Purchase of another tractor .

jimwaldhaus · Apr 4, 2014

Thank you all for previous responses on request for suggestions. Am trying to refine what would be best for my application. I will be moving a large amount of dirt off one property to another .I think that a skip loader type tractor is correct application for what I want. I would appreciate any input as to what brands are recommended . What tractor do you think lasts longest with a minimum of repair/maintenance and has good parts availability. Which are used by industry/contractors
that are cost effective. Thanks for any input.

Geo-TH,In · Apr 4, 2014

There are too many variables to say what will work for you. How high is your truck? How much can your truck haul? What kind of dirt? I've had hard dry clay that I have to use backhoe to bust it up before I could scoop it up.

I've tried to get a scoop of soft sugar like sand and my front wheels sink in sand. That's where a rear ballast located behind rear wheels is priceless to transfer weight to rear wheels.

Anonymous-0 · Apr 4, 2014

You mean a skid loader? If so, plenty of decent machines. If loading into trucks I would recommend an extended reach version rather than the base radial arm machine. But if only digging, the radial arm machine will give you more breakout force and should be cheaper. Assume you aren't planning on using hydraulic powered attachments so not necessary to get a high flow machine. If you will rent/use hydraulic attachments the high flow units are just a better fit/much faster. I worked on these machines before retiring and at that time used Case machines were the best value. Really like the Cats but likely too expensive for your needs. Older Gehls had a lot of electrical problems so unless updated would stay away form them. JD went thru several interations before finally ending up building their designed machines in Dubuque Iowa, so might be a little leary of the early orphan machines although very likely could cross reference parts with the orginal manufacturer.

rrlund · Apr 4, 2014

Are you talking something similar to this? That's what I'd be looking for if I remember your original post correctly.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 4, 2014

No, this is way to big. I plan on keeping whatever I purchase to use on acreage after moving the dirt.
I will pull a disc with tractor and do other jobs
to farm this land .I am interested in something like
a Massey Ferguson 50 ex or perhaps a Ford 545d .
I think a tractor with a clutch would be easier for me to repair as I would have to go to someone to have a automatic trans. repaired. The Ford 545d I believe is automatic.Maybe a John Deere 210a or some other brand such as Case .The dirt is adobe and sand I am in the delta in California

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

I remember the OP's original post as well and agree he needs a [b:c99b6bf0d9]MUCH[/b:c99b6bf0d9] bigger machine than what he's considering. I'd be looking for a good mid size crawler loader or wheel loader and a tandem axle dump truck as MINIMAL acceptable equipment for the job.
As I recall the loader is needed to remove a 300' X 75' X 10' high hill, truck the dirt 4 miles and use for fill there.
Skid loaders are very useful machines, but using one for a job like that is like using a teaspoon to fill a wheelbarrow.

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

(quoted from post at 21:57:07 04/04/14) No, this is way to big. I plan on keeping whatever I purchase to use on acreage after moving the dirt.
I will pull a disc with tractor and do other jobs
to farm this land .I am interested in something like
a Massey Ferguson 50 ex or perhaps a Ford 545d .
I think a tractor with a clutch would be easier for me to repair as I would have to go to someone to have a automatic trans. repaired. The Ford 545d I believe is automatic.Maybe a John Deere 210a or some other brand such as Case .The dirt is adobe and sand I am in the delta in California

Actually that's not too big. It's about just right.
The Ford 545 is an excellent tractor for landscape work. It's WAY TOO SMALL for the project you described. Why not buy a machine capable of the task you intend to use it for (moving a big hill) then selling it when that project is done and get a tractor suitable for your farming needs? We're just trying to keep you from making a big/expensive mistake.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 4, 2014

No, out here in California a tractor with Loader on front and box scraper on back is called a skip loader. I think something around 60 to 70 horsepower
will work .I just do not want to over use and destroy machinery because it is to small.Hopefully
a machine that is tried and true can easily accomplish the task at hand and still be used for years to come.What brand and model is what my inexperience leaves me uninformed.Case ,John Deere,
Ford, Massey Ferguson , International, Kubota,
I do not know what is cost effective and reliable.Also if in the event something needs repair which models and manufacturers still have parts readily available . Can I buy something older that parts are still available for and so keep my purchase price down . That money tree I planted is still not bearing any fruit so I do not have lots of money to buy something that will not be a good investment . Thanks , Jim

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

Look at it like this....they make tractors in many types and sizes for a reason. They're built to perform certain tasks. While some can handle jobs beyond what they were intended to do, they won't do those jobs as time and cost effectively as a machine that was designed for that task. Some won't be able to do the job at all. Will a 545 do the job you have in mind? Maybe, maybe not. It certainly wouldn't be a cost effective choice. They were built to pull a box scraper or landscape rake.

David G · Apr 4, 2014

Front end loader and dump truck.

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

I don't know if Kubota has anything in the size range you need. As far as I know the Ford industrial stuff from the early 80's has good parts support. I really think you need to rethink this.
My money tree isn't producing either. If I was going to undertake a project like you described before I'd be looking for a Case 850, 855,1150 or 1155 crawler loader, a Ford A66 wheel loader or comparable size Case or Deere wheel loader. Or a Clark/Volvo loader, and an old highway department tandem axle dump.
You should be able to pick up an older machine with some useful life in it for a reasonable amount, complete your project, then sell it and recoup all or most of your money.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 4, 2014

Pops, I hear what you are saying and big equipment
such as RRLUND showed in the picture would definitely get the job done sooner . The problem is once you spend the amount of money to buy such a machine it is extremely hard to justify keeping it. To rent or pay someone else to do the work is also expensive . I already have a tandem axle trailer to be pulled by a 1 ton Ford truck . The sidewalls on trailer are approximately 5 feet above the ground level. I agree a good midsize tractor with a loader will do the job .A skip loader is maybe more than what is needed . I do not expect to be done with this task quickly .I will move dirt a day at a time as time allows till I complete the job. Hopefully whatever I buy will hold up and I wont be spending lots of time in repairs . Thanks, for your advise . I am listening to what every one is telling me and trying to determine from the input what is affordable ,practical, reliable and has parts availability . Thanks again ,Jim

rrlund · Apr 4, 2014

If you want to farm with it,I still recommend what I did last time you posted then. If that 2-30 White is too small,I'd move on up to a 1370 White or the Oliver version,a 1365. Definite advantage to FWA,but price might be an issue with other brands. Those Fiat built Oliver and Whites are about bulletproof when you get in to the later ones.

sixtyninegmc · Apr 4, 2014

do you have much experience with dirt work? The hill you are talking about is around 8300 yards, with fluff factor (compacted dirt fluffs up and expands up to 10% when dug) you are looking at 9000 yards. Even hauling with a 10 yard end dump, 900 possibly overweight loads. Loading by yourself with a decent size loader (966 cat?) you would have a heck of a time averaging better than 2 trips/hour. By the time you figure fueling/greasing and repairs, over 60 10 hour days. That is with a dump truck and a 966. To be suited to what you are doing, I would say a 966, 3 side-dumps, and a D6 pushing off at the dump site. Get done in under a week with a lot less broken iron.

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

Jim, I doubt you could justify keeping it. That's why I suggested selling it when the project is done.

I have a Ford 555 backhoe. It's the next size bigger tractor than the skip loader you mentioned. I wouldn't consider using it for that project.

A 545 probably has a 3/4 yard bucket. You're looking at around 5000 buckets full to load that dirt.
Every time you hit the pile it puts stress on the machine. Many new operators will spin the tires when getting a loader bucket full of dirt. Do that 5000 times and you've put a lot of wear and tear on that machine.

Pops1532 · Apr 4, 2014

I agree except you didn't account for the taper of the hill....so not that many yards.

sixtyninegmc · Apr 4, 2014

I thought of that as soon as I posted, whoops. All of it is kind of conjecture without walking the site, but the thought of doing it 2 yards at a time with a dump trailer is scary!

David G · Apr 4, 2014

I think this is a plant to get a rise.

oldtanker · Apr 4, 2014

(quoted from post at 16:33:02 04/04/14) I think this is a plant to get a rise.

Keeping that in mind lets go at it another way. Lets say it's 5000 yards of dirt to move. At 1/2 to 3/4 of a yard at a time that is going to be a lot of hours on the tractor plus a heck of a lot of wear and tear on the loader pins and bushings. A tractor is only going to last X number of hours. You try doing that with a smaller tractor and loader you are going to really shorten the overall life of the tractor. So you are looking at getting the tractor, moving the dirt, selling said tractor because you about wore it out and buying a replacement anyway. You are going to lose money on the worn out tractor too. You buy a dedicated loader tractor as others have recommended and hire/rent a dump truck. You get done in 1/4 the time and the loader tractor still has value. You sell it and buy yourself a farm tractor. being hard headed about it isn't going to make a 50HP tractor work any better. I have a very heavy built TLB with a 1 1/4 yard bucket on the front end. No way I'd try doing that job with it.

On another note, a lot of skip loaders and TLBs have a gear tranny but also has a shuttle shift too. It allows you to go from forward to reverse (sometimes mistakenly called a reverser) without clutching and most often are a lever that is in easy reach of the steering wheel. It's designed to save the wear and tear on a clutch during loader operations. They are pretty much bullet proof and have been for many years.

Rick

Dave in Tx · Apr 4, 2014

You will be forever moving 9000 yards of dirt and whatever you buy will be worn out when you get done. The fuel bill alone will be horrendous. Is it not possible to use a large self loading sraper or a industrial truck. County road or highway?. You are talking 30,000 or 40,000 buckets of dirt for a small loader. It is a large task for a big loader and several trucks.

Robert Major · Apr 4, 2014

Hi if you are going to buy a tractor to do this unless it"s half worn out you will never wear it out. you will probably get bored and quit before you move 9000 yards l.o.l.

The last thing you want is a tractor with a foot pedal dry clutch also. every time you change direction you got to hit the clutch/ brakes with your feet and move a shifter. the repetitive fatigue on your leg/ knees will be pretty bad to . try finding something with shuttle shift, or a push button electric over ride for the clutch, like my delta shift Valtra has. I do round baling and loader work here with that. It works way better than our other tractor with foot clutch only. The other tractor hardly gets used since we had the valtra. So does that tell ya how nice the electric clutch or shuttle shift would be.
If you go with the regular clutch you will probably get very good at changing or adjusting it, on this project also.
Regards Robert

showcrop · Apr 4, 2014

A hill 300x 75 x10 is 8,333 yards, which is about 700 ten wheeler truck loads. With a regular loader back hoe it will take about 10 buckets to fill it or about fifteen minutes. I would estimate a whole round at about forty minutes. So you would do around twelve loads a day. At four days a week you could get it done in fifteen weeks. And that is with a full sized loader tractor. You would be much better off with one with a power reverser with the clutch pack that runs in oil, as it is made for that sort of use. A two yard trailer and small tractor will take a little less time to load but more to dump, so you would still be at around twelve loads per day and 86 four day weeks.

Anonymous-0 · Apr 5, 2014

If it's packed soil a track excavator could easily dig and load it into a dump truck. If you have to go 4 miles, you WILL need a truck. I know you want to move it yourself but it might be the most cost effective to just hire it out to a contractor with the right equipment. Like I said earlier, if it's packed soil a backhoe would be the best to loosen it up. A tractor, backhoe, loader (TLB) might be a good option but you still need a truck to haul it. If you're on a budget and buy a cheaper used machine, could be the most expensive mistake you ever make.

dbernie · Apr 5, 2014

I can't give ya great advice, but if determined to buy, and do this job, as others have said, buy big, knock the job out, then sell and buy what you need for next place and your specific tasks. If you buy small, it will take a long time, be wore out, and cause you anguish in repairs as you try to farm your new place. If you buy big, for the job, and keep it, your operating expenses for your new farm will be too high. Think of fuel prices, hydraulic fluid prices, oil, tires, bearings, etc--the bigger they are, the more expensive to fix.
If set on buying, again, buy for that job, then sell and buy suitable tractor for next job. If you can, shoot, keep both.
Tractors like company, and you can split the chores between the two. As far as brand name opinion, buying the right size for the job is it, all the brand names you mentioned will all do you good. Find out what dealer has a good reputation in your area, treats folks right, and go with that brand.
They will all get the work done, just a matter of how you want to go about it, and how much money you have.
Again, I would urge you to find out which dealers/independent shops are friendly, fair, and good in your area...then buy something common with plenty of parts availability, unless you don't mind down time. Find out what shops good, if you don't know anybody, look at what the bulk of brand names are around you, then that shop/dealer is probably good.
I'm sure this don't help, its probably what your wondering about, so your not alone.
I am but an ignorant fool, in this world to learn.
Take care

David G · Apr 5, 2014

Jim,

I do not believe anyone is being disrespectful here, but are trying to help.

Moving earth is hard work, especially if it is virgin and compacted. It will tear up an undersized implement in a hurry and you will be way behind due to repair bills. It really sounds like you will need an excavator, a dump truck and a caterpillar.

Are you sure you want to bite on this?

5000-8000 yards of compacted earth will expand into 7000-9000 yards to haul. That is 1000-2000 trips down the road.

I would get a bid from a professional contractor, then expect you can do it yourself for 50%-70% of that price, BEST case, plus counting your time at no value.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 5, 2014

Dbernie,
You make a lot of sense. Thanks for your advise.
As for all the advise I am being given I will measure the hill I want to take out exactly as to what I put down before is off the top of my head.
I quite possibly just am not seeing this job in
perspective. I dread buying any equipment that I don't plan on keeping.That is why I tend to stay away from the idea of buying big .As you said costs more to repair and operate.For whatever reason it is hard for me to sell things . I am not a good salesperson. I am to honest and point out everything that I know to be wrong. I do not want to defraud anyone and do not feel well when things break after I have sold it to someone.I know it goes back to my upbringing Lots of shame based crap I was fed. Well thanks again for your input. Jim W.

jennifer408 · Apr 5, 2014

On another note, a lot of skip loaders and TLBs have a gear tranny but also has a shuttle shift too. It allows you to go from forward to reverse (sometimes mistakenly called a reverser) without clutching and most often are a lever that is in easy reach of the steering wheel. It's designed to save the wear and tear on a clutch during loader operations. They are pretty much bullet proof and have been for many years.

Rick[/quote]

i rented a backhoe loader with that feature on it one time and they are sweet to use. the only problem was when i got back in my truck i almost yanked my blinker arm off a few times cause i had grown use to slamming that lever on the backhoe around so much.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 5, 2014

David,
I don't think anyone is being disrespectful.
Your advise makes sense. I responded to Dbernie
and will take measurements of exact amount I need to move to get this task done. I realize that I need to think clearly about this undertaking .In the past I have done jobs the hard way. My father's way of doing things was always by hand . That meant a shovel ,pick , and a wheelbarrow . No tractor was ever involved. I was amazed after I bought my White 2-30 at how much dirt I could move in a relatively short time.Yes I need to see what a contractor would charge and maybe just think if this is really a job that I must do.Thanks for your input at the very least it has caused me to think a little more in depth about this pursuit. Sincerely, Jim W.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 5, 2014

Jennifer,
I read your advise and will look into cost of renting a skip loader .I am not familiar/ignorant
as to what is a TLB . Your poor truck turn signal
I hope it will survive . That is funny yet lots of truth sometimes our brain is in automatic mode.
I know of several time on the way home from work
I was going to go to some store or even a friends place and didn't remember till I was already in my driveway.Rudy Tansl the brain scientist from MIT calls this being mindful. We need to remind our brain when we lay our keys down some place so we will remember where we left them . With only 6 days till I hit 63 I am having more of these senior moments and I must work harder to train my
mind to obey my brain . Probably I just never trained my mind in the first place. Oh well what really counts is what is in your heart I truly believe God helps us with everything if we let him.Listening for me is not only with my ears but
trying to also listen with my heart.

jimwaldhaus · Apr 5, 2014

Sixtyninetrucker,
I do not have much experience with moving dirt.
As everybody is telling me I need to think more
about the scale of this job. Perhaps I need to scale it back or even forget about it. Since I have
already bought the 1 ton Ford and the dump trailer
I sort of have committed myself to the task as to what I thought would be a way to do this.That is my ignorance /inexperience.I can see now I should have asked advice before ever making these purchases. I am going to get exact measurements on the dump trailer to know how much it can haul and do the math on hill size trying to limit the scope of the job to bare minimum .That should help with what type equipment and or if hiring it out will be better way to go. Thanks for your suggestions , all of the input has definitely helped me to get a better perspective of this undertaking and question my own hard headed ideas.
Thank you for your good advise . Jim W.

jennifer408 · Apr 5, 2014

funny you should bring that up. i read or heard somewhere someone did a study and found out that when you walk through a door or portal of any sort, your brain hits a reset button so you will be prepared for what ever new encounter you may experience. this was fresh on my mind one day when i got to see it in action. my DH was walking up to the shop and he asked me if i knew where the flat blade shovel was, he then walked through the door and said "what in the heck was i coming here for ?" i told him a flat blade shovel and he seemed to be amazed that i had somehow read his mind.

showcrop · Apr 5, 2014

(quoted from post at 09:51:36 04/05/14) Sixtyninetrucker,
I do not have much experience with moving dirt.
As everybody is telling me I need to think more
about the scale of this job. Perhaps I need to scale it back or even forget about it. Since I have
already bought the 1 ton Ford and the dump trailer
I sort of have committed myself to the task as to what I thought would be a way to do this.That is my ignorance /inexperience.I can see now I should have asked advice before ever making these purchases. I am going to get exact measurements on the dump trailer to know how much it can haul and do the math on hill size trying to limit the scope of the job to bare minimum .That should help with what type equipment and or if hiring it out will be better way to go. Thanks for your suggestions , all of the input has definitely helped me to get a better perspective of this undertaking and question my own hard headed ideas.
Thank you for your good advise . Jim W.

Jim Don't even THINK of filling that trailer!!!! you will be a lethal weapon going down the road. As an example crusher run weighs roughly 3,000 lbs/ yard, your dirt will probably be a little lighter. You should find the load capacity of your tires, multiply by four subtract what it weighs empty, that will give you your load capacity. Count how many buckets it takes to fill it half full then take it to a quarry or grain elevator and get it weighed then adjust from there. You will not be able to legally or safely carry more than half a load. Come to think of it you said that the sides are five feet so I will recommend no more than one foot deep for starters.

Pops1532 · Apr 5, 2014

Jim, TLB stands for tractor-loader-backhoe.
I have trouble selling stuff too but for a different reason. I like having stuff.
The excavator suggestion is a good one, but you'd still need something else to do grading. Perhaps you could rent an excavator and use whatever tractor you buy to grade with.

I'm going to throw something else at you to think about....
I suspect you'll need to dig deeper than what you want for finish grade and use some of what was on the original surface to bring it back up to grade.

I have a 14' dump trailer. While I don't think it would be a good choice for a project like yours it's a very handy thing to own. I don't think you'll regret buying yours even if you don't use it for this project. You'll get plenty of use out of it. My dump trailer is rated at 14,000 GVWR with a payload capacity of just under 10,000 pounds.

As others have said, shuttle is the way to go for loader work.

Purchase of another tractor .

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