- Thread starter 55 50 Ron
- Start date
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
My house has a box on the roof that's some sort of solar heater. Pulls air out of the house, warms it, and pushes it back in. It works when it's up above freezing or a little colder if the sun's out good and the wind's not blowing. Definitely not for primary heating use, supplemental only. Might work better if the fiberglass wasn't hazed over and the one tree didn't block it til noon.
I'm 26 1/4 miles from the Kansas line.
I'm 26 1/4 miles from the Kansas line.
BushogPapa
Well-known Member
You can make some dandy Solar Collectors for your windows and they work all winter if there is any Sun and you keep the snow off..
"Mother Earth News" years ago had an article on them.
Ron..
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
These work well IF the sun shines.
It was difficult to find a building in Europe and the middle east without these.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=solar+vacuum+tube+heater&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wnsXU5LELcn0qAGo7ICwCA&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=657
It was difficult to find a building in Europe and the middle east without these.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=solar+vacuum+tube+heater&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wnsXU5LELcn0qAGo7ICwCA&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=657
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Solar heat only works when the sun shines. In the middle of the winter I have more cloudy days than sunny. Less than 8 hours of usuable light.
I do use passive solar in house. Most of my windows are on the south side. Feels good when the sun is out, not so good the rest of the time. I think it may be counter productive, the little heat gain in the day may be off set by the heat loss throught the windows at night. The boss like it for her flowers. Not to mention it helps with winter cabin fever.
My pole barn is about 11 degrees warmer in the winter when the sun is out. Barn is a blue/gray, no insulation, Sun warms barn through metal.
I think painting the roof and south side of your barn may be the cheapest and best way to collect solar energy.
I do use passive solar in house. Most of my windows are on the south side. Feels good when the sun is out, not so good the rest of the time. I think it may be counter productive, the little heat gain in the day may be off set by the heat loss throught the windows at night. The boss like it for her flowers. Not to mention it helps with winter cabin fever.
My pole barn is about 11 degrees warmer in the winter when the sun is out. Barn is a blue/gray, no insulation, Sun warms barn through metal.
I think painting the roof and south side of your barn may be the cheapest and best way to collect solar energy.
I am in North Tx and use solar as supplamently heat in my family room. As someone said,North to South effects opertunity but as you move North,the benifits are increasingly cost saving. Thermal mass is a subject that should be studied when considering solar heating. I reap as much benifit from heat stored in sand ballast during the day and used at night as direct gain during daylight. A neighbor installed tubing in his shop floor for conventional floor heat circulating water from a gas water heater. He changed his mind after the building was complete and is using solar heated water. The thermal mass of the concrete supplies heat for two days eventhough there is no sun. Only problem is when the tempature swings uppward from 30F to 75F within a few hours(very common in Tx). The floor gos right on heating so windows and doors have to be opened.
spacecadet9
Member
I found an online PDF that might give you some ideas. I knew Marv Hall, one of the authors, and he had really good ideas on alternative energy. http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/Ag. Ext. 2007-Chelsie/PDF/e1761-1984.pdf The title says it's about swine confinements, but Marv said the attic collector worked real well for shops. They had duct running from the attic collector down to a mass storage under the floor. He said a 0* outside the inside would be 50*+ with a warm floor.
My parents store had a showroom with 5 5'x10' single glaze plate glass windows, 3 of them south facing. I built a collector to fit in one of the south windows. I used bead board foam covered with old printing plates from our local newspaper (they were thin aluminum and was before recycling was popular). I put a hole at the bottom and top which created a thermal siphon. It would get too hot and the top and was melting the foam. Marv came by, took some measurements, and suggested a fan to circulate the the air faster. I had to experiment with the cfm to get the balance. Too little it got too hot, too much and the air didn't heat.
You might get some ideas at 'instructables.com' and 'mothereartnews.com'.
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
All we have is solar in the shop right now. Keeps it about 20 C (35 F) warmer than whatever it is outside. This spring I'm almost tripling the size of the collector so it should be able to alway keep above freezing all winter.
Ron if you are building new, you can build a shop that will never get cold or hot. I have one. The system is called Passive Annual Heat Storage (PAHS). Not my invention, I read the book 30 years ago and decided it was what I needed.
The basic idea is to dump excess summer heat into the building mass for later retrieval as winter heating. Not a few days' heat storage, but six months'.
If you are looking for retrofit heating, PAHS is not it. You will do well with active solar panels, as described here. Lots of variations on that theme. BuildItSolar.com is a large website dedicated to the subject.
PAHS can provide an annual indoor temperature that hovers near 70º F. A little colder in winter, a little warmer in summer. This is independent of latitude. Works in Alaska, works in Texas, with some minor adjustments to the design.
We have had our coldest and snowiest winter ever here, snow on the ground for the past month. Interior temperature has never dropped to 63º F, with no supplemental heating. We are often not home, no problem as this is a totally passive system.
This is not particularly good performance because when I built I didn't understand how PAHS works. Better designs will maintain 68º in January.
Houses are the primary interest of course, but the same principle applies to any use. Cost of construction is favorable compared to stick built, usually cheaper.
The basic idea is to dump excess summer heat into the building mass for later retrieval as winter heating. Not a few days' heat storage, but six months'.
If you are looking for retrofit heating, PAHS is not it. You will do well with active solar panels, as described here. Lots of variations on that theme. BuildItSolar.com is a large website dedicated to the subject.
PAHS can provide an annual indoor temperature that hovers near 70º F. A little colder in winter, a little warmer in summer. This is independent of latitude. Works in Alaska, works in Texas, with some minor adjustments to the design.
We have had our coldest and snowiest winter ever here, snow on the ground for the past month. Interior temperature has never dropped to 63º F, with no supplemental heating. We are often not home, no problem as this is a totally passive system.
This is not particularly good performance because when I built I didn't understand how PAHS works. Better designs will maintain 68º in January.
Houses are the primary interest of course, but the same principle applies to any use. Cost of construction is favorable compared to stick built, usually cheaper.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I made a solar room with all windows on south side of room. I used low e windows, because I already had them. I would recommend not using low E, it blocks some of the sun's energy.
I also have a rental home built in 1920's with a pourch across the south end. It just has single glass windows. Tenants just love it. If there is snow on the ground, it can be 80 on the pourch if the sun is out. Sun does down, so does the temp. Tenants open door between pourch and house. The 80 year old lady just loves it.
I also have a rental home built in 1920's with a pourch across the south end. It just has single glass windows. Tenants just love it. If there is snow on the ground, it can be 80 on the pourch if the sun is out. Sun does down, so does the temp. Tenants open door between pourch and house. The 80 year old lady just loves it.
showcrop
Well-known Member
I have a small collector in my shop. I picked up a large thermopane window and installed it in the south wall. I put a small cement block wall in front of it to catch the heat and keep it from just rising to the 17 foot ceiling. I installed shutters of two inch foam board on the inside, which I close at night and on cloudy days. The building is 40x50x17 and the temp will increase by three degrees inside, on a sunny day, when the out door temp is fifteen degrees lower than the inside temperature.
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
I don't even know what's inside it, it was here when the previous owner moved in and he couldn't tell me anything about it either.
After doing a bit of googling on PAHS, it looks to me like it may work in a mild climate but not where it really gets cold. We have a 7-9 month heating season. While earth sheltered buildings help a lot it also requires a location suitable for such construction and your PAHS/heat pump type system also requires enough soil in the area to work. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great thing in the right place, but not everywhere is even close to right. That seems to be the problem with a lot of alternative systems- they work great in some applications and suck swamp water in others.
Bret, what were you reading? Clearly not about PAHS. There is no heat pump, or any other mechanical device. The original PAHS was built in Missoula, Montana, not a mild climate. Any search would have turned up the basis for the book.
As I mentioned, they are successful in almost any climate, whether primarily heating (most of the US) or primarily cooling. Only in an extremely mild climate, like Hawaii, would one not be worth building.
Soil is not necessary, I have almost none on my Virginia mountaintop. Been enjoying my PAHS for 20 years now. The reason there is a mountain here is the rock under it.
Are you are confusing PAHS with ground source heat pumps (often called geo-thermal)? They are an entirely different approach, work well, but expensive.
If you want to learn, look for "Passive Annual Heat Storage". Not "earth-sheltered" or "heat pumps".
As I mentioned, they are successful in almost any climate, whether primarily heating (most of the US) or primarily cooling. Only in an extremely mild climate, like Hawaii, would one not be worth building.
Soil is not necessary, I have almost none on my Virginia mountaintop. Been enjoying my PAHS for 20 years now. The reason there is a mountain here is the rock under it.
Are you are confusing PAHS with ground source heat pumps (often called geo-thermal)? They are an entirely different approach, work well, but expensive.
If you want to learn, look for "Passive Annual Heat Storage". Not "earth-sheltered" or "heat pumps".
I googled "PAHS". I don't see a lot of difference between thermal mass heating and a heat pump based on ground heat. One is based on natural, ambient "heat" and the other based on "storage" of summer heat, so to speak. I have a really, really hard time believing you are actually storing heat for 6 months. Maybe your wording gave the wrong impression?
Bret, great that you were interested enough to search. What part of "Passive" in Passive Annual Heat Storage did you not understand?
This is entirely different from active systems that you're trying to lump it in with. It also has nothing to do with ambient ground temperature. The house mass stabilizes at room temperature, as I posted. For this to work on an annual basis, the mass is extremely large.
I was clear, you did not misunderstand. This is annual heat storage, not a few days, annual.
The mass reaches its lowest temperature at the end of winter, exactly when everybody else here starts thinking about air conditioning. The mass cools our house all summer, getting gradually warmer until reaching its peak temperature just when winter is beginning. This cycle has been repeated here for 20 years, and will continue until my steel and concrete house no longer exists. Nothing is required from me, or any future occupant.
Not surprising that this is a new idea to you, the guy who wrote the book didn't do much to promote the concept. I was an early builder. Today they have been built all over, though still few in number.
Near the Pyrenees in France one is under construction, built of rammed earth walls. An attractive part is that no particular architecture is required, can look like almost anything. You just have to figure out where to put the very large mass. Usually, the house sits on and in it.
In Georgia a non-standard house must have proof submitted before a building permit can be issued. They require proof that the house will maintain 68º in January, with no apparent heating system. What is the heat loss for the house, and where does the heat to replace it come from? Answers are required. I think every state should do something similar. Might get people to insist on better houses.
Those Ga building department officials had never heard of the concept either. Now accepted there.
Until I had several years experience here, my head building inspector remained convinced that what I built would never work. He kept visiting and finally admitted he was wrong and asked if he could give my number to select interested homeowners. This isn't rocket science, but it is unlike previous solar plans.
I get a steady trickle of interested folks through here, they need to "see" it. There's really little to see, just a partially buried house. What is invisible, and makes PAHS work, is the insulating umbrella that isolates the house mass from ambient air temperature. Without it, annual heat storage would not occur.
The book author didn't do a great job of explaining how and why PAHS works. After building, and finding my performance was not quite as good as in Missoula, I was curious why. An engineering manual written at Stanford U. for non-engineers led me through the calculations to determine precisely how heat movement works in these houses.
I now consult, primarily with thermal modeling of proposed houses so that any design errors can be corrected before construction.
The second (and last) PAHS house I built, is just down the road here. The owner is putting up with an 80 mile each way commute. That's crazy, but he won't give up the house. I told him he doesn't need me, any competent contractor can build one. His previous house was a lovely post&beam SIPs place that he would never settle for again.
This is entirely different from active systems that you're trying to lump it in with. It also has nothing to do with ambient ground temperature. The house mass stabilizes at room temperature, as I posted. For this to work on an annual basis, the mass is extremely large.
I was clear, you did not misunderstand. This is annual heat storage, not a few days, annual.
The mass reaches its lowest temperature at the end of winter, exactly when everybody else here starts thinking about air conditioning. The mass cools our house all summer, getting gradually warmer until reaching its peak temperature just when winter is beginning. This cycle has been repeated here for 20 years, and will continue until my steel and concrete house no longer exists. Nothing is required from me, or any future occupant.
Not surprising that this is a new idea to you, the guy who wrote the book didn't do much to promote the concept. I was an early builder. Today they have been built all over, though still few in number.
Near the Pyrenees in France one is under construction, built of rammed earth walls. An attractive part is that no particular architecture is required, can look like almost anything. You just have to figure out where to put the very large mass. Usually, the house sits on and in it.
In Georgia a non-standard house must have proof submitted before a building permit can be issued. They require proof that the house will maintain 68º in January, with no apparent heating system. What is the heat loss for the house, and where does the heat to replace it come from? Answers are required. I think every state should do something similar. Might get people to insist on better houses.
Those Ga building department officials had never heard of the concept either. Now accepted there.
Until I had several years experience here, my head building inspector remained convinced that what I built would never work. He kept visiting and finally admitted he was wrong and asked if he could give my number to select interested homeowners. This isn't rocket science, but it is unlike previous solar plans.
I get a steady trickle of interested folks through here, they need to "see" it. There's really little to see, just a partially buried house. What is invisible, and makes PAHS work, is the insulating umbrella that isolates the house mass from ambient air temperature. Without it, annual heat storage would not occur.
The book author didn't do a great job of explaining how and why PAHS works. After building, and finding my performance was not quite as good as in Missoula, I was curious why. An engineering manual written at Stanford U. for non-engineers led me through the calculations to determine precisely how heat movement works in these houses.
I now consult, primarily with thermal modeling of proposed houses so that any design errors can be corrected before construction.
The second (and last) PAHS house I built, is just down the road here. The owner is putting up with an 80 mile each way commute. That's crazy, but he won't give up the house. I told him he doesn't need me, any competent contractor can build one. His previous house was a lovely post&beam SIPs place that he would never settle for again.
Tom, I was looking at examples like this- http://www.norishouse.com/PAHS/UmbrellaHouse.html
Now, looking at that what I see is an insulated (R20) ground mass, only insulated on top and a little of the sides. What I also see is that the thermal energy is theoretically somehow transferred to the ground mass via warm air convection through the labeled "heat tubes". (This is why I compared to a heat pump type system, I understand you're using natural convection- got it, no argument on the passive part.) The impression I get is that they are, in t e example I linked to anyway, somehow taking that warm air 50 feet down and attempting to warm the soil. And all this is being done through a relatively tiny window of the house.
Where I have a real problem is that if this was to work, then you are putting X BTU's (for lack of a better term) into the ground via natural convection during the day. As soon as the sun goes down or it clouds up significantly then the convection current is going to change and the BTU's start going the other way as cool air starts flowing in and cooling the mass. So I guess my question is, how can it "gain" heat once your losing more BTUs than you're gaining? I can let a rock get nice and hit in the sun and cover it with insulation, by midnight or so it's still going to have lost that heat. Unless the whole of the ground mass was insulated it's going to radiate out.
Please tell me more. I won't say it can't work, but I have a real hard time envisioning it.
Now, looking at that what I see is an insulated (R20) ground mass, only insulated on top and a little of the sides. What I also see is that the thermal energy is theoretically somehow transferred to the ground mass via warm air convection through the labeled "heat tubes". (This is why I compared to a heat pump type system, I understand you're using natural convection- got it, no argument on the passive part.) The impression I get is that they are, in t e example I linked to anyway, somehow taking that warm air 50 feet down and attempting to warm the soil. And all this is being done through a relatively tiny window of the house.
Where I have a real problem is that if this was to work, then you are putting X BTU's (for lack of a better term) into the ground via natural convection during the day. As soon as the sun goes down or it clouds up significantly then the convection current is going to change and the BTU's start going the other way as cool air starts flowing in and cooling the mass. So I guess my question is, how can it "gain" heat once your losing more BTUs than you're gaining? I can let a rock get nice and hit in the sun and cover it with insulation, by midnight or so it's still going to have lost that heat. Unless the whole of the ground mass was insulated it's going to radiate out.
Please tell me more. I won't say it can't work, but I have a real hard time envisioning it.
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
It's pretty yellow, so I don't know that it wouldn't be better to just replace it.
What's it supposed to be coated with?
What's it supposed to be coated with?
Excellent questions Bret.
I know Nori (Washington state), far as I know she never convinced her husband into a PAHS build. She was shocked when I mentioned that I quantify heat for PAHS, she'd never heard of that. I know her through alternative-architecture circles. That excerpt is out of the book I mentioned.
Wish I could tell you exactly how the Missoula house worked. Unfortunately, John Hait never provided enough data. He said it was due to summer heat going into the mass. Missoula only has 256 cooling degree-days.
You're correct, the only way to determine what's happening is to quantify the heat movement. My engineering manual's old enough to use BTUs.
If I was only charging my mass during sunny days, it wouldn't work very well. I have 1131 cooling degree-days, which puts heat into my mass 24/7 all summer, while everyone else is buying electricity for air conditioning.
This is precisely why I mentioned that the design needs to be tweaked for the local climate, preferably even the micro-climate of the house site. I go month by month to determine which direction heat is flowing, and quantifying it.
PAHS is a heating/cooling system that, like any other heating/cooling system, should be sized to the application. Hait did not do that. I do. I built my place on the assumption that no matter what I got it would likely be better than anybody else's around here. That proved true, but the houses I help design work better than mine.
Out of fear of mold incubation, I didn't use earth tubes. The house still works. I'm simply charging my mass, and depleting it, through my buried walls, floor, and roof. Earth tubes are actually more effective in low-mass houses. I'm no longer afraid of them in a hot humid climate, but that required some experience. The Atlanta house got them.
Hait made some errors, assumptions (I think) that were not based on empirical evidence. One I recently corrected for a guy in New York wanting to sell geodesic dome kits for PAHS use (www.domeanddirt.com) was about Hait's insistence on small glazing.
Glazing is always the trouble area, any house, any heating system. One size does not fit all in usual terms of % of floor area. Hait said 6% max. As you said, "tiny". He doesn't live with my wife, we have 26% of floor area in glazing.
I have 250 sq ft of south-facing glass, enough to grossly over-heat a low-mass house this size. No problem for a high mass house, though we do effect .5 ACH with an HRV. Our glazing you'd have no problem believing we get a lot of heating. However, summers we have no direct sun entering the house, and the warming of the mass continues at an increased rate because the indoor temps are higher.
Again, this is not a short-term system. It relies on annual effects. Why Hait called it Annual Heat Storage. Your assumptions are not wrong, just not applicable to PAHS as a whole.
Many have asked why the stored heat did not always flow in one direction, to the cooler adjoining earth. I didn't know until an aerospace engineer explained sinusoidal damping to me. PAHS houses take 2-3 years to stabilize, far longer than the 6 months Hait observed heat took to move through his rule-of-thumb 20 feet of dry earth storage. Hait apparently didn't know why that stabilization took so long, simply what he observed.
Too much history. We've probably already put everyone else to sleep so if you'd like more we might take this off-forum.
I know Nori (Washington state), far as I know she never convinced her husband into a PAHS build. She was shocked when I mentioned that I quantify heat for PAHS, she'd never heard of that. I know her through alternative-architecture circles. That excerpt is out of the book I mentioned.
Wish I could tell you exactly how the Missoula house worked. Unfortunately, John Hait never provided enough data. He said it was due to summer heat going into the mass. Missoula only has 256 cooling degree-days.
You're correct, the only way to determine what's happening is to quantify the heat movement. My engineering manual's old enough to use BTUs.
If I was only charging my mass during sunny days, it wouldn't work very well. I have 1131 cooling degree-days, which puts heat into my mass 24/7 all summer, while everyone else is buying electricity for air conditioning.
This is precisely why I mentioned that the design needs to be tweaked for the local climate, preferably even the micro-climate of the house site. I go month by month to determine which direction heat is flowing, and quantifying it.
PAHS is a heating/cooling system that, like any other heating/cooling system, should be sized to the application. Hait did not do that. I do. I built my place on the assumption that no matter what I got it would likely be better than anybody else's around here. That proved true, but the houses I help design work better than mine.
Out of fear of mold incubation, I didn't use earth tubes. The house still works. I'm simply charging my mass, and depleting it, through my buried walls, floor, and roof. Earth tubes are actually more effective in low-mass houses. I'm no longer afraid of them in a hot humid climate, but that required some experience. The Atlanta house got them.
Hait made some errors, assumptions (I think) that were not based on empirical evidence. One I recently corrected for a guy in New York wanting to sell geodesic dome kits for PAHS use (www.domeanddirt.com) was about Hait's insistence on small glazing.
Glazing is always the trouble area, any house, any heating system. One size does not fit all in usual terms of % of floor area. Hait said 6% max. As you said, "tiny". He doesn't live with my wife, we have 26% of floor area in glazing.
I have 250 sq ft of south-facing glass, enough to grossly over-heat a low-mass house this size. No problem for a high mass house, though we do effect .5 ACH with an HRV. Our glazing you'd have no problem believing we get a lot of heating. However, summers we have no direct sun entering the house, and the warming of the mass continues at an increased rate because the indoor temps are higher.
Again, this is not a short-term system. It relies on annual effects. Why Hait called it Annual Heat Storage. Your assumptions are not wrong, just not applicable to PAHS as a whole.
Many have asked why the stored heat did not always flow in one direction, to the cooler adjoining earth. I didn't know until an aerospace engineer explained sinusoidal damping to me. PAHS houses take 2-3 years to stabilize, far longer than the 6 months Hait observed heat took to move through his rule-of-thumb 20 feet of dry earth storage. Hait apparently didn't know why that stabilization took so long, simply what he observed.
Too much history. We've probably already put everyone else to sleep so if you'd like more we might take this off-forum.
Not asleep Tom, thanks for posting about your house, I have wondered about your house in the past when you have mentioned it.
Question: how do you know how much mass is needed? Cant you end up building with too much mass? And with not enough mass, they house temps swing too much?
Thanks.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I use between 10-12,000,000 BTU's a month in the winter, Dec,Jan,Feb. So how many tons of dirt are you using to make the walls? How large is your other thermal mass?
I have about 25,000 4 pound brick on my house. If the temperature in the summer is 85 in the day and 65 at night, my house will stay at 75 with out air conditioning. I do use a power attic fan because attics get extremely hot.
I think some american indians in Arizona had dirt huts with very thick walls. Same idea, thermal mass to stay warm at night and cool in the day.
I have about 25,000 4 pound brick on my house. If the temperature in the summer is 85 in the day and 65 at night, my house will stay at 75 with out air conditioning. I do use a power attic fan because attics get extremely hot.
I think some american indians in Arizona had dirt huts with very thick walls. Same idea, thermal mass to stay warm at night and cool in the day.
Thanks guys, never know when something's a little too obscure for general interest.
I determine mass need by calculating how much heat is needed in winter. Then it's a simple process to size the mass to store the number of BTUs at the low temperature differential (ΔT) that PAHS uses. If the convenient mass is insufficient, the choices are to increase it, or reduce the heat loss. Normally, that's dealing with glazing loss.
Too much mass is possible, but only if it's not dealt with in this annual manner. A house with extreme mass that is allowed to reach uncomfortable temperature will take a very long time to get comfortable. PAHS doesn't allow that by maintaining near ideal room temperature all year.
Insufficient mass will show up with larger temp swings. That's my case, with an annual temperature swing of 13º, whereas a better PAHS house will have no more than 7º. Not that 13º is difficult to live with. I could reduce that 3º by simply adding window treatment, but we don't bother.
PAHS really is this simple. As I mentioned, I had little idea when I built and it worked better than any other house around here. A good friend has a similar size house and burns 4 1/2 cords of hardwood every year, maybe 6 cords this year. Cuts it from my woodlot, I burn very little.
If you wanted to raise your indoor temp 4º, you wouldn't need much added heat either. When I'm feeling lazy I put on a sweater instead of lighting the stove. I know, I'm spoiled after 20 years of this. As I get older, Medicare age this summer, my PAHS decision looks better and better.
Did I mention that there is never re-roofing needed?
New builds coming soon in Oklahoma, Vermont, and Maine. Guy in Indiana is waffling, has free natural gas from a storage facility on his property. A primary motivation for him is a house that won't blow away. My small footprint roof weighs 200 tons, with the steel welded together. I used commercial construction materials, ubiquitous in commercial construction due to low cost and low skill level required.
I determine mass need by calculating how much heat is needed in winter. Then it's a simple process to size the mass to store the number of BTUs at the low temperature differential (ΔT) that PAHS uses. If the convenient mass is insufficient, the choices are to increase it, or reduce the heat loss. Normally, that's dealing with glazing loss.
Too much mass is possible, but only if it's not dealt with in this annual manner. A house with extreme mass that is allowed to reach uncomfortable temperature will take a very long time to get comfortable. PAHS doesn't allow that by maintaining near ideal room temperature all year.
Insufficient mass will show up with larger temp swings. That's my case, with an annual temperature swing of 13º, whereas a better PAHS house will have no more than 7º. Not that 13º is difficult to live with. I could reduce that 3º by simply adding window treatment, but we don't bother.
PAHS really is this simple. As I mentioned, I had little idea when I built and it worked better than any other house around here. A good friend has a similar size house and burns 4 1/2 cords of hardwood every year, maybe 6 cords this year. Cuts it from my woodlot, I burn very little.
If you wanted to raise your indoor temp 4º, you wouldn't need much added heat either. When I'm feeling lazy I put on a sweater instead of lighting the stove. I know, I'm spoiled after 20 years of this. As I get older, Medicare age this summer, my PAHS decision looks better and better.
Did I mention that there is never re-roofing needed?
New builds coming soon in Oklahoma, Vermont, and Maine. Guy in Indiana is waffling, has free natural gas from a storage facility on his property. A primary motivation for him is a house that won't blow away. My small footprint roof weighs 200 tons, with the steel welded together. I used commercial construction materials, ubiquitous in commercial construction due to low cost and low skill level required.
Yeah, well I was out in balmy Virginia 2º with a stiff breeze one morning thawing my wellhead. 20 years, never froze before in the concrete casing. Which is now insulated inside and a light bulb for some added heat.
PAHS is slow, real slow. Both heating and cooling. Requires a slightly different mindset from other heating systems. But then you get used to it, forget that anything's actually happening. The house just is always comfortable. Surprising when you visit elsewhere and their place isn't.
My standard advice is to sell that dog to someone else and go build a better house. Your house should take care of you, not the other way around.
PAHS is slow, real slow. Both heating and cooling. Requires a slightly different mindset from other heating systems. But then you get used to it, forget that anything's actually happening. The house just is always comfortable. Surprising when you visit elsewhere and their place isn't.
My standard advice is to sell that dog to someone else and go build a better house. Your house should take care of you, not the other way around.
George, you know that mass works. In Arizona adobe was common for low elevation. It relied on diurnal temperature variations to stay comfortable. Too many cold days and it was real uncomfortable. Then the mass was working against you. Summers, like yours, with high diurnal swings worked well.
Hait's basic plan called for a dirt mass 20 feet beyond the house perimeter with the walls mostly buried. Two feet of overhead, under-umbrella dirt. The 20 feet is what Hait measured heat to move in his Missoula fill in 6 months. The mass under the house is part of the house also, down that same 20 feet.
Fills, and substrate vary. I account for that, but it's rarely critical.
The small PAHS ΔT between mass and indoor temp means a large area of surface contact is necessary for adequate heat movement. The first time I modeled a house with a standard basement (most of these resemble a walkout basement with no house on top) I was surprised at how well a basement functioned. Shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
In France, the current movement is to use curvilinear thinshell concrete combined with PAHS. There's a venerated tradition of thinshell concrete Maison Bulles, bubble houses. Unbelievably uncomfortable winter and summer. PAHS solves that.
Two years ago a young Frenchman I helped with PAHS for his thinshell concrete in the shape of a nautilus talked me into a 9 day road trip to visit these famous houses. He knew everybody. Take a peek at one of the most famous.
Maison Bulle Cardins
Hait's basic plan called for a dirt mass 20 feet beyond the house perimeter with the walls mostly buried. Two feet of overhead, under-umbrella dirt. The 20 feet is what Hait measured heat to move in his Missoula fill in 6 months. The mass under the house is part of the house also, down that same 20 feet.
Fills, and substrate vary. I account for that, but it's rarely critical.
The small PAHS ΔT between mass and indoor temp means a large area of surface contact is necessary for adequate heat movement. The first time I modeled a house with a standard basement (most of these resemble a walkout basement with no house on top) I was surprised at how well a basement functioned. Shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.
In France, the current movement is to use curvilinear thinshell concrete combined with PAHS. There's a venerated tradition of thinshell concrete Maison Bulles, bubble houses. Unbelievably uncomfortable winter and summer. PAHS solves that.
Two years ago a young Frenchman I helped with PAHS for his thinshell concrete in the shape of a nautilus talked me into a 9 day road trip to visit these famous houses. He knew everybody. Take a peek at one of the most famous.
Maison Bulle Cardins
Are we assuming the wavy homecenter fiberglass or Kalwall's Sun-Lite flat sheets? I recycled 3000 sq ft of Kalwall translucent panels made with Sun-Lite in my outbuildings. They offer a proprietary coating, suggested application every 5 years.
My experience with Kalwall left a lot to be desired. I was asking simple adhesion questions and they got hostile that I was re-using the product. Need to get these incredibly expensive panels re-coated before they fuzz and discolor.
BTW, strong recommendation to anyone who has an opportunity to grab Sun-Lite cheap to do so. Works extremely well as grow cones. My source was water tubes removed from a townhome complex, originally used in a futile attempt to increase mass. That small mass didn't make a significant difference.
Grow Cones
My experience with Kalwall left a lot to be desired. I was asking simple adhesion questions and they got hostile that I was re-using the product. Need to get these incredibly expensive panels re-coated before they fuzz and discolor.
BTW, strong recommendation to anyone who has an opportunity to grab Sun-Lite cheap to do so. Works extremely well as grow cones. My source was water tubes removed from a townhome complex, originally used in a futile attempt to increase mass. That small mass didn't make a significant difference.
Grow Cones
George, in every humid climate mold is an issue. Above grade houses need enough air conditioning that it often dehumidifies adequately. Anybody who doesn't need air conditioning (me) needs to dehumidify. Real simple, and a part of the air system in all of these houses. You must have missed that when you planned your house.
I also stress adequate air changes, particularly because today's tight houses create unhealthy indoor air. My indoor air is actually superior to outdoor, visitors often notice. No allergens (pollens) or smoke inside here.
Too bad you didn't figure out how to fix your house. Probably all it needed was a good air system.
I also stress adequate air changes, particularly because today's tight houses create unhealthy indoor air. My indoor air is actually superior to outdoor, visitors often notice. No allergens (pollens) or smoke inside here.
Too bad you didn't figure out how to fix your house. Probably all it needed was a good air system.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Tom, I don't figure I have a problem with the air in my houses. All my places are total electric, baseboard heat. Compared to porpane, natural and heat pumps, my electrical bill is hundreds below theirs. During the record cold month, I paid $316 for heating and all the electricity I used for hot water heater, stove, lighting, refrigerator, electricity in work shop. During the months when I don't air condition and heat, spring and fall, my electric bill is $80-90. So bottom line I may have paid $225 for heating during a record cold month.
Seriously, there is no way a heat pump would ever pay for itself, even if it saved me all of the $225. According to the internet, the AVERAGE life of a heat pump used all the time is 14 years. It said tht very few lasted 21 years. If I saved $500 a year on a heat pump, 15 years = $7500, the cost of an air to air heat pump.
Now I know this will cause a stir, I did some research in the internet. It says most heat pumps are lucky to save $250 a year, both heating and cooling, $.085 per kw-hr. It also said heat pumps are costly to maintain. Now if you talk to someone who has one, or sells them and you get a totally different opinion. Some will tell you their heat pump came over on the Mayflower and it saves them $1000.
I like to use the tried and proven, caulking and insulation. My homes have a minimum of R20 in walls, R50 attic. Thermal pain windows, brick siding, insulated doors. I spend money on making a well insulated home over alternative heat sources.
I have rental houses, 5 have basements. The humidity in my area requires either I use dehumidifiers or centeral air to control moisture. Venting a basement in the summer is like pouring gas on a fire. You want to keep the moisture out, not vent.
Thanks for your info.
George
Seriously, there is no way a heat pump would ever pay for itself, even if it saved me all of the $225. According to the internet, the AVERAGE life of a heat pump used all the time is 14 years. It said tht very few lasted 21 years. If I saved $500 a year on a heat pump, 15 years = $7500, the cost of an air to air heat pump.
Now I know this will cause a stir, I did some research in the internet. It says most heat pumps are lucky to save $250 a year, both heating and cooling, $.085 per kw-hr. It also said heat pumps are costly to maintain. Now if you talk to someone who has one, or sells them and you get a totally different opinion. Some will tell you their heat pump came over on the Mayflower and it saves them $1000.
I like to use the tried and proven, caulking and insulation. My homes have a minimum of R20 in walls, R50 attic. Thermal pain windows, brick siding, insulated doors. I spend money on making a well insulated home over alternative heat sources.
I have rental houses, 5 have basements. The humidity in my area requires either I use dehumidifiers or centeral air to control moisture. Venting a basement in the summer is like pouring gas on a fire. You want to keep the moisture out, not vent.
Thanks for your info.
George
Right George, I'm not a heatpump fan either, though I do use one summers to heat water. It provides cheap hot water (compared to electric resistance) and gives me 50% of my needed dehumidification for free, but that's not the type of heat pump you meant.
The sole use we have for a normal space heatpump is to get a mortgage. It's the small cost of getting needed financing. I didn't need financing, so no heatpump.
What we do find is that building as I did is cheaper than stickbuilt, and has no maintenance. Also won't burn or blow away. A $100 electric bill, including well pump and heating water, would be large. Wish I got electricity as cheap as you do.
You're clearly doing well with your methods. You're also dealing with existing houses, which is usually cheaper than building.
No argument here. Other than indoor air quality, and if your houses leak enough air, they're healthy. New houses often do not. A blower door test reveals everything.
The sole use we have for a normal space heatpump is to get a mortgage. It's the small cost of getting needed financing. I didn't need financing, so no heatpump.
What we do find is that building as I did is cheaper than stickbuilt, and has no maintenance. Also won't burn or blow away. A $100 electric bill, including well pump and heating water, would be large. Wish I got electricity as cheap as you do.
You're clearly doing well with your methods. You're also dealing with existing houses, which is usually cheaper than building.
No argument here. Other than indoor air quality, and if your houses leak enough air, they're healthy. New houses often do not. A blower door test reveals everything.
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
It's flat fiberglass, don't know much else, other than it's rather yellow.
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy