Chris Jones
Member
I wonder how easily the factory converts to other vehicles--still this has got to be a very expensive factory.
VW manufacturing plant
VW manufacturing plant
- Thread starter Chris Jones
- Start date
I toured the Toyota plant at Princeton In. You can just show up and they will either take you for a tour, or give you a time that day. They start unloading the steel(just made a few miles away) to a new Van going 75 mph at full power on the dyno. You ride around on a electric golf cart type thing. Every body wears a uniform also. You can't say you need to take off to get your hair cut or go to the doctor, because everything is there. When you guys go to Princeton check it out.
Mike nope. For US made cars about 37% of the cost in wages and bennies for current employees. Another 29-30% is retirement and medical bennies paid to retirees. Because of the UAW one son friend started at CaseIH in Fargo at 18 an hour plus bennies. And all he was doing was counting welds for quality control. Guy who gets hired to sweep the floor makes the same money.
Rick
Retiree pensions and bennies were all seperated from GM during the bankruprtcy and reorganization. Fidelity has our pensions, a trust has our bennies, if one or both fail, we are sol. At GM, starting pay is about $14 per hour, topping out for new hires @17. New hires don't get a pension or health care in retirement. Things like cleaning are contracted out now. The days of going into a factory and making a middle class wage are quickly going away. I am a GM retiree. When I hired in, GM had 618,000 US employees. The total now is under 50K. In fact, they might soon have more engineers and admins than workers. It's a different world.
I don't get how working class people just love to tear down the unions. Fact of the matter is, if wages had kept up with the rising price of goods over the last 50 or so years, all full-time employees should be making between $20 and $30 dollars/hr.
I have a union job in the transportation industry that allows me to support my wife and five kids well. The company has been making quarter over quarter record profits for at least ten years now, so it is a win-win situation for all involved. Look at what Wal-mart's business model has done for working people. They also make record profits all the time, but don't share much with their employees. Each Walton heir is worth around $35 billion last time I checked.
I've been a conservative all my life, who's always voted nnalert. But I sure don't like their attitude towards working people very much. They like to use the union issue to divide working class people. The nnalert are way, way too abundant. We need a new party!
I have a union job in the transportation industry that allows me to support my wife and five kids well. The company has been making quarter over quarter record profits for at least ten years now, so it is a win-win situation for all involved. Look at what Wal-mart's business model has done for working people. They also make record profits all the time, but don't share much with their employees. Each Walton heir is worth around $35 billion last time I checked.
I've been a conservative all my life, who's always voted nnalert. But I sure don't like their attitude towards working people very much. They like to use the union issue to divide working class people. The nnalert are way, way too abundant. We need a new party!
Sad---but I have had more the a few car dealers tell me that most people are not really concerned with the price because they are going to have a car payment--for the rest of their life!!
They are more concerned with the amount of monthly payment!
SOOOOOO as long as many people feel that way, price will only go up.
They are more concerned with the amount of monthly payment!
SOOOOOO as long as many people feel that way, price will only go up.
Why is it that pro-union people use the term "working people" as if union members are the only people on earth that work??? Many non-union people work just as hard and often harder. Union jobs should pay the same as the private sector. It's no wonder that union membership is dying in the USA except where forced on people or with government jobs.
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
I think at one time unions were necessary, and did good things. But I am one of those who think they killed the goose that laid their golden egg.
I am convinced that unions are what ran lots of jobs out to Mexico and Asia.
I never belonged to a union and was making $39 and hour plus full benefits when I retired.
Gene
I am convinced that unions are what ran lots of jobs out to Mexico and Asia.
I never belonged to a union and was making $39 and hour plus full benefits when I retired.
Gene
Tony in Bama
Member
Did you ever consider the possibility that ever-rising union wages, benefits, and retirement programs had a little something to do with the rising price of goods?
Unions do nothing more than perpetuate and protect incompetent workers. Go back to the beginning of the US labor movement and you'll see that they were in bed with Marxists. Nothing much has changed.....
Unions do nothing more than perpetuate and protect incompetent workers. Go back to the beginning of the US labor movement and you'll see that they were in bed with Marxists. Nothing much has changed.....
dcarp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Schulenburg Texas
What a engineering marvel. Unfortunately another example of why the USA is lagging behind in manufacturing. Capital expenditures here are very small, instead the companies moved to 3rd world countries and pay pennies to the workers.
CEO's making $30-100 million a year and outsourcing everything all over the world.
Supply trams shown in the video are another example of USA being behind. Mass transit there is light years ahead of this country. We have traffic everywhere, trucks & cars jostling for spots on the crumbling roads & bridges.
Washington & Wall Street are getting rich while this country disintegrates with aging infrastructure, growing poverty and rising crime. God help America if change does not come.
CEO's making $30-100 million a year and outsourcing everything all over the world.
Supply trams shown in the video are another example of USA being behind. Mass transit there is light years ahead of this country. We have traffic everywhere, trucks & cars jostling for spots on the crumbling roads & bridges.
Washington & Wall Street are getting rich while this country disintegrates with aging infrastructure, growing poverty and rising crime. God help America if change does not come.
Today's cars, with few exceptions, are the best cars to ever hit the roads. My first new car, 1957, cost me $2250. Big standard US 4 door sedan, V8 engine, auto-trans, radio and heavy duty heater. (heaters were optional equipment back then). 17 mpg. Now, I could get a car somewhat like that one only it would be difficult if not impossible to de-select, air-conditioning, power brakes, power windows, traction control, electronic stability control, ABS, heated rear window, tinted glass, air bags, power seats, power locks, CD player, aux audio input, seatbelts, 6 speakers, tilt telescope steering wheel, tachometer, radial tires that last 4 times longer than tires "back then", power outlets, rear camera w/park sensors, low tire press indicator, cruise control, and, of course, CUP HOLDERS! That big 4 door sedan I just described has an MSRP of $24628 and my price after discount would be $19628 excl tax and registration. Not even 10 times what I paid in 1957 and a LOT better car that should go 200k without any major problems. Needless to say, I'm making a lot more than 10 times as much money than in 1957 when I made $1.00 an hour.
Except for cities that have had mass transit for it very hard for any city to convince people to use mass transit. People like the convenience of a car/truck. So the idea of mass transit is hard to sell to non users.
As far as jobs moving off shore that is more the fault of the general buying public than of the CEO's. If you are running a company you have to compete against any other company making or selling a similar product. So if the buying public buys based on price and they (your competitors) are importing a product much cheaper than you can make it in the states you too will have to "out source" or close your doors. It's as simple as that. The government isn't helping much. When they forced the auto makers to spin off some of their companies the cost for things like starter and charging systems went up. To keep the cost of a car down they now have them made overseas.
The supply trams system works in Germany because the have an above ground lite rail system in most city areas. They build that factory in a down town area near the Ebaun tracks to start with. If you look many of our factories are serviced both by trucks and by rail. The rail system has gotten smaller with rail roads stopping service on non profitable routes. There use to be a track on the north side of our farm. It serviced 3 small towns grain elevators, 2 implement dealers and 2 lumber yards. When the farm economy crashed in the 80's 2 of the 3 elevators and both dealers went under. So they stopped using that route. Wasn't profitable. About 20 years ago they pulled up the track to reduce their liability.
The top countries for manufacturing currently are:
1. China (no surprise, they took top honors in 2010)
2. USA
3. Japan
So we do indeed make stuff here. The unions and certain politicians like to have us believe otherwise.
Rick
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
New vehicles are a better bargain they they were 25 yrs ago. Much more for the dollar.
I even compared what I paid for my 2003 truck and what a 2014 replacement would cost. The 2014 new truck costs less in 2003 dollars than the 2003 did. Better and more capable vehicle too.
I even compared what I paid for my 2003 truck and what a 2014 replacement would cost. The 2014 new truck costs less in 2003 dollars than the 2003 did. Better and more capable vehicle too.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Jealous of you small paycheque vs the union. You go union in a minute for $40hr if it was offered to you.
dcarp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Schulenburg Texas
Your figures are close but the order for the top 3 in 2013 is:
1. China
2. Germany
3. USA
Now if we took agriculture & software out of the figures the USA would drop even further. And if we took oil out of the picture also, the USA might drop to 5th place. Another year or two India will probably jump over Japan & the USA. True, we make some things here just not real nuts and bolts things.
1. China
2. Germany
3. USA
Now if we took agriculture & software out of the figures the USA would drop even further. And if we took oil out of the picture also, the USA might drop to 5th place. Another year or two India will probably jump over Japan & the USA. True, we make some things here just not real nuts and bolts things.
It is my belief that one of the greatest problem with this country is ----- TOO MANY people drawing a Government paycheck. And that doesn't include the "extended" unemployment benefits!!
The Government is the largest employer in this country, but I don't know how long this has been going on??
The Government is the largest employer in this country, but I don't know how long this has been going on??
LOL just looked at another source that claims
China
Japan
USA
Germany in that order.
Doesn't matter. We still make a lot of stuff in the US. Doesn't matter if it's software or crops or manufactured goods. All put people to work. And it's the buying public that decides what to buy and at what price. We could bar imports or tax the heck out of them but then the countries that import from us would do the same.
Rick
Tony in Bama
Member
Try again buddy. I earn a very healthy salary and I've never been a member of a union in my life.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
"healthy" salary is not an actual number.
Tony in Bama
Member
You seem to be a little slow on the uptake, so let me put it this way: my salary is none of your business.
Why is it that you waste so much time worrying about what other people make? If you would make better use of that time by perfecting your craft, then your skills could actually earn a better salary in the market and you wouldn't have to hide behind a union that artificially inflates your value.
It would be a win-win situation as your self-esteem would improve by knowing that you are actually worth what you are paid, and the rest of us would enjoy lower prices of goods/services once the union cut was removed.
Why is it that you waste so much time worrying about what other people make? If you would make better use of that time by perfecting your craft, then your skills could actually earn a better salary in the market and you wouldn't have to hide behind a union that artificially inflates your value.
It would be a win-win situation as your self-esteem would improve by knowing that you are actually worth what you are paid, and the rest of us would enjoy lower prices of goods/services once the union cut was removed.
I take great pride in my work as I really enjoy my job...no self-esteem issues here. Not very many union members in my line of work use the union as an excuse to sluff off. The mileage factor gives most everyone extra incentive to get over the road.
Let me let you in on a little secret...there are slobs in both the union and non-union ranks. I used to work in a non-union factory doing hard, hard work for little pay and there were jerk-offs there too. Personally, the good wage I earn makes me feel like I need to give it my all. Don't lump everyone together.
Let me let you in on a little secret...there are slobs in both the union and non-union ranks. I used to work in a non-union factory doing hard, hard work for little pay and there were jerk-offs there too. Personally, the good wage I earn makes me feel like I need to give it my all. Don't lump everyone together.
It's not about the working hard - it's about getting paid for what your work is worth - a union is just what the name implies - a group of workers banding together to negotiate fair wages with the 'fat cats' that run the show. There has been a lot of abuse of one by the other and vice versa but if both sides do their jobs at the negotiating table it will be good for the whole crew - one hand washing the other. Can unions get too much power and use that power to drag a company or industry down? Sure they can and have BUT if the company negotiators don't do their jobs and the union's crew does ....... well, who's the goat then? By the way; you seen any UPS drivers loafing on the job lately? :twisted:
A union is a group of workers banding together to extort more money from a company in todays world by shutting the company down with strikes.
Want to see some government waste caused by unions? A non union company can bid a job for the government but they have to pay union scale so unionized companies have a chance to win the contract. No that is a waste. If a company can do the work to standard, on time for less money because they pay below union scale then that's who should get the contract.
No way, no how are you going to convince me that a guy putting a few screws in the fender of a car is skilled labor that deserves union scale. Want a decent wage? Go to school and learn a marketable skill.
Rick
Want to see some government waste caused by unions? A non union company can bid a job for the government but they have to pay union scale so unionized companies have a chance to win the contract. No that is a waste. If a company can do the work to standard, on time for less money because they pay below union scale then that's who should get the contract.
No way, no how are you going to convince me that a guy putting a few screws in the fender of a car is skilled labor that deserves union scale. Want a decent wage? Go to school and learn a marketable skill.
Rick
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Says you collecting near union wages after a union negotiated those wages, a 40hr work week and benefits for you.
Not I. There are few unions here and I'm semi retired and farming, never held a job that pays my retirement that was supported by any union. But the unions never supported the military.
And Henry Ford came up with the 40 hour work week. Then the government made it law for wages.
Rick
In my opinion, it's undeniable that unions did good things back in the day. Unions fought big business for the little guy. Unions also stalled the war effort in WW2, engaged with organized crime and dirty politicians and became a big business of their own. They have outlived their time in many ways. Today OSHA takes care of worker safety, a bit too much IMO. There are few union jobs that aren't connected in one way or another to either gov't or being employed through gov't contracts. Who else can afford to pay union wages? Many of the unions I see today are so corrupt it's sickening. SEIU is a fine example, some members are little more than Marxist thugs.
No, unions are not what they once were, and mores the shame of it. Greed and corruption. I saw it in my own job. We had a collective bargaining association, you had to belong if you took the job. They got fat and lazy and corrupted by the power. A big upheaval took place and a guy I knew became President and everything changed...for about 8 years. By then they were right back to being corrupt, fat and lazy- and boy, did they all have nice cars and offices paid for with our dues, attending conferences in Vegas or Miami 5-6 times a year on our dollar. somehow being able to afford to live a lot higher than other other members who weren't in the union hierarchy. Same thing everywhere from what I've seen. I have little use for unions.
No, unions are not what they once were, and mores the shame of it. Greed and corruption. I saw it in my own job. We had a collective bargaining association, you had to belong if you took the job. They got fat and lazy and corrupted by the power. A big upheaval took place and a guy I knew became President and everything changed...for about 8 years. By then they were right back to being corrupt, fat and lazy- and boy, did they all have nice cars and offices paid for with our dues, attending conferences in Vegas or Miami 5-6 times a year on our dollar. somehow being able to afford to live a lot higher than other other members who weren't in the union hierarchy. Same thing everywhere from what I've seen. I have little use for unions.
Tony in Bama
Member
No doubt that there are many hard workers that are members of unions; my father was one of them. There's also no doubt that there are many non-union loafers; the difference is that they are much easier to cull in a non-union environment - in fact, we had to do just that a few months back.
There is also no doubt that there are huge abuses in unions. One is the political clout they use to further corrupt our republic. Another is the fact that many unions have close ties with organized crime. Finally there is the fact that they protect mediocre workers, foster an environment that makes it difficult to reward excellence, and they throw roadblocks in the way of productive work. I've seen it happen numerous times with the CWA in cases where we've had significant outages that could have been quickly corrected by replacing a module. However, that was a union job and would result in a grievance if a non-union worker performed it, so it occasionally took hours to run down a union worker to restore an outage.
Bottom line is that every man should take pride in his work and give it his best, union or otherwise. However, if you choose to believe that unions are a wonderful influence on our economic well-being, then knock yourself out. I choose to disagree...
There is also no doubt that there are huge abuses in unions. One is the political clout they use to further corrupt our republic. Another is the fact that many unions have close ties with organized crime. Finally there is the fact that they protect mediocre workers, foster an environment that makes it difficult to reward excellence, and they throw roadblocks in the way of productive work. I've seen it happen numerous times with the CWA in cases where we've had significant outages that could have been quickly corrected by replacing a module. However, that was a union job and would result in a grievance if a non-union worker performed it, so it occasionally took hours to run down a union worker to restore an outage.
Bottom line is that every man should take pride in his work and give it his best, union or otherwise. However, if you choose to believe that unions are a wonderful influence on our economic well-being, then knock yourself out. I choose to disagree...
There are many people who talk about organized labor, who have a limited knowledge about the subject.
I hear people talking about the high wages that union members receive.
I was a member of IAM for 35 years while working as a machinist for a large Aluminum Plant.
I was previously a Tool&Die Maker working in a Non Union shop, and I took a cut in pay to work for this company because of insurance and retirement.
Over the years, at no time in my employment was I making more money, per hour, then any of the independent shops!!
Yes--there are good and bad things about Organized Labor, just like nearly everything else.
High wages did not kill unions--I think unions killed themselves, or weakened their power by not supporting the members!
If there had never been organized labor, we would probably have 12 year old children working long hours in unsafe conditions for very low wages like you see in many other countries.
Over the years, News Media and other sources quoted our wages with all benefits--including insurance and retirement added. That's why most people were under the impression that union employees made $35-$40 per hour, when in reality we were receiving about $19-$22 per hour!
I hear people talking about the high wages that union members receive.
I was a member of IAM for 35 years while working as a machinist for a large Aluminum Plant.
I was previously a Tool&Die Maker working in a Non Union shop, and I took a cut in pay to work for this company because of insurance and retirement.
Over the years, at no time in my employment was I making more money, per hour, then any of the independent shops!!
Yes--there are good and bad things about Organized Labor, just like nearly everything else.
High wages did not kill unions--I think unions killed themselves, or weakened their power by not supporting the members!
If there had never been organized labor, we would probably have 12 year old children working long hours in unsafe conditions for very low wages like you see in many other countries.
Over the years, News Media and other sources quoted our wages with all benefits--including insurance and retirement added. That's why most people were under the impression that union employees made $35-$40 per hour, when in reality we were receiving about $19-$22 per hour!
Nope, the government pass the child labor, 40 hour for pay and other laws to create more jobs. One made it cheaper to run 2 or 3 shifts to avoid paying time and a half. Another took a bunch of people out of the work force (kids).
As far as Wal Mart wages goes Wal Mart was never intended to a career unless you were management. Other than that it was designed to be a part time job for someone with no education or a retired trying to supplement SS retirement. Sorry but or country has been, for a lot of years, a place where you get done with high school and you go to school again to learn to be a mechanic, truck driver, politician, or doctor. Heck, the government wants you to go to school for 2 or more years again to KEEP YOU OUT OF THE JOB MARKET that much longer.
Rick
Jiles, can we get back to reality here? "In reality we were receiving $19-22.00 and hour". Great, and what were non-union workers doing the same job making? You don't provide any specifics, just the claim your wages were inflated to make you look bad. It's fundamentally dishonest to not provide the actual cost of employing you. You might be paid $20.00 an hour and have another $20.00 or more in benefits. It all adds up and you have to compare that to the non-union guy making $10.00 and hour doing the exact same job with much lower or no bennies. I see this all the time, this practice of ignoring the actual cost of an employee as opposed to what he takes home. The cost of employing you or a non-union man both need to have all the costs included to be able to make an accurate assessment.
There is a certain level you get to where the cost of employing people outweighs what profits you can make. If 2/3 the cost of a new auto is tied up in employee benefits or retirement costs, then the price of the product has to rise. So todays $75K luxury truck could theoretically be sold for 1/3 or more less if all the bennies weren't tied up in the price. A lot more new cars would be sold if the price were lower. Same with anything else. Look at public employment, your land and school taxes are high no doubt, due partially to all the union wages and bennies the workers get. Who pays the price for all the wagers and bennies? The taxpayer, the consumer. You make it sound as though it's a free ride for the taxpayer and consumer, as though business can just absorb employee costs. Not so, never has been. And that's why so many businesses leave the US.
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