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turbo a wisconsin VH4D

D

dreadnought4629

New User
this is probly a stupid question but with no money issue and damn good mechanic/fabrication skills do you think a wisconsin VH4d would handle a turbo pushing about 4-7 psi of boost? yes fab'ed exhaust and intake manifolds, and probly a draw through system in other words the carb in front of the turbo and its LPG fuel... what do you guys think? :roll:
 
The bottom end and head gaskets would be fine IF detonation and knock does not occur. However the mixture ever leans out, if timing is over advanced. If a batch of low grade fuel i ever run through it. All bets are off.
A valve in block flat head engine is noted for their tendency to detonate. Due to the lack of quench and squish between the head and piston. Water injection and 94 octane fuel would be required.
There would be more success with a whipple super charger from a Buick 3800 . Than with a turbo.
 
Just about any internal combustion engine can see a
power increase by adding boost and increasing fuel
delivery. My question is why a flathead Wisonsin?
It has no pressure-oiling to the main and rod
bearings, poor air flow, square-cut rings instead
of Keystone, etc. Seems a poor candidate to me. I
suspect it would have detonation problems even you
even upped the mechanical-compression ratio to 9 to
1. Adding boost will increase the "effective
compression ratio" probably higher.
 
Running LP would be great,it is cold going in, lower btu= more fuel to make power. Can we test it out on my lawn mower? :)
I really think you need a pusher system, cold LP through a hot turbo?
 
Id say go for it, sounds like a fun experiment regardless of how well it works. Issues that come to my mind are the Turbo bearing lubrication and sufficient air flow pressure and volume to drive the impeller etc. Perhaps instead of exhaust gasses spinning the turbo some sort of a belt driven unit like the old Paxton (think that's right) superchargers when I was a kid. If I recall (NO Warranty) they were "blowers" instead of superchargers. Of course, hot rodders used to use GMC 671 belt driven blowers but that's much bigger then what you need and would take a lot of HP to drive one.

LET US KNOW YOUR RESULTS

John T
 
The "Paxton" supercharger was invented by the same guy that created McCulloch chainsaws . . . Robert Paxton McCulloch. Very interesting guy that did a lot more then just chainsaws.
 
Well right off you are going to need a small electric oil pump or get a gear /belt driven oil pump. Got to have pressure oil for the turbo.
Lots of small turbos on smaller import tractor and cars , should not be hard to find one that the exaust would turn.
 
Fun info, thanks. If I recall (been a longgggggg time) the Paxton so called "supercharger" (what Id consider a blower) was belt driven and forced air into the carbs air intake VERSUS a unit that was UNDER the carb and forced the fuel/air mixture into the manifold. For the big block high performance V8 I recall the belt driven GMC 671 so called "superchargers" which had much more CFM and pressure boost then the smaller lighter Paxton units. Again, this is from olddddddddddddd memory cells so no warranty lol

As always, performance chat is fun

John T
 
I think it was the missing Dell(WA) that years ago had on here about using a smog pump from a car of the 70's possibly 80's on the either the N serirs flat head or the NAA series overhead valve tractor. Thought about trying it on my 9N but not good enough of a mechanic. And after setting apart for 9 years I have to get it back together this year.
 
Agreed.

The blow through system as once used by Studebaker used a readily available non-sealed carburetor but it was enclosed inside an air tight "box" to prevent the air pressure from forcinig the gasoline out.

Dean
 
Dell did indeed recommend an air injection reactor (smog) pump from a large displacement, e.g., 454, automotive engine as a blower for the 120 CI Ford flathead N engine but so far as I know, no one has done it.

Dean
 
I agree this would be on the same page as a Briggs and Stratton. Increasing the cooling system capacity with higher velocity copper Orings on the cylinders, and no piston cooling jets pretty much guarantee a lump of melted metal. Jim
 
I'm all for it...until you remember that this is an air-cooled Wisconsin. The same motor that a lot of farmers just left idling during a hot noon hour because the thing wouldn't start with the carb sitting between four hot cylinders.
 
Just wondering, what the engine will be used for?

Is it a showpiece with no particular job to do
other than start it up and watch it run?

In that case, the sky is the limit, go for it.

But if it's going to be a working engine,
especially if it's underpowered and you're going
to be running it hard, I see melted pistons and
over heating problems.

An air cooled engine has it's limits.
 
Somewhere on the internet you can find a kit with instructions. Basically a 454 smog pump mounted on brackets and driven by the fan belt. NAA carb turned around so it mates with outflow from smog pump. Fairly easy to do. As I recall, it gives about 6" HG over atmospheric.
 
One of the places I worked for years ago, before going in for myself, used to have a customer with concrete saws that had turboed Wisconsins on them. In that instance I think they were the higher HP V460's or V465's instead of the VH4's but it's been too long ago to remember all the details. What I do remember is that every time one came to us the turbo had gone out.

That said, the footprint of a V460/V465 isn't that much larger than the VH4's and gives around 20 to 30 extra HP, depending on the exact model, without any alteration. Some of the old New Holland skid steers had a high flow option on the hydraulics that was made possible by changing out the smaller 30 HP V4 engine with the larger 60+ HP series. I looked into one awhile back and they can be had used for around $2000 to $2500, but if you want a reman your looking around $5000.

The way I'm looking at it, by the time you spend money on all the manifolds, a small turbo, etc, etc you'll probably have well over $2500 invested in what would be at best a questionable setup. On the other hand you can spend the same amount, or a little more, and have a tried and true engine setting there with more HP than the turboed engine would ever produce.
 
You cannot pressurize any vintage Ford tractor carburetor as they are not designed for boost.


The only way you can use such carburetor without completely enclosing it in a pressure chamber is in a draw through system.

Dean
 
here's a quote from dell(WA) on the subject dated 21 sep 1998, although he discussed this on a quite a few other occasions: " suprizingly enuff, flathead engines take well to supercharging. I've been championing "Dirt Cheap Supercharger" by Steven Richmond (do a google search). Use a smog-pump from a BIG 454 Chevy and aa NAA Jubilee carb so the mouth faces the pump output. Brackets are on your own. Convert to sidemount 12v alternator scheme so the genny ain't in the way. readsome hot-rod books on supercharging. Ought to up yer 23 hp 9N to 40hp.....Dell".
 
I would expect if you try to squeeze very much additional hp out of it would overheat, that's why most higher performance engines are liquid cooled.
 

well this is the tricky part its set up for LPG but i was thinking of HHO (electrolysis process) where you take water and an electrolyte and run a DC current and it creates hydrogen and oxy gas ton of people have put it on their cars and other things dirt cheep fuel! runs a lil hotter but i was thinking of runing aluminum/copper lines in the fins and run them to a pritty good size radiator... maybe?
 
i was thinking of putting it on a sprint car frame that my friend has run it through a VW beetle/karma/bus transaxle for a off-road vehicle.
 
so from that you think the V4 would handle pretty good?

and how much boost do you guys think i could do with out any major internal changes maybe 10 psi?
 
(quoted from post at 21:08:16 01/25/14)
well this is the tricky part its set up for LPG but i was thinking of HHO (electrolysis process) where you take water and an electrolyte and run a DC current and it creates hydrogen and oxy gas ton of people have put it on their cars and other things dirt cheep fuel! runs a lil hotter
Click to expand...

You should forget about the project as you don't understand the most basic laws of physics.
 
(quoted from post at 21:14:47 01/25/14) so from that you think the V4 would handle pretty good?

and how much boost do you guys think i could do with out any major internal changes maybe 10 psi?
Click to expand...

10psi if operated on E85 fuel with a rich enough mixture.
All this talk of a 454 smog pump. Has nobody ever seen a whipple supercharger on a 3800 Buick?
 
(quoted from post at 21:32:39 01/25/14)
(quoted from post at 21:08:16 01/25/14)
well this is the tricky part its set up for LPG but i was thinking of HHO (electrolysis process) where you take water and an electrolyte and run a DC current and it creates hydrogen and oxy gas ton of people have put it on their cars and other things dirt cheep fuel! runs a lil hotter
Click to expand...

You should forget about the project as you don't understand the most basic laws of physics.
Click to expand...

what do you mean by that?
 
(quoted from post at 12:11:20 01/26/14)
(quoted from post at 21:32:39 01/25/14)
(quoted from post at 21:08:16 01/25/14)
well this is the tricky part its set up for LPG but i was thinking of HHO (electrolysis process) where you take water and an electrolyte and run a DC current and it creates hydrogen and oxy gas ton of people have put it on their cars and other things dirt cheep fuel! runs a lil hotter
Click to expand...

You should forget about the project as you don't understand the most basic laws of physics.
Click to expand...

what do you mean by that?
Click to expand...

Do you believe that you an operate an alternator from the engine. Use the DC to split water into H2 fuel. And have enough H2 to operate the engine.
 
(quoted from post at 12:21:27 01/26/14)
(quoted from post at 12:11:20 01/26/14)
(quoted from post at 21:32:39 01/25/14)
(quoted from post at 21:08:16 01/25/14)
well this is the tricky part its set up for LPG but i was thinking of HHO (electrolysis process) where you take water and an electrolyte and run a DC current and it creates hydrogen and oxy gas ton of people have put it on their cars and other things dirt cheep fuel! runs a lil hotter
Click to expand...

You should forget about the project as you don't understand the most basic laws of physics.
Click to expand...

what do you mean by that?
Click to expand...

Do you believe that you an operate an alternator from the engine. Use the DC to split water into H2 fuel. And have enough H2 to operate the engine.
Click to expand...

yes build the H2 generator right ill have plenty... the more surface area the more bubbles and it doesnt take that many amps... even if it doesnt make enough i may be able to do a mixture...
 
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