OT geothermal problems

Bradiniowa · Dec 21, 2013

Been heating for a year now with geothermal in a new house. Ours is a little different than most around here. We heat the whole house with radiant heat and only have forced air in the second stage. Our bathroom is the problem. It is a zone by it's self with the idea of being able to keep it warmer than the rest of the house. Problem is it runs nearly 24/7 rarely getting up to temperature (71). We had similar set up in our old home with wood heated boiler. Worked great but big difference is water temperature. Wood heat at 160, geo at 115. Contractor is at a loss of ideas to fix it. Question is what temperature is your water in the Geo system?

notjustair · Dec 21, 2013

We had it growing up. The problem is you don't have hot heat like you do with wood or gas. What you have seems about right depending on the outside temp. When it gets down so cold your second stage will kick in but it will run that first stage a good portion of the time. It's just like our air to air heat pump we have now. It's good as long as you don't expect a hot blast out of the vents.

There are winter days when the heat pump runs the majority of the day. Second and third stage come on as needed. That's just the way it is in a 100 year old house.

With geo I would have probably put more loops in that bathroom.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 21, 2013

Location in the house? Does it have forced air as well, and how are you heating the air in your forced air plenum: with a water coil or a refrigerant coil?if you really have 115 degree water, and it"s really circulating you may not have enough radiant surface to keep your bathroom warm, especially with water that cool. If you don"t have a floor temperature system, shoot the floor with an infrared thermometer and see what the temperature is. If it's not 90+ when the thermostat is calling, I think you're probably SOL. Finally, how is it zoned? If it"s got its own zone valve and pump, check amp draw on the pump,to make sure it's actually moving water. Also, check supply and return water temperatures from that zone to make sure there's heat transfer. May need to adjust circuit setter to modify water flow.

buickanddeere · Dec 21, 2013

Water temp too low and not enough flow. System was designed for boiler and not a geothermal.

Eldon (WA) · Dec 21, 2013

When I built my house I added 220V electric thermostatically controlled, variable output in-wall heaters in the bathrooms. Since you always like a nice warm bathroom while in your nakedness, they work great. I can warm up a bathroom in minutes without cranking up the heat in the whole house. I also put in a gas fireplace in the living/dining/kitchen area and can shut off the other rooms and set the thermostat at 68. Very comfortable. I was talked into a heatpump, but found out right away it was more efficient to use my 80% gas backup furnace instead. Fortunately I had that installed in order to direct vent my 2 gas water heaters so that they will still work if the power goes out. I am on rural water and natural gas, so pretty easy to get by on a small generator. I use one water heater tank just to warm the water before it is fed into the lit one. Heatpump only serves as an expensive AC in the summer, now. This system works great, very rare for the farm and 3000 sq ft house to have a gas/electric bill over $200 a month during the winter.

MSD · Dec 21, 2013

If you have a true Geo Thermal unit, with ground loops or wells it has one compressor. That one runs when the thermostat calls for heat. How is it that your bathroom is zoned seperate and runs 24/7? The unit's I've put in we have plumbed them in to the hot water heater and after the water circulates past the compressor unit it comes out 120 degrees.

Ray · Dec 21, 2013

We heat our 1800 square ft house with geo,with a fuel oil backup.Been 5 years now of cold ohio
weather and have never used the fuel oil yet.Ours uses well water at 50 degrees.The geo puts out 98 degree air at the vents.Bathrooms are a confined space without much air circulation which makes them cooler than the rest of the house.The same way with fuel oil.An electric 220 heater works great for showers and baths,otherwise it's plenty warm for regular use.We have a 3.5 ton scroll unit.

Bradiniowa · Dec 21, 2013

Ours has a water heater for storage only. The compressor maintains it at 115 degrees. There are actually three pumps pulling off from it. One for basement, one for the upstairs, and the one for the bathroom. I would like to hear more about the 220 volt heaters. What's good out there?

Adirondack case guy · Dec 21, 2013

Simple, you don't have enough tubing (dispursian area) in the bathroom floor to maintain the temp that you desire.
Loren, the Acg.

Eldon (WA) · Dec 21, 2013

There are all kinds of wall units out there, just do a google search. Mine are Cadets that I bought at Home Depot. Mine sit right in between the studs, so you need to have a wall without plumbing if you go with the flush mount. Sounds like a simple solution to a nagging problem.

Janicholson · Dec 21, 2013

The bathroom circulation pump might not be moving enough fluid. It could be either a restriction in the tubing, or the pump was mismatched to that branch. I wonder if you could put a flow meter in the circuit to assure it is getting full intended volume. Jim

Adirondack case guy · Dec 21, 2013

Sorry for the typo. You need more feet of tubing /sq foot of floor space with low temp heating systems than you do with conventional heating systems that run at 160F-180F.
Loren, the Acg.

Greg K · Dec 21, 2013

Since you're thinking about electrical supplemental heat you may also want to look at the heat/vent lights. They have a built in heater, exhaust fan, and usually light and night light. They do take their own 20 amp 120 volt circuit. Not knowing the layout of your house it may or may not be an option.
Sorry to hear the radiant heat is not keeping you happy, I really like that kind of heat.

Ken Macfarlane · Dec 22, 2013

Have you checked the temp drop in the loop, the flow rate, the tube spacing? With low temps of geothermal you need close spaced tubes.

If you have huge temp drops you need to see if the flow is too low due to bad pump or air lock etc.

Mike (WA) · Dec 22, 2013

I'll second the Cadet-type heater idea, for your situation- a small space that you want additional heat on an occasional basis- They'll heat a small room almost instantly, then just turn off when you leave. Even better, use a timer switch, so you don't forget and leave it on.

Geo-TH,In · Dec 22, 2013

Brad,
Many times with forced air you forget to put an air return in a room, close door and can't figure out what's wrong. Try leaving the door open and see what happens.

Heat pumps are a cold heat source, Expensive to install and have a very short life expendency. That's why I don't have one. I still like forced air for air conditioning.

I like electric baseboard heat. I can set any room at desired temp. Yes it's more expensive to operate, but way cheaper to install and no expense to maintain, low tech. Do the math, over the life of a heat pump, I come out on top.

George

Brad Bergan · Dec 22, 2013

Several of you commented on tube spacing. What would be "normal spacing"? I can tell you the whole house is spaced the same and the rest of house heats with know problem. Can flow rate be too fast? That is latest attempt by the contractor, slow flow with ball valve to allow more time to radiate.

Janicholson · Dec 22, 2013

That is an indication of the capacity of the installer. No way. A simple way to look at it is "Delta T", if the temperature in the tubes is lower (slowing it down to get more heat out of it) the Net result is less heat transfer. Jim

TomH in PA · Dec 22, 2013

I looked into geothermal and concluded it really only works well for radiant floor. The heat pump can only boost the temperature by about 50F, so hot air or radiators just won"t deliver enough heat.

I"d consider a baseboard electric heater, we have one in the bathroom on the north side of the house and it has no trouble keeping it warm. A programmable thermostat would hold the electric bill down.

Ray · Dec 22, 2013

Don't know how you concluded that.Geo beats about everything going.We can heat our intire 1800 square foot house for a couple hundred a year.
Thousands of home here in ohio have geo as there only source of heat.It's by far the more effeicent than gas and a lot cheaper.You guys are missing the boat.

8Nr--WI · Dec 22, 2013

Ray----my friend says he loves his geo, but his electric bills went thru the roof after he had the system installed.....did you experience the same?

Thanks,

Tim

Rick Kr · Dec 22, 2013

Brad can't answer what is wrong with your system mine is all forced air.

I am confused by some of the comments that say geothermal doesn't work. I have had a ground source closed loop 6 ton unit for the last 10 hears with abslutely no problems. All forced air for the heat and AC no radiant lines under the floor.

My cost to heat is half of what my neighbors with forced air propane furnaces pay and I have twice the square footage.

I am in mid-Michigan in open fields and lots of wind. I see lots of cold temps here in Jan and Feb.

Rick

8Nr--WI · Dec 22, 2013

Rick---did your electric bills increase a lot when using the geo system? My friend seems to think the electrical components run more with his geo system......low/no propane use but higher electric costs.

Thanks, Tim

welled · Dec 22, 2013

Been looking at the responses to your post and have to add my experience. Sorry for the length. We have used Geothermal for 13 years in our home in north central Minnesota. We heat and cool about 4800 square feet plus keep our garage at about 45 degrees all winter. We do have a propane backup, but have not fired it in the last 10 years. We heat and cool with Geothermal only. In 2012 out total energy cost for heating and cooling was $550.00 or about $45 a month. I do have the heat pump metered separately to accurately track costs and most years our costs are between $400 and $500. We use a combination of radiant floor heat and forced air.
115 degree water temp is normal. We did modify the system to have the bathroom heated any time any other zone is calling for heat and our installer did add additional capacity for the bathroom. We did the same thing for the entry door floor. Boots are always nice and warm. I have to clarify that our house was designed and constructed for energy efficiency. Payback for the additional costs was about 4 years.

Regarding your questions, I would go back to your installer. I am not sure what is happening, but something is clearly wrong. Geothermal IMHO is the only way to heat and cool.

Rick Kr · Dec 22, 2013

Tim
I put the geothermal in when I built so never had a comparison with propane heat.

On the coldest months my electric bill will be around $300. My electric provider gives you an overall discount rate and one meter. DTE gives geothermal users 2 meters one for the geothermal at a cheap rate. Then the other the rest of your house is wired to. This meter is at the standard rate.

Rick

8Nr--WI · Dec 23, 2013

Thanks for your response Rick.....he had his GEO put in when the house was built, moved in less than a year ago, and his electric bill last Feb. was just under $300....he only has single meter.

Other than the perceived "high" electric bill for 2 people, they believe the GEO is the only way to go....3300 sq. ft. house. The water heater is plumbed into the geo as well.

It is a closed end loop system.

Tim

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