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Worker's pay

3

37chief

Well-known Member
Location
California
There is a man living on our place. He does odd jobs for the neighborhood. I have been paying him 20.00 an hour for doing weed mowing with a string trimmer (weddie) I usually round off his time to the nearest hour, or half hour in his favor. Now he wants to be paid for the time sitting in the truck going to jobs. Think I should pay him for seat time? Stan
 
most of the contractors in this area get their labor to meet at the job to avoid that . he can't be that good of grass cutter
 
Casual Laborers are a sore subject for me... Wait a while for them.. They finally get in the truck.. Want you to stop, buy them breakfast, a big Mt. Dew, and a pack of smokes..Finally get started and work an hour or 2.. Then they expect you to buy lunch, and once the eat, they remember something they need to do, so you have to take them home. 4 to 6 hours pay for an hour or 2 of work.. If I cannot do it all by myself, it is cheaper to just hire it done..
 
Do you charge the customer to go to the job? Around here, most contractors(whether construction, welding, etc.) get paid travel one way. You're already paying him $20, while everybody else is lucky to get $12. How far do you normally drive to a job?
 
A worker should be paid from the time he reports at his assigned work place till he leaves his assigned work place.

If you tell him we have a job tomorrow.
Meet me at my driveway at 7am
You get to the cutting job at 8am and finish at 4pm
You drop him off in your driveway at 5pm
He should be paid from 7am to 5pm

On the other hand if you tell him tomorrows job is at 555 first st meet me there at 8am and you work to 4pm he should be paid from 8 to 4
 
If his time is devoted to doing something for you, then yes, by all means he should be paid whether he's doing something constructive, or just driving.

He can't be making money on jobs for other people while he's driving somewhere for you.

It's up to you to set an hourly rate that accounts for "down time" like that.
 
John, I agree with you.

I once had a guy to offer me a job, you showed up at his place and then drive one hour. You work 10 hours, then drive back another hour to his place (He provides vehicle). He wanted to pay for a 10 hour work day. Essentially, you gave him 8 hours per week of your time. 4 day work-week.

He can't keep people.

The way I see it is, once I'm in a company vehicle, I should be paid for my time.

Greg
 
This guy gets $20 an hour to run a lawn mower and a line trimmer?

Can I have that job. A low skilled job such as that and he is being paid $20 an hour.........WTF did I do wrong by going to trade school. Minimum wage is $7.20 an hour, being paid $14 an hour to cut grass is a dam good wage.
 
Wile E- We don't know the whole story yet from 37Chief. Seems there are too many variables and unknowns.

One short time I worked for a guy that subcontracted. I provided my own tools and vehicle to get to job $10 per hour (year 2006).

If I burned up a tool it was my dime. Blades, bits, etc. were at my expense. Nobody made me work for him but, that was the only job around.

I think we need the rest of the story from 37Cheif before we can draw any conclusions.

Greg
 
I would be dipped in chicken poop before I paid someone $20.00 an hour to weed whack. I bet it's your weed whacker and fuel he's using too? Nuts to that.
 
If he is working out of your shop, using your tools, and driving your vehicle to the work site, then only pay his drive time from your shop and returning to your shop. If he drives his own vehicle to the job sites, then his time plus mileage (60 cents per mile?) from your shop and to your shop would be appropriate.

If he is working out of his home, with his own tools and vehicle, then time and mileage from and to his home would be appropriate.

It all depends if there are others available who will do the job as well for less total money. Now-a-days, $20 straight time with no benefits for dependable part-time on-call labor that does not need training or supervision is a bargain in most places.
 
Stan,

I worked for a company installing hardwood floors commercially in the early 90's.It was a travel job would usually ride two or three in the van.He wanted to pay only one way for travel.Some of these trips required a 24 hour plus ride to get there.

It wasn't fun missing out on the money on the return trip.

Vito
 
37Chief- WOW! I find myself on both sides of the fence on this one. What a conundrum! While paying someone to weed-eat your yard using his equipment, fuel and vehicle to get to job is not outrageous. I also find my self questioning why someone charging "seat time" to go to someones property to rotary cut the brush. :)

It takes no special skills or CDL to drive a pick-up and trailer hauling said tractor. Heck, I know high school drop-outs that can take a tractor where it would make your skin crawl just to watch.

Although, I understand, there is a big investment difference between a truck, trailer, tractor and rotary cutter versus a grass trimmer and lawn mower, plus higher repair costs for the tractor.

Still, though, I question...Why is it customary for one to charge 'seat time' and not the other?

You raised a very good point.

Thanks Greg
 
Here's the deal. When I was younger I could run a weed wacker with the best of them. Pushing 72 I just can't do that labor anymore. If I didn't have the weeds trimmed where the tractor can't reach I would have have to give up some good jobs. With what I get payed to mow weeds I can afford to hire someone who knows what they are doing. I can leave this guy alone all day, and come back and know the job will be finished. I just think he is getting a little pushie to want to be payed to ride in my truck to a job.. Stan
 
And just how much skill does it take to be a farmer? I was driving a tractor in front of the baler at age 5 and milking cows by age 7 running a combine at age 10. Learned to build fence, fork manure, and tinker on equipment in between times. I do not think you would call that skilled. The farmer of today is so un skilled they can not drive their tractors. Got to have auto steer. I have worked in construction where there were a lot of equipment drivers but not many operators. I also have a mowing landscape business. I am not putting a unskilled operator on a $20,000 dollar mower in a place that requires a 6 million liability policy just to be on the site. This person may be an operator and not just a driver.
 
If I understand correctly the guy is going from jobsite to jobsite with you (or maybe meeting you at the jobsites). If that's the case, yes he should be paid for his travel time.

Now if you told him to meet you at one jobsite, and that's the only site he'd be working at that day, then no, he probably wouldn't have travel pay coming.....unless it was a fair distance away, then maybe pay him travel one way.
 
37Chief- You have an 'employee' that you take to jobs. It's not just your yard as was 'sorta kinda implied'.

Yes, he should clock in once he enters your door and clock out when he leaves your place. I "think" you may be breaking Federal Labor Laws although I'm not sure.

Are you holding out local, state and federal taxes? Along with FICA and other deductions or is he hired as "contract labor"? Where you just hand him a 1099 at the end of the year...or are you paying him under the 'table' and with-holding anything or filing the paperwork?

Too many unanswered questions...

Greg
 
37Chief- It sounds to me, again. like you are trying to weasel a dime out of someone. Just a few days ago you posted about your "hoarder" brother and I feel you pretty well got slammed on that one as many posters said "just move his stuff to his side of the property". Some were much more colorful suggestions about you and your actions.

As for the guy wanting to be paid "seat time", either pay it or adjust his pay accordingly. That is up to you.

By the way you have posted your responses, I suspect that you are running a 'business' under the radar. Thus, trying to avoid paying taxes or anything else for you and your employee.

The person coming out on the 'short end of the stick' is the employee and the taxpayers.

Greg
 
Here"s what I do. My employee gets paid from the time he shows up, traveling to job site, through lunch, and till we hop in the truck to go home. He does not get paid to ride home. In other words, he gets paid from the time he shows up, till we knock off work.
 
Chief37-Also, I don't see any 'Lawn Mowing" business being able to pay their "weed trimmers" $20.00 an hour. Unless you only work him an hour or two a day, and the rest of the time he sits in the truck.

So, I guess, I'll be first to call BULLCHIT.

Greg
 
oliver power-If he shows up to work, I'm assuming he drove to work, then you take him home. How does he get his vehicle back for the next days drive to work?

Greg
 
I've never had a job that I didn't get paid from the time I showed up until the time I left. It only seems fair to pay a guy for when he's not doing his own thing. $20/hr is a very good rate in my eyes for weed whacking though. The right answer is probably somewhere between $20/hr and paying all day.
 
I think you are paying him REAL well. I assume the $20 is tax free. Is he paying room and board also?
 
My business is up front I pay my taxes just like everyone else who runs a business. Give me your fax number.I will send my return to you. What really bugs me is people like you reading something into my posts that isn't correct. I just think paying someone a good wage sitting on the seat beside me using my equipment shouldn't worry about being payed for riding 10 minutes to a job. About my brother we get along good we just argue about his junk. There again people like you reading things into my post about my brother that wasn't correct. by the time you guys finished reading into my post, I was hating my brother, and wishing him gone. I just wish his stuff was gone. Stan
 
I hire occasional workers to help me with tearouts.
I generally give them about $16/hr.
If they are real good workers I will pad their hours a bit so they get a little bonus.
They don't get paid for the commute to the job or from it.
Only windsheild time they get is when we are hauling the debris to the transfer station or if we have to go pick up a big bunch of materials.
I generally will buy them lunch, coffee, pop, etc out of my own pocket.
 
Most agreements are he shows up at start time and pay starts. Work ends at jobsite and pay ends at jobsite . Ride home is unpaid ride home. So going paid ,going home , not paid. Fair to both parties as far as I can tell. If he wants to be paid for ride home then he would show up on job in his vehicle at start time and drive his own car home unpaid anyway. Tell him just be glad your workin'.
 
37Chief said- "My business is up front I pay my taxes just like everyone else who runs a business. Give me your fax number.I will send my return to you. What really bugs me is people like you reading something into my posts that isn't correct. I just think paying someone a good wage sitting on the seat beside me using my equipment shouldn't worry about being payed for riding 10 minutes to a job. About my brother we get along good we just argue about his junk. There again people like you reading things into my post about my brother that wasn't correct. by the time you guys finished reading into my post, I was hating my brother, and wishing him gone. I just wish his stuff was gone. Stan "

WOWI don't know what to say to you 37Chief...but, wishing your brother to be gone!...I'll pray for you

Greg
 
I just decided there is something about me that gets your shorts waded up. When I can charge someone what I do using my 6 ft mower to mow for an hr. I can afford to pay someone to cut around rocks, and trees for an hr. @ 20.00 If I told you what I charge you wouldn't believe that either. Stan
 
37Chief said- "I just decided there is something about me that gets your shorts waded up."

No, my shorts are fine. You should pay your guy for 'seat time'. If you don't want to pay $20 an hour then reduce his pay accordingly.

No problems from me. But, if you trust the guy and like his work....Like you said "When I can charge someone what I do using my 6 ft mower to mow for an hr. I can afford to pay someone to cut around rocks, and trees for an hr. @ 20.00 If I told you what I charge you wouldn't believe that either. Stan"

But you refuse to pay him "seat time" for a 10 minute ride to the next job?



Chief37-"I just think paying someone a good wage sitting on the seat beside me using my equipment shouldn't worry about being payed for riding 10 minutes to a job."

Greg
 
Would he even have any way to get a half hour away to the job by himself or is he dependent on your vehicle and your driving him there? If that is the case then let him know he is already being compensated in his wage. Or you could pay him travel time but require he use that time to eat lunch and apply towards his break time. You are on shaky ground with him anyway if he gets hurt or something in his eye and you don't have him on payroll and workmans comp because it sounds like he taking for granted just what you are doing for him and once someone gets that "you owe me" attitude , watch out for legal ramifications. What starts out as two people helping each other out can and has gotten ugly. Be careful.
 
Chief, I think it depends on a couple things. How many hours a day does he work and how far apart are the jobs? A normal job working for a landscaper, the employee would be paid driving between jobs if he was to work from say 8-5. He'd have time off for lunch where he wasn't paid. I'm guessing you don't charge travel time to your customers? Many landscapers and contractors do. $20/hr. is most likely more than he would make at a golf course or landscaping firm. Running a weed wacker all day is hard work though. I'd say if the jobs are less than 15 minutes away, just pay him and if the job is say 30 minutes away, tell him you aren't making any money either. If you have 3 jobs in a day that are all close together, just pay him straight time. If they're far apart pay for only one trip. If he only works 2 or 3 hours a day, I'd probably pay him when travelling. If he gives you any grief, ask if he'd prefer you pay him by the job and round his time off to the minute or tell him he's only getting paid so much for the job. Sounds like you've got a few people here lined up for work.
 
Stan, 20 bucks an hour is decent pay for running a string trimmer; that's fairly hard work, and if he's reliable it's worth paying that kind of money for someone you know will show up every day and work his tail off. And it's only fair to pay him for time spent traveling between jobs. But as far as paying him from the minute you leave the house, I would say no. I'm guessing he can't drive, if so you're doing him a big favor by providing him both work and transportation to the job.
 
My son is a steelworker for a non union construction company, and situations are somewhat similar.
Jobs all over, getting to the job and home is the workers
responsibility. Pay starts at the site when you start working.
even when hundreds of miles away.
They carpool to get there or stay at a local motel until the job is over.
Complaints to the boss about travel....."don't like your job?..quit"
BUT,
After the work day starts, if there is a problem at another job site that this crew needs to help out, the during the work day travel to the other job site is paid regular hourly wage.
ie, punch in......no matter what/where happens, you are paid until you punch out at the end of the day.
 
Couple of observations-

Running string trimmer is "bubba work". It's entry level work for unskilled labor, ie- minimum wage job at best. If the OP is paying the guy $20.00 @ hour, an astounding rate IMO, and if the guy is complaining (as I read it) about not getting paid to drive from his home to his job site, then I'd simply tell him no.

Some people here seem to be reading what the OP said and followed up with and get the idea he hates his brother and wants him gone. That's not at all what I read. What I read was that SOME POSTERS here took what the OP said and made it into him hating his brother, etc. Once again the lack of understanding between posters gives a false impression.
 
When its all said and done its whether the fellow is worth to you the extra $$$ and can you replace him at that rate with someone else that does as good of a job.Look at it this way he could slow down 10 to 20 percent or his replacement be that much slower and it'd cost you more than
what he's asking most likely.
 
That's double what I'm paying for that kind of work. I'd sure not pay for windshield time, to me at that rate its hours worked.
 
Stan, Know how you feel about the negative comments on YT. Sad that if someone doesn't have something nice to say they should not say it.

Might think about paying for each job and not hourly. He might get more done.

Drive time is a 2 sided issue. If he is driving your truck or driving his.

Some places don't pay for a lunch break, but pay you for regular breaks.

I know loads of people who work at a factory for $12/hour. He should be happy getting $20.

People in the service business usually have a minimun charge for showing up. I know a person with a backhoe who charges a $200 delivery fee to cover his cost and travel time.

Really it's just something you need to work out with brother. Most relatives have a difficult working together, so it good that you do.
George
 
There are gonna be people on here who think you're paying him too much, even if he works for free. There are gonna be people on here who will argue with you, no matter what you post.

If you and this man have a good working relationship, you shouldn't be asking the folks here, IMHO...because nobody here has any "skin in the game." MY opinion is that if you have a good working relationship with this man, you should sit down with him and discuss the matter. Let him explain to you why he thinks he should be paid for "seat time." Then, if his explanation is reasonable, discuss what YOUR thoughts are on the subject...then the two of you come to either a meeting of the minds if you reach an agreement, or a parting of the ways if you can't come to an agreement. And I express it this way because, if you can't come to an agreement but he still works for/with you, one or the other of you is going to harbor some resentment...and that can poison the working relationship.

Just MY thoughts, and ONLY because you asked. And I expect a lot of folks to disagree with me, simply because some folks would argue with Jesus Christ himself [whom I'm definitely not] just because they like to argue, and other folks because they believe they are never wrong [not me, 'cause I'm married...so I spend at least half my time being wrong].
 
(quoted from post at 09:33:50 05/24/14) Couple of observations-

Running string trimmer is "bubba work". It's entry level work for unskilled labor, ie- minimum wage job at best. If the OP is paying the guy $20.00 @ hour, an astounding rate IMO, and if the guy is complaining (as I read it) about not getting paid to drive from his home to his job site, then I'd simply tell him no.

Some people here seem to be reading what the OP said and followed up with and get the idea he hates his brother and wants him gone. That's not at all what I read. What I read was that SOME POSTERS here took what the OP said and made it into him hating his brother, etc. Once again the lack of understanding between posters gives a false impression.
Click to expand...

Dead on.
 
construction type or related work should get paid road time one way. If primarily working on location, they should get paid from get there time to leave time minus lunch hour. $20 an hour for running a weed eater sounds a little steep to me. Not sure I would want to add any extra perks to that hourly rate. I hope he is furnishing his own weed eater and so on at that price. If not, your overpaying him as it is. I have a part time farm job, and I only make $11.50 an hour, no perks, no benefits. This guy probly really should charge by the yard/job and not by the hour and have his road time in his opinion figured in if he thinks he is entittled. Yard workers in my area ussually charge by the job.
 
Buzzman72,
I agree with you 100%. You've proved that by the posts on here. Most will argue about the sun rising and setting,if given a chance.
LOU
 
No. I hire a retired union mechanic for part time work. Started at $15/hr a few years ago but now about $20/hr. Great guy and he was about the only one that showed up after the tornado; worked a bunch for free until I said no more and after that he was paid. I provide transportation to/from farm and don't pay for seat time.
 
Just to put some perspective on this wage business- talked to next door neighbor yesterday, a union carpenter. At present the job market here is so bad he's working for $25.00 @ hour and driving 45 miles to work and he's happy to have the work at all. That's here in Northern NY. Maybe other places pay a lot more for unskilled labor?
 
$20 an hour for lawn maintenance work is on the high side but not unheard of. I know some lawn maintenance contractors that pay some of their help nearly that much. One in particular requires his workers to be on his shop property at 10 minutes before 7:00. If they are not on his property by then, they get sent home. His workers leave for their respective jobsites promptly at 7:00.
He pays for their 15 minute morning and afternoon breaks. His workers get an unpaid lunch break. They are paid from 7:00 AM until they finish their work day back at the shop.
 
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