength storms my car, and if I am armed, that intruder is SHOT. I would NOT wait until I was beat half to death!
On one occasion, I was returning from a shooting range. Some guy in a Pontiac was going really slow in the left lane. I passed him on the right. He immediately accelerated, passed me, and cut in front of me and hit the brakes. I moved to the other lane, hit the gas, and passed him again. This time, I gave him no opportunity to pass. When I stopped at a stop light, he got out of his car and came towards me. I opened the window, laid the barrel of my stainless .44 mag on the top of the door sill, and when he reached me, I said "may I help you?" He quickly retreated to his car and left me alone after that. By rights, I could have shot him.

Cas · Sep 3, 2014

I had an incident a while ago that made me think about some protection. Bought a fire extinguisher
(powder kind) and I keep it between the two seats in my pickup. Figure it would at least buy me sometime to figure out what to do. Dialing 911 in this area would require a 30 minute response time.

Geo-TH,In · Sep 3, 2014

I really don't feal sorry for anyone who jumps out of their car and comes after another person. Look what happened to Tony. You don't jump in front of a moving car either.

Jiles · Sep 3, 2014

(quoted from post at 19:14:24 09/03/14) I had an incident a while ago that made me think about some protection. Bought a fire extinguisher
(powder kind) and I keep it between the two seats in my pickup. Figure it would at least buy me sometime to figure out what to do. Dialing 911 in this area would require a 30 minute response time.

A few days ago, I was riding with a friend in his truck. He opened up the center console and I noticed a large can of Wasp & Hornet Spray.
He stated it was for protection and that he had one at every door in his home.
He wasn't talking about W&H spraying.
He also said "in the car or truck, you have to be careful of the interior heat that could affect it"!

farmerwithmutt · Sep 3, 2014

One thing i pass on to women is hair spray a lot of women
dont realise they have something better then mace or
pepper spray get a shot of that in the eyes you can then
have them at your mercy

JerryS · Sep 3, 2014

I'm too fat and arthritic to fight or run, and I'm too old to have much to lose. But I'm not gonna let some hot-head kick my butt. I'll drop him if I have to.

LAA · Sep 3, 2014

Sounds like he needed shooting, probably needed it for a long time, I would not bet that the family is shattered, they might be relieved.

Mike (WA) · Sep 3, 2014

Well, the old guy was carrying, who's to assume the young hothead was not? Roll up the windows, lock the doors, lay on the horn, and the young guy shoots you through the window. No thanks.

I'm in JerryS's camp- never was a great fighter, and at 66, if someone starts a fight with me, I won't be foolish enough to use my fists.

37chief · Sep 3, 2014

I would think just the sight of a gun pointed in the direction of the oncoming guy would stop him. Even firing off a round above his head would get his attention. He would think to him self here is a crazy old coot, and do a about face back to his car. stan

2x4 · Sep 3, 2014

a wise old man once told me "If you're dumb enough to pull a gun you better be smart enough to use it."
From all I've seen, he was right.

1130Leo · Sep 3, 2014

Sounds like a bad situation all around, however I will never stop carrying, I have it for one reason, to protect myself and my family. I do not know the particulars in this incident, However, if the shooter was not blocked in and if the other guy was only approaching the vehicle, not sure how it will work our for the shooter. I always attempt to avoid those confrontations. That said, if he was in a position where he felt threatened for his life, he is justified in his actions, the victim could easily have continued on his way and not been harmed. Sad that people think they have to confront people rather than get over it and move on.

Wile E · Sep 3, 2014

If it goes to trial the old guy could get some time if the younger guy did not have a weapon. I know the CPL says "if your life is in danger" But the prosecuting attorney may get him, if the younger guy was unarmed. (I do agree with pulling the trigger if his life was in danger)

I carry pepper spray, Legal, stops assailants, no permit needed. I just wish I could have a larger canister of it.

carl reitnauer · Sep 3, 2014

The sheriffs department locally reccomends wasp spray to ladies that are gun shy. Several buttholes have been slowed down enough for the cavalry to arrive.

mab570diesel · Sep 3, 2014

sounds to me like this fella ought to go to prison,shooting for someone approaching the vehicle sounds very extreme,if they had no weapons.and the shooter may have been in the wrong in the first place,I know some older people don't belong on the roads anymore,I've had more than one close call with an elderly driver.them being at fault.and the i don't have anything to lose attitude is a very poor one,what if an older person had that very same attitude towards your grandchildren or children,i don't think anyone would like to be on the wrong side of that reasoning.but i will say i am 100% for self-defense even if deadly just don't assume this guy is justified because he is older.

Goose · Sep 3, 2014

A banjo does well in a brawl. Although it's kinda hard on the banjo.

Don't ask me how I know.

DaninKansas · Sep 3, 2014

Until you get someone high on meth (isn't that about all criminals anymore) that isn't fazed by some chemicals half as toxic as what he willing injects or inhales into his own body for fun. They'll take that can of wasp spray and beat them with it.

Ellis Kinney · Sep 3, 2014

Never pick a fight with an old man, if he is too old to fight he will just kill you. Ellis

1130Leo · Sep 3, 2014

I just read a report that was in the detroit free
press, sounds like the old guy had passed them,
apparently the victim did not like being passed and
when they came to a stop light he got out and
approached him, I would think weather or not he is
charged will have to do with weather or not he was
actually beating on the guy's window, or still
approaching. Regardless, the outcome is very
unfortunate.

Dave H (MI) · Sep 3, 2014

Well, the various deputies we have contact with were gossips today. The story is that the older man was a bit of a n'er do well himself. He was tailgating the SUV in town and when it opened to two lanes he pulled around them and in front and jumped on the brakes to be a SOB. Then took off but at the next light the SUV driver decided he needed to get out and, per witnesses, bang on the windows. Older man shot him in the head. This was not an isolated spot but a well developed area. Howell is the county seat and has a couple of large shopping centers right down the road in Genoa Twp, where this actually occurred. What a surprise to come home from your first day of school and Daddy has been shot in the head. Puts a whole new spin on last day of summer. The kids will get the worst of this. Sad.

buickanddeere · Sep 3, 2014

(quoted from post at 10:43:59 09/03/14) Just three miles from the farm outside Howell, MI. 69 year old man and 40'ish couple on their way to pick up their kids from first day of school. Somehow got into a road dispute. Somewhere down the road the younger man decided to get out of his SUV and approach the older man and was shot dead for doing so. Really bad idea getting out of a car like that. You never know how badly you have scared the other party and what he has on hand for defense. One man dead, at least one family shattered. I have a hard time blaming a 69 year old man, alone, for defending himself from some nut who storms his truck. On the other hand, if he had rolled up his windows, locked his doors and laid on the horn it is likely nothing would have happened to him. We have to really think long and hard when we "cowboy up" if actually shooting somebody is something we want in our lives. Prayers to those involved.

The crazy old man had no business shooting first and asking questions later.
It's idiots like that that give the anti gunners ammo.

Mark - IN. · Sep 3, 2014

That's funny sort of.

Years back I knew a guy, not particularly smart, beyond cocky, in his upper 20's or maybe early 30's. Dave, a big guy that worked for the railroad that would come into the bar Saturday evenings and pick on people. A bully. He knew me, I knew him. He stayed away from me, I stayed away from him. So one Saturday night he comes in and there's a fella in his late 50's, early 60's I figure. Stocky, muscular guy spoke with a German accent. For whatever reason, Dave started with him and wouldn't stop. Then Dave got in the guy's face and challenged him. One punch, and down Dave went chin first. A few minutes later, Dave realizes what happens, gets up and goes at the fella again. Another one in Dave's chin, and he didn't get up for some while, and when he did, he was walked outside for his own good. Never saw Dave in that bar ever again. Never saw that older fella either, but more importantly, Dave moved on to bother others somewhere else.

Mark

wisbaker · Sep 3, 2014

I don't know, I don't know all the facts. I'm only 55 and recently worked for six months at a local manufacturing plant. Had a bunch of young cocky guys who liked to push everyone around and act like they knew everything, didn't care much for them. Another "hobby" of them was to try to pi55 people off. If your over 40 and put up with enough of these these young men who seem to have an overdose of testosterone you my tend to act a little differently when they confront you. Like I saw the other day "Why do I carry? because I'm to young to die and to old to get my butt kicked"

showcrop · Sep 3, 2014

(quoted from post at 07:43:59 09/03/14) Just three miles from the farm outside Howell, MI. 69 year old man and 40'ish couple on their way to pick up their kids from first day of school. Somehow got into a road dispute. Somewhere down the road the younger man decided to get out of his SUV and approach the older man and was shot dead for doing so. Really bad idea getting out of a car like that. You never know how badly you have scared the other party and what he has on hand for defense. One man dead, at least one family shattered. I have a hard time blaming a 69 year old man, alone, for defending himself from some nut who storms his truck. On the other hand, if he had rolled up his windows, locked his doors and laid on the horn it is likely nothing would have happened to him. We have to really think long and hard when we "cowboy up" if actually shooting somebody is something we want in our lives. Prayers to those involved.

Dave are you trying to undo Dave2's work here? He was on this board here for what? Four years? trying to spread his message of Cowboy UP! Anyone annoys you beat the cr@p out of them.

da.bees · Sep 3, 2014

(quoted from post at 20:56:26 09/03/14)

Dave are you trying to undo Dave2's work here? He was on this board here for what? Four years? trying to spread his message of Cowboy UP! Anyone annoys you beat the cr@p out of them.

Click to expand...

peaking of stirring up trouble,you could have talked all day without mentioning Dave2. :lol: [/b:36c1f639f7]

RodinNS · Sep 3, 2014

Supposing that's how it all went down, I'd wager that would constitute a second degree murder charge 'here'. IIRC, that would get you life without parole for 20...

Rod

Spook · Sep 3, 2014

They ought to lock his old hillbilly azz up.

howdy1960 · Sep 4, 2014

I'm sad for the family.
My former step-father always said 'if you pull a gun on me better use it'. He walked away from H*lls Angels back in the 60s. Now in his late 60s with many physical problems I still wouldn't want him hitting me with his hamhock (wedding band was a 15) nor pointing his .357 in my direction!

MarkB_MI · Sep 4, 2014

Road rage incidents involving guns are pretty common in Michigan. I'm not aware of any case where, if the person who used the gun was caught, that person was not charged and convicted of a serious crime. I'm sure somebody has pulled a gun and gotten off; but I can't remember such a case. I don't think the DA will have any choice but to charge the shooter; whether or not the shooter's attorney can convince a jury he acted in self-defense remains to be seen. Even if the shooter beats the criminal charges, the family of the deceased can still come after him with a wrongful death suit and take everthing he owns.

It's never a good idea to confront an erratic driver. You never know if the guy is crazy, hopped-up, armed or all three. The deceased may a very bad choice and paid with his life. He could have reported the other driver to the police, which very possibly would have resulted in the other driver losing his concealed pistol license (assuming the guy had a CPL). Instead, he made a choice that left him dead on the road.

Bret4207 · Sep 4, 2014

I'm 100% in favor of people carrying if they want to and legally can. However, I also have no illusions about the idiots out there. When you have 2 morons acting out something bad is going to happen. I'm not going to say if I think anyone was right or wrong for shooting since I don't have all the facts, but people should stop and think before acting and that goes for both sides.

Thoughts and prayers to the deceased family, they are the ones bearing the hard part of this.

mkirsch · Sep 4, 2014

Of course all the discussion will be about taking guns away from law-abiding citizens, when the REAL lesson to be taken away from this incident is:

Don't jump out and bum rush another car in a fit of road rage, no matter what the other driver did to you. What you run into could be deadly.

Billy NY · Sep 4, 2014

When you think about the possible scenarios, potential arguments, disputes while driving your vehicle, all of it is over nothing, so people want to rage on each other and escalate it into a situation that can injure or kill, the whole thing is stupidity and a lack of self control, I don't care what happens, get over it and keep moving, its all foolishness. If you are attacked or fear same, well you have rights, and should do as you see fit being in a calm state of mind, but most times both parties are equally involved, the stupidity factor plays a significant role here.

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