ot. need opinions

About 2 years ago I quit my job and started my own
electrical contracting business. Approximately 2
months ago I received a call from small time local
farmer about a grain bin he was renting. The problem
was that after an hour or so of running the drying
fan would kick out the 125A main breaker on the
panel. It did not kick out the 80A breaker that fed
just the dryer fan.
I did not really have time to look at it but since
he had wet corn in the bin I decided to make time.
The first time I stopped was the night he called me
about 7:00 in the middle of a snowstorm. The fan
would not kick out the breaker while I was there and
the farmer did not want to suck a lot of snow into
the bin. Two days later I stopped on my way through
to look at another job and while there I bypassed
the starter and started the fan off of the breaker
only, then I went and looked at the other job. That
took about an hour and when I got there the breaker
was tripped. I could not find anything suspicious so
I restarted it and waited for about 15 minutes,
whereupon I went to the bar for a drink. When I
returned the fan was still running. 20 minutes later
, with it still running I went home.
Fast forward a couple weeks , the farmer calls and
says the fan quit again. It had been running fine
until he shut it off because of moisture and the
problem was back. I checked the capacitors,
amperage, connections, anything I could think of.
The next day I called an electrician I used to work
with for advice. His opinion was that the motor was
going bad, but without a megger there was no way of
knowing.
At this point I told the renter everything I had
found out. I also told him that at this point I was
too busy to keep messing with it since I had several
larger projects ready for me.
Today the bin owner called NOT HAPPY! It had been
agreed that I bill the owner, but before I did
anything expensive I was to consult him first. I
sent him a bill for $90 to cover all my trips and
time. He was upset be cause I had never fixed
anything. A new breaker would cost $180 at my cost
and I don't know what a new motor cost is.
My question is did I wrongfully charge him? I can
see his point, but him being a contractor also I
wonder if I was that out of line. I did offer to
settle with him but that got no response, he just
kept saying " I'll pay it but I'm NOT HAPPY". So
he's not being outrageous. Do I return his check
when I get it? What do you think?

As a businessman , you can't pay your bills by being sweet & forgiving for time & trip expenses you spent on the job . I spent 25+ yrs as a general contractor -mostly electrical work . And I know all the scams property owners or renters can try pulling to get free services . Does a doctor charge you for spending his time examining you even after he learns that your problem isn't known for certain or else you can't or won't have further procedures done to try curing your problems . Doctors don't guarantee success in their treatments on you so why feel you should guarantee a cure for their problem when they refuse to invest money trying to solve their problem . Or you should donate your time , wear& tear of your work truck , plus gas , oil , & business insurances . Oh & don't forget your half million dollar Bond Ins . At least that's what I got hit with while in business for myself . Bill them & keep that money . HTH ! God bless , Ken

Being an electrical and hvac contractor also I have been caught in the same situation a couple of times. If I couldn't fix the problem I had a hard time billing people even though I made several trips. Its hard to give away money but at the same time he can bad mouth you enough that it would cost you a lot more. I would return the check and take one more quick look at it and you might luck out and find the problem. Than you can charge him and maybe both will be happy. If you can't fix it "tell him he to get someone else to fix it.

Greg About the same thing, we get a tractor in the shop weak hydraulics, takes hour and half to warm it up , test the pump and check it out. Tell the customer he needs a $ 1200 hydraulic pump he says no I am not going to spend that on an old tractor. Then try and get him to pay the $ 120.00 bucks it took for us to tell him that. Just about a no win situation. In your case you want to be fair but chances are probably not going to get much work from that guy going forward, probably just keep the money and remember next time he calls.

I don't think you are out of line. They basically asked you to troubleshoot the problem.
Which you did.
Anymore, $90 is not very much money. If you had made repairs that did not solve the problem, and billed them for those parts/labor, it would be a different story. You can't just be going out spending time offering free advice.

Ben

You could have charged him a hundred and eighty for a new breaker. Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope.

you should have dealt/billed the farmer; he was the one that hired you.

Let him fight it out with the owner/contractor/whatever.

Allan

Maybe a better solution would have been up front with both the owner and renter. One call to check everything I could check, on me if I don't fix it. If I don't find a problem you will be billed at my full rate for future calls. Maybe still give them a break if you can't fix the problem, but still get enough to cover expenses for future calls. That way everyone knows what to expect up front.

Assuming you know your stuff and are good at what you do, your invoice should read as follows:
Service call to site as per customer request.
Monitored equipment.
Customer unable to replicate fault during testing period.
Basic systems checks preformed all values within paramaters.
Options for customer are:
1- Wait until problem progresses to the point that faulty component can be identified.
2-Agree to lengthley/costly monitoring to isolate problem.
3-Replace with new equipment with warranty that will cover any faults as long as they are not caused by improper usage or installation of what the equipment was designed to do.

I have about forty years on generators and control systems. Problems like that can be hard to find. I think you did the right thing. He asked you to look at it which you did. You can't sit around all day waiting for something that might happen. In my business 90 dollars wouldn't even get a service truck out of the yard.

If I couldnt figure something out I would gladly pay you $90 to run out to my farm a couple times to help determine the problem.

Right on, Billy. The OP did everything he could do short of replacing the motor and starting components, and there is absolutely no reason for him to settle for less than the value of his time.

To the OP, remember, they called you. As for the likelihood that the bin owner will bad mouth you, I'll bet the donut against the hole this isn't the first time he's pulled this "Not happy" trick. If he does it to every service provider and half of them write down their bill, he can afford a lot of phone calls.

Bottom line, don't be afraid of getting paid. Personally, I'd say he's getting a bargain @$90 for three trips and probably three hours of time.

I had a unexplainable breaker trip once, when I went to change it one of the clamping screws was loose. there was not enough contact paste on the aluminum wire and it had corroded.

This kind of sounds like one of my neighbors. I like to go and cut wood with him out back of his place. I have big 4hp saws and up. I also help him split fire wood just for something to do. NEVER have I asked for gas money etc. He thanks me but I like being on good terms with as many neighbors as possible. Now he knows I have the small gas filters for lawn tractors and fuel mix for two cycle. He says we "SHARE" so he thinks I should give him a bottle or filter here and there! Every ONCE in awhile I will borrow a large socket or wrench from him.
You keep the money there are toooo many cheeepos out there. My neighbor is a nice guy but I am careful not to tip my hand about what I have.
It can be a pain.Jeffcat

I get calls from several local horse farms for service calls. I'm not in the repair business but they are existing hay clients. It adds up to 10 or more hours a week sometimes.

Service call 50.00 including the first hour and 33.75 an hour for time billing in 1 hour increments.

It sounds like he's not interested in paying for diagnostic work and it sounds cheap to me for even a single visit. My HVAC guy charges 150 bucks to drive over here.

$90 divided by the time you put in is not a high hourly rate. I'd keep the money to pay for your time.

Most car dealers charge that much to hook a car to a computer for diagnosis.

I get in the same boat on service work, it is a no win unless you can find a problem. I usually wait to bill until I can find a problem then bill the whole thing and the customer is happy. I will otherwise end up with unhappy customer that will complain to others about my work.

My response is:
Use this situation to realize you have to be very clear with potential customers up front. I know it's awkward to talk about money, but it comes with the territory.
Use this to decide what your policy is, and tell people.

When someone calls, at some point in the conversation, you need to say something like:
"Sometimes problems are difficult to figure out, and it takes several trips.
Sometimes people choose wait to fix the problem, or decide that additional troubleshooting is not worth it, or whatever.
I just need to be clear with you upfront (or however you want to say it) that my charges are $50 an hour, including any troubleshooting that I do. Travel time is $20 per trip. If you decide to not fix the problem, for now, I still need to charge for my time."

Or however you decide to charge, whatever your charges are, you just have to let people know what your charges are upfront. It's only fair to them, let's you get paid and not feel bad about it, and prevents misunderstandings and hard feelings later.

I would have told him I was going to replace the 125 amp breaker. Got his approval to do that and moved on. More than likely that was the problem. If the motor was tripping the 125 and not the 50. Breakers get weak over time.

Correction 80 amp breaker.

IMHO, by your own admission you could not solve the problem and therefore you should not have charged him until the problem was fixed unless both the farmer and you had a previous agreement that you would take a look and charge what you did. The reason experts are called in to solve problems is that they are supposed to have the training and or experience to do the analysis and then also make the repair. Russ from MN hit the nail on the head with the loose connection.

Hospitals and doctors have NO PROBLEM charging HIGH rates for not fixing anything.
Why is it OK for them to do it and not anyone else ?

Poor communication. You should have told those involved up front that you charge for your diagnostic time whether or not you could find the problem.
I do know contractors that won't charge if they can't pinpoint the problem, but I wouldn't blame them if they did.....if they throw in the towel in a reasonable time.

You need to learn to say no to people if you don't have time to do the work. I struggle with that sometimes myself and try to squeeze a small job in sometimes.

One other thing. Never go on a job after going to the bar (or drinking at home).

Thanks for the thoughts. I realized rather suddenly that I should have explained my situation better to the owner/renter. As far as losing a customer, well the owner would have never hired me anyway so I didn't lose one. On the other hand I don't need the bad advertising that I will get from him. As far as not accepting the job if I don't have time, well I could make time when I was initially there, however by the time the problem resurfaced I was just too busy so I recommended another electrician who I knew the owner would approve of. In that respect I tried to do what was right.
I personally don't like leaving a job if its not done and I sure didn't like charging him for it either. My main thought was to find out what I need to do better next time. I also realize you will never make everyone happy, so just trying to decide where to cut my losses.
Thanks again.

Forgot to mention, the 125 A breaker was obviously much newer than the rest of the breakers which indicates to me that there was a problem several years ago and the new breaker maybe didn't fix it. Time will tell since the owner hired someone else who is starting at replacing the breaker.

Agree with others that the best time to have the conversation about your fees is BEFORE you do the work and send a bill.

But also, it sounds like you closed badly too.

It's a subtle thing, but telling him you're too busy to keep "messing" with it was probably the wrong thing to say. It implies your guessing has no value - a common mistake people make when billing for their time.

To his ears, what you said is "I don't have enough experience to do this, but I'd like to be paid like somebody who does, so here's my bill for trying".

(not a knock against you - just putting it in perspective)

It may have been better to lay out an action plan for him - of what you've done, and the next steps to try.

Diagnosing intermittent problems can be very difficult. It often involves guesses, and replacing parts that may actually be good.

What you get paid for is making the EDUCATED guesses - and avoiding the wasteful shots in the dark.

You should have laid out a plan of action:
1.) check X
2.) check Y
3.) replace breaker 1
4.) replace breaker 2
5.) replace fan motor
6.) replace wiring

If you feel you're too busy to complete those final steps, you could explain that, and still bill him for the steps 1 and 2 that you've completed, and leave him with an action plan on what to do next.

Then it'd be clear to him that he at least got SOMETHING for his money, if not a fix.

Granted, another electrician would probably have to start from square one anyways, but it's mostly about perception with your customer.

OR --- if you really DON'T have any idea of what to do next - never be afraid to admit that, but you can't bill him for not knowing - you're in the fixing business, not the visiting business.

I have had the same service call.....PIA!!!

It is probably the motor, but it will need removed and taken to a shop. What size motor is it? I assume single phase? often repairs on single phase motors (beyond capacitors, centtrifigual switch, bearings) will rival the cost of a new motor...especially if you have issues getting the fan blade off the motor to have it repaired!

Is the 125A breaker feeding anything else besides the fan?

Best to return the check and write off your time and driving expense. Remember "Bad news travels farther and faster than good news"

Also, I have never charged for something I didn't fix. Service work is a bear sometimes. I have often not charged full price on a service call ticket due to a learning experience.....if it was something that I thought I should have picked up on sooner....with that said....you cant pay bills on learning experiences....Service work in grain handling equipment is something you can make money on if you can fix it the first time....

You're lucky to even get an electrician to even come out for under $100.00 around here for the first hour. Any parts are additional. Hal

I am self employed in the service industry as well. My policy is I dont charge anything if I dont fix anything. Up front, this seems like it costs you money and time, and it does sometimes. But , it avoids alot of worries and problems on the "backside". Customers love this policy of course, and they tend to feel apreciative and even obligated to you somewhat. Plus, you dont have to worry about that phone call saying " You just fixed it and now its not working again, and I paid you to fix it ". At that point its a problem and will be difficult to bill them again for the final repair. Its not really fair, but it goes with the territory.

I don"t see any mention of Meggering the motor then taking start and running amps. Not to slam your work but you have to own the tools of the trade and use them.
How much current was being drawn by the rest of the loads?
As previously stated communication up front is vital .

If your work is faulty you can be forgiven, if your work is late you may be forgiven, but if you don't care you won't be forgiven. The problem still exists and you have now told them that you're "washing you hands of the problem". I'm a general contractor and in 1985 one of our customers called with a roof leak on a building we had just completed. Called the roofer and he sent me a bill for $75.00 noting it was a sheet metal problem - didn't fix it. I didn't pay the bill but the roofer called and said he would file a lien if I didn't pay. Sent him a check and told him to enjoy it as it would be the last dollar he would ever see from us. I would have used him for every building we've done over the last almost 30 years and an average of about 100,000 s.f. of roofs per year.

Once you agree to fix a problem, you've bought the problem. Best not to start something you either don't want to (or can't) finish.