A serious question.

I keep hearing that the EPA has gone wild and is now harassing legitimate/honest folks out of business.

So how is it that a little company in West Virginia, has not even been inspected by state, national or local since 1991, and was able to spill chemicals into the river and shut down the water supply, to drink or wash, in a 9 county area?

Lookout Cinci, it is now headed your way.

Just seems at odds with the EPA harassment argument I hear so frequently.

My thinking is they have not had time to do what they should, for all the ridiculous stuff they have been doing! They are not called the Eagle Protection Agency for nothing!

Go figure..... I think a little monitoring would be a good idea in this world, but what do I know?
Zach

More than likely if they are inspecting you and finding faults they are harassing you, if you haven't seen them then they aren't doing their jobs, not a lot of middle ground.
Word on the street a couple years ago was that OSHA was going to start doing more surprise inspections on small job sites like residential construction. I have not even heard of it actually happening.
Like everything, out there, if you agree with it then its no big deal but if you disagree then no one can convince you it is the right thing to do. It all depends on your viewpoint.

The residential inspections have been happening. Some contractors getting nailed for roofing safety issues. Some for lead safety issues on old windows.

Kind of funny that you should mention lead. I was helping at mom and dads this weekend and had to tear out part of an old ceiling, more than 6 square feet. By law I needed to wear a respirator, safety suit, plastic off the room, create a vacuum in the room to keep the dust contained, etc etc. Now mom is pretty well adhered to the left and all for more regulation of everything, but she suddenly didn't see the need for it when it concerned the work in her house. Like what I tried to explain above. Its OK to make rules for people, as long as it doesn't inconvenience ME. I'm pretty middle of the road except on one or two issues, there needs to be some oversight but freedom for people to reach their potential. Everyone draws that line in a different place in the sand.

(quoted from post at 23:44:52 01/13/14) Kind of funny that you should mention lead. I was helping at mom and dads this weekend and had to tear out part of an old ceiling, more than 6 square feet. By law I needed to wear a respirator, safety suit, plastic off the room, create a vacuum in the room to keep the dust contained, etc etc. Now mom is pretty well adhered to the left and all for more regulation of everything, but she suddenly didn't see the need for it when it concerned the work in her house. Like what I tried to explain above. Its OK to make rules for people, as long as it doesn't inconvenience ME. I'm pretty middle of the road except on one or two issues, there needs to be some oversight but freedom for people to reach their potential. Everyone draws that line in a different place in the sand.

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Yep those on the right also seem to accept govt paid for medical care, etc when it is their butt on the line.

Left or right it is different when it impacts them.

Exactly. It goes both ways

Yep talkin the talk is lots easier than walking the talk.

The little company CEO probably had nnalert friends in high places or heavily contributed to nnalert politicians because if your in the abundant click all is okie dokie.

Claim at the moment is a loophole or not covered in the existing laws. Saying since the place was just used for storage or material hauled in and out only, and since no material was produced there it wasn"t subject to checks.
Heats on now so everyone in politics is on there toes and in damage control and are saying they are looking at changes. May never know the whole story.
Guessing that company will declare bankruptcy now unless it can be linked with ownership to a big company.

Administrative rules and regulations can construed in many ways depending on an Adminstrative Law Judge. AND depending on the office in question and the political and media pressure that can be applied to an agency. West Virginia, HMMMMM???? In the past did they know the late Robert Byrd?

West Virginia has no use for the EPA or the external_link Administration as a whole. The people of WV gave more votes to a prisioner in Texas than they did external_link. There is still a lawsuit pending against the EPA filed by the govenor over surface mining.This company was in compliance with state laws at the time of the spill. The head of the Wv DEP said that that had no reason to inspect this facility due to current law, but I'm sure more new laws will be written to see that things like this don't happen again.There are thousands of tanks in the US holding numerous chemicals that could leak at any time, this one was just one of them.

From what I read they were not covered by the EPA because they were only storing the chemical not manufacturing it.

For the same reason the fertilizer plant that blew up in West, Texas was able to avoid inspection: it fell through the cracks.

Everyone is opposed to government regulation of businesses in their community, right up until their water supply is poisoned or their town is blown off the map.

Why is the chemical used is it because of EPA making the coal washed with the product that has not been covered

Yep those on the right also seem to accept govt paid for medical care, etc when it is their butt on the line.

Left or right it is different when it impacts them.

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The Gov't isn't paying for the health care, the TAXPAYER IS! Most on the right I know don't have a problem helping the elderly and infirm, it's the mutts sitting on their backside that is the problem. With our current near 14% UE rate, U6, and stifling tax programs it's no wonder no on can afford their own health care.

Some of you folks should get to deal with OSHA, EPA, IRS, etc. before you start talking about how great they are. They'll gloss over the violations of a multi-billion dollar multi-national corp and screw the small business guy, the one without the cadre of lawyers, to the wall.

Government regulations are kinda like medicine for diarrhea - apply too much and you plug up the whole system, but apply too little and you will have "stuff" slip thru the cracks. The key is to have a competent physician and, trust me, neither political party is qualified to prescribe relief for what ails this country.

(That"s my opinion - it oughta be yours.)

You guys shouldn't complain about the price of gasoline and diesel. When the EPA needs some money they just go inspect a refinery, fine them 15 million and go on there way. Oil companys just add it on to fuel to build the account up and get ready for the next time. The oil companys are like a duck on the river, easy pickens.

>I keep hearing that the EPA has gone wild and is now harassing legitimate/honest folks out of business.

So how is it that a little company in West Virginia, has not even been inspected by state, national or local since 1991, and was able to spill chemicals into the river and shut down the water supply, to drink or wash, in a 9 county area?
======

Think about what you said there.

Isn't what we complain about is exactly what happened? Exactly your quote?

Think about it......

Paul

The plant in West was helped along with a couple of pipe bombs. From a man that was fired from the local VFD.A few days before. He was caught with pipe bombs in his truck and more at his house.

I am in the fertilizer field. Word has spread about what really happened. Not just with rumors. But backed up with facts. Why the State is hiding the truth is unknown

The owners of the company were given assistance by
the bailouts in 2009, so we all know they were
"friendly" with the current administration in DC,
which also explains how they were able to stay out
of their authority. Of course any industry friendly
to the current occupation in DC will always get
special regulations, and anyone registered as
opposition will get the screws put to them. It has
been proven the IRS has been targeting anyone or
corporation that is registered as conservative.

I saw on the news that the particular chemical is not highly regulated because it is not hazardous by the definition used by the EPA. It is just that it got into the wrong place. It is kind of like when Hazardous chemicals were first invented in the 1970s and firefighters had to be trained in responding to hazmat incidents. We were taught that many materials are hazardous under certain situations even though they are not on the list. For example snow is a hazardous material when you are caught in an avalanche.

Assuming your bizarre conspiracy theory is true (which I doubt), does that somehow excuse the plant owners from storing 300 tons of ammonium nitrate within spitting distance of where hundreds of people live and work?

Not a theory. Check out Bryce Reed. 300 tons would be about a weeks supply during the season.

As I recall that chicken farmer they were harassing saying,they told her that if she'd just get the permit,they'd leave her alone. It was all about the money and the paperwork to make a government employee seem useful.

Sorry it does work that way. Fines go to the Treasury Department and can not be used in
as funding or any Agency operations because it was not appropriated by Congress.

When that plant was built. It was outside of town in the country. Fault should go to the ones that built around it

The EPA and other government regulations make it increasingly more difficult for businesses.

A good example is the US EPA RRP (lead paint) regs. They originally said the reason for the RRP program was because of low IQ's and behavioral problems with non-Hispanic black inner-city children (US EPA's terminology, not mine). So they came up with the regulations for the remodeling and painting industry that cost so much to comply with that price many customers out of the market or force them to go with fly-by-night contractors that don't comply with the regulations.

The RRP program does nothing to remove lead from the inner-city slum housing where the low IQ's and behavioral problems were said to be because slum landlords aren't doing any remodeling. The EPA didn't take into account lifestyle choices that contribute to the low IQ's and behavioral problems.

The RRP program does nothing to remove lead paint from houses that are being rehabbed. All it does is address lead dust that is created or lead dust that was present prior to remodeling or painting.

The RRP regs were for the most part written by college interns that had no real world knowledge of the industry they were writing regulations for.
To make the RRP program more appealing to the general public the US EPA put more emphasis on blood lead levels in rural white kids rather than focusing on the inner-city non-Hispanic blacks.

So what does the RRP actually do? It raises the cost for the consumer. The EPA says the RRP regs should raise the cost of installing replacement windows in a average home by $160. In reality, if a contractor were to follow the regulations to the letter the would cost an additional $2000 or more. Possibly MUCH more.

If you recall, back in the early 1980's the US EPA required tetraethyl lead stop being used in gasoline because of low IQ's in inner-city black children (EPA's terminology). Removing lead from gasoline was supposed to improve the low IQ problem, yet thirty years later the low IQ problem is worse. Thirty years from now we'll look bad and realize the US EPA RRP program didn't remedy the low IQ problem for two reasons. It does nothing to remove the root cause of the lead paint hazard in homes, and it doesn't address lifestyle issues that contribute to low IQ's and behavioral problems.

If the added costs to comply weren't enough the EPA included provisions to the RRP program for fines. Something as simple as a staple in the wrong place or a missing 2" piece of tape could cost the contractor $37500 for each infraction per day!

The EPA RRP regs also cause the contractors to walk a legal tightrope in an effort to comply with the RRP and not break OSHA regs and HIPPA regs as they apply to blood lead levels in workers. There's far more to it than I can get into here but the US EPA program creates a huge liability problem for contractors. Not so much in regards to their customers but in regards to their employees. That's why so many lawyers took the RRP training.

Then there are the EPA regs about concrete......
You can pour concrete on the ground but you can run the extra concrete in the chute on the ground. It was supposed to be about washing out a chute but like all things EPA.....if some regulations are good (which they can be), then more regulations must be better.

There was zero evidence connecting Mr. Reed to the explosion, nor that the nitrate was detonated by any sort of explosive device. And even if he was responsible, that doesn't excuse the plant owners from their actions.

I wonder if any of those 12 volunteer firemen who perished in the explosion knew the amount of ammonium nitrate stored at the plant was a couple of orders of magnitude greater than what was detonated in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Now you're just making stuff up. The city was incorporated in 1890. And it doesn't take much imagination to figure out why they built the plant there: they could use an existing railroad siding. It would have been prohibitive to build a new siding. I don't doubt that new construction was built after the plant, but they could have preemptively purchased all the surrounding property to prevent that.

If I crash a plane into a house at the end of a runway, my insurance company doesn't get to use the excuse that the airport was built first as a defense against my lousy piloting. You are held responsible for your own negligence.

Let me understand this. You see no evidence that a man.

That was fired from the local VFD.
That made the statement at the local bakery. That things are going to change today.
Was seen leaving the plant minutes before the explosion.
That went around town. Saying his brother was killed at the plant. A lie.
That went around trying to be a hero.
That was found to have pipe bombs in his truck and his house.
That told his friends. They might want to get out of town.
So you don't find that odd.
Sorry but I disagree.And as I said 300 tons is nothing. I have seen a hundred tons leave in one day.

(quoted from post at 03:56:33 01/14/14) I keep hearing that the EPA has gone wild and is now harassing legitimate/honest folks out of business...Just seems at odds with the EPA harassment argument I hear so frequently.

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All I can say Edd is if the day comes where you, someone you know, or someone in the same business/industry you're in gets caught up in a giant game of Government-Gotcha!, you may at least understand why those who wish to limit the power of unelected, mostly unchecked branches of government that have just about zero public accountability stand on the side of the fence they do.

Ever see an instance where "violations" were found by an inspector where no violations existed? I have. One regulatory agency (at least at the time) required paperwork to be signed based on the inspector's notes before the inspector left the "field", but the paperwork was finalized during the inspector's "office hours". "Violations" in the completed report did not match actual conditions and activities. Failure to sign would result in an immediate compliance issue. Good luck fighting back after they get a signature. Best wishes in even having the opportunity to speak with someone higher up on the regulatory chain of command, too.

Ever been in a line of work that was regulated by an agency when that agency looses a courtroom battle because they were wrongly enforcing improper statutes upon those being regulated? I have. Ever see that agency then tweak their rules after that defeat to creatively enforce those statutes in a different fashion so they likely wouldn't lose in a courtroom again, instead of abandoning those regs they were found to be wrong about enforcing? I have. How about then dealing with additional regulations put forth by the agency to show those who are being regulated what happens when you take on those in power? I have.

Ever hear of an instance where filing the appropriate "Green Copy" to the proper person would make an issue pertaining to regulatory compliance disappear? I have. An employee of a now defunct trucking company told me that management made some issues go away by inserting the proper figure in cash form into an envelope as per the request of an inspector more than once.

Ever hear of instances where a state and a federal regulatory agency get into a whizzin' contest as to who is in charge of regulating something? I have. This state-federal infighting ended up basically crucifying a guy over what should have been a minor infraction. After the feds raided the property, only a plea deal kept the guy out of prison, but he's a now a felon until he takes his final breath and his wallet is much emptier now from the experience. Others in the same line of work have said they have no real clue where they stand with either agency.

Ever hear of an instance where a regulatory agency absolutely refuses to answer any and all questions from an elected official about issues pertaining to regulations enforced upon those and events taking place inside that official's constituency after someone gets raided by a regulatory agency? I have. The agency actually wouldn't even confirm or deny a raid even happened or an investigation was taking place. The whussy politician should have called the agency heads and investigators to testify over the event and actions pertaining to it, but he probably had important fundraisers to attend and lobbyists to meet with.

EPA geniuses even wanted a local grain elevator to add mineral oil to their grains to keep dust down.

This is all a drop in the bucket. Expanding on the above would fill 5 pages here and I bet I could fill 10 more.

AG

BINGO!!!

Politicians write laws that mandate, and when their mandates cause disasters, they hand low information Polly a cracker and send Polly out to...

Mark

By all accounts, Bryce Reed is a despicable human being and certainly deserves to be where he is, which is in prison. That said, federal, state and local law enforcement investigated this walking t*rd and found no connection between him and the West fertilizer plant explosion. The statements you make may or may not be true; I can find no corroboration of most of them in the various news articles.

But that is all besides the point. West Fertilizer had custody of enough explosive material to level the town of West. While it was in their custody, enough of it exploded that the town was pretty much destroyed. If West Fertilizer had been more diligent, maybe it wouldn't have blown, or at least would have done less damage to the town. At the least, they could have purchased enough liability insurance to cover damages for such an explosion; a million bucks doesn't go very far these days.

I get my information from some of the folks in town. I stop in that town when I am over that way. Very good food.

They know he did it. But as you say. They can't prove it.I just hope in stays in prison.

If you make to west some day. Be ready to eat and take a nap.