frost line?

Ellis Kinney · Feb 28, 2014

I heard on a local tv channel last night that the ground in Minnesota was frozen 8 feet deep. Can this be possible? What is the frost line there? Ellis

Brian Schmidt · Feb 28, 2014

We are seeing 6-7' in NE Iowa. Water lines all over freezing up.

Janicholson · Feb 28, 2014

My water lines in St.Cloud are at 9 to my house, with 28 inches of snow on most of it. We leave water running (with the city"s adjusted rate) to assure they stay open. The main is at 14" below the ice covered street. Many mains and service to homes from mains are freezing. In St. Cloud we get our Water directly from the Mississippi it is at 34 degrees when harvested, and not much warmer when processed and put into the mains. Our home is 2 blocks from the Treatment plant.
My basement and footings are at 9 feet, no issues yet. There is bedrock (granite) at 16 feet, and the sub soil is gravel with 18 inches of black sandy loam on top. We have had 3 days at or above freezing in the past 2.5 months. With two strings of 20 days or more below zero. Current temp is about 9 tonight NOAA indicates:
Low: -10 °F
tomorrow
High: -2 °F
Saturday
Night
Low: -22 °F
Sunday
High: 0 °F
Sunday
Night
Low: -20 °F
Monday
High: 5 °F
Monday
Night
Chance Snow Chance for Measurable Precipitation 30%
Chance
Snow
Low: -5 °F
Tuesday
Chance Snow Chance for Measurable Precipitation 30%
Chance
Snow
High: 14 °F
Tuesday
Night
Slight Chance Snow Chance for Measurable Precipitation 20%
Slight Chc
Snow
Low: 2 °F
NUF SAID Jim

oj · Feb 28, 2014

north of the 49th parallel, 6 to 8 feet of frost aren't that unusual... we replaced a water line to the cattle yards 3 years ago that was causing us problems, originally at 6ft with some blue styrofoam insulation on top of it... now where it crosses the roadway to the yards we trenched it in at 12 ft, the rest at 10 ft, no problems so far, and less animals using that particular yard this year too... hope i haven't just jinxed myself...

Mr.Obvious · Feb 28, 2014

Yes very possible especially if there is no snow cover and even more so if it is a path of travel whether it be foot traffic or vehicle traffic.

Bob · Feb 28, 2014

NOT uncommon to the west, here in ND. Our little town has has several main breaks already this winter and they are 8 or 9 feet deep.

oldtanker · Feb 28, 2014

I'm in west MN near Battle Lake. Yes the frost is that deep. There are some people without water in BL now. A friend there is currently without water. He is coming out here and filling 5 gallon jugs so he has water and can flush his toilet. Another town close to me just today informed the residents to leave a faucet trickling 24/7 to help keep the pipes and sewer lines open.

Rick

tomtirediron · Feb 28, 2014

If you Google (MNDOT frost depths) you'll see Minnesota Department of Transportation has sensors buried in roads throughout the state to aid in knowing when to remove spring weight restrictions. Current depths on several are at 96" and that"s as deep as they read. I would guess 100" could be possible in the roadways.

paul · Feb 28, 2014

My part of MN we are supposed to be good at 5 feet.

Under driveways and other cleared areas 6 feet is a little smarter.

See a lot of backhoe work in town the last few weeks, and we are going through one more cold snap of teens below zero the next couple days.

One of the water pits (where pipes join together and valves and stuff between barns and well) froze the pipes at the bottom yesterday. About 7 feet deep. Took 30 gallons of hot water to get it running. Today took 10 gallons of hot water.

Need to keep that going over the next 3 days.......

Paul

Steve@Advance · Feb 28, 2014

Thank God I've never had to deal with that type of cold!

Frost line? Here in Texas that means the air conditioner needs a shot of refrigerant! LOL

Seriously, doesn't the ground freezing that deep cause foundation problems? Isn't that why houses have basements to get below the frost line, but 8 ft? Are most basements that deep?

MN Scott · Feb 28, 2014

Depends on if you have snow cover. I was blowing snow yesterday to uncover some hay. The hay is next to a fence line and has had snow drifted over it since December. The ground under the snow was not frozen. The first week of February a contractor put up a pole shed for me. He had to clear about 14 inches of snow from the site at that time. The frost was 16 inches deep. The floor drain from my shop runs on the surface about 50 foot from my shop. I have a hole dug about 2 foot deep that it drains into and covered with a 2 inch thick piece of foam. There is about 3 foot of snow over the foam. I have been washing vehicles and machinery and the water disappears. Moral of the story, snow is an excellent insulator. Bare ground, better be running your water if your not in deep enough.

sms · Mar 1, 2014

Step-son was working on a project upstate NY near Massena some years back, they had to dig across road and yes there was 8' of frost.

chevytaHOE5674 · Mar 1, 2014

Frost was 8-9 feet deep UP here as of last wednesday and its been close to -30 since then so I'm sure its even deeper. The people on city are all on a "let run" notice and even then the village workers are busy all day thawing out pipes and digging up mains. 10 day forecast shows more below zero weather so it will only get worse.

Geo-TH,In · Mar 1, 2014

If the frost line is 8 ft, how deep would you have to put a geo thermal heat pump?

JDemaris · Mar 1, 2014

I've got a frozen water line right now at a house I'm rehabbing in northern Michigan. It's 6 feet deep with a driveway going over it. I suspect the frost is deeper due to the driveway with no snow cover. So the line is 6 feet deep and I have no idea how deep the frost is.

Janicholson · Mar 1, 2014

THe selection of earth heat depends on that question. The answer is arrived at through consideration of soil type, and climate zone/frost depth. 15 feet is not uncommon with a horizontal grid of collection tubing in cold locations. Other options include one way pumped well source (pretty common where the outflow can get percolation back to the aquifer). another is two wells separated by several feet or in some cases yards that draw from one and inject into the other, a recommended practice where wasting ground water would be a very bad idea. and one other where water level in a well is 20' or so above the bottom of the casing, is to usw a down the well heat exchanger with pumped fluid in the exchanger. I hope this helps, earth temps vary from about 50 degrees at 3 meters, to 60 degrees at 3 meters in southern areas of the US. There are charts, my numbers are approximate and local measurements are easy to make in a well casing. Jim

rrlund · Mar 1, 2014

With all the snow out there insulating the ground,I wonder if there is much frost? We've had snow since before it was really cold enough to freeze much. I had to move about 4 feet of snow a few weeks ago to get to some bales in a fence row and when I got down too deep,I was tearing up the sod in huge chunks of just wet ground.
I've got a water line running under a class A road and one under a driveway,but both of those are inside another pipe so there's an air space,so if the frost is driven down there it won't matter much.

Geo-TH,In · Mar 1, 2014

15 ft, that's got to jack the price.

How deep do you have to put septic tanks, 15 ft?

Where I live, the bottom of a foundation only has be 24 inches below grade. Water lines 3 ft.

Russ from MN · Mar 1, 2014

A septic tank will not usually freeze if it is being used. We just got back from 2 months down south and ours is fine, checked it yesterday. It only has a foot of dirt over it but 2 feet of snow, but there were lots of -25 nights while we were gone.

Janicholson · Mar 1, 2014

We are on city sewer, but the sewer lines parallel the water (5 foot separation) Septic tanks and drain fields do freeze in some locations, 31/2 feet on the lines with 1 in 12 pitch keeps them pretty clear. Tanks bottom might be 7 to 8 feet but they stay warm from the air gap (if you could call it air) over the liquid, the digestion action, and ground heat from below. New systems in MN as far as I know are Mound designs that are engineered systems and not deep in the original undisturbed earth.
These seem to be imune to freezing as well, at least I have not heard of issues. Jim

Super-H-Mike · Mar 1, 2014

My water line to the barn is frozen, it has been in the ground for over 80 years, and this is only the second time that has ever happened as far as my father recalled. It does go under the yard which gets plowed , and erosion has probably put it a little higher too. Not sure how deep its buried, but the newspaper is reporting 6-8 foot frost depths here in Minnesota. No relief for at least another week.... I have been hauling water , which gets old fast !

wijim · Mar 1, 2014

For all who live where it does not freeze to deep, the frost goes deeper where the ground is traveled on. Also if there is little or no snow cover the frost will go deeper.
Now if say you have 3' of snow on the ground from the first freeze you may have no frost at all. And most of the time there is no frost under snow piles. Jim

frost line?

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