I'm a rookie with some new ground to break in the spring. How common is this: Implement being pulled with a draw-bar snags on something solid, tires keep their bite and the engine doesn't stall so the tractor flips over backwards. Outside of keeping my foot on the clutch pedal, what can be done to minimize this? Can a three point prevent this?
- Thread starter CGID
- Start date
Can"t happen. When the drawbar goes down as the front goes up it will pull the front back down after getting so far.
The 3 point can float up so it would be more possible to go over backward hooked to the 3 point.
The quikest way to go over backwards is hooked to the axle with a log chain. Then the wheels could rotate the tractor over backwards and it has happened.
Gary
The 3 point can float up so it would be more possible to go over backward hooked to the 3 point.
The quikest way to go over backwards is hooked to the axle with a log chain. Then the wheels could rotate the tractor over backwards and it has happened.
Gary
rustred
Well-known Member
that would be about as common as me trying to win the lottery, it just aint happening.
what tractor and implements you referring to?
have heard the little 8n fords could do this but have a hard time to believe it. those little buggars just would either spin or stall.
just as in tractor pulling, reduce your engine rpm if front tires getting too high. its not like you are hooked to a solid object like a tree.
what tractor and implements you referring to?
have heard the little 8n fords could do this but have a hard time to believe it. those little buggars just would either spin or stall.
just as in tractor pulling, reduce your engine rpm if front tires getting too high. its not like you are hooked to a solid object like a tree.
BAnNC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Western North Carolina
I have known 2 personally that have had that happen to them. Neither is here now to write a rebuttal. Both pulling logs behind tractor, snagged root or just had too much weight behind. Tractor went over backwards on TOP of Driver.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
The most common flips are side ways due to being on a hill or other such thing like running at high speed and turning hard. This picture shows a low sitting tractor that ran along a hill side and if the guy had not hit the tree would have rolled over
Were they hooked on the drawbar. Or were they hooked to axle or somewhere higher than the drawbar. A side flip would be more likely to happen.
I can't see how that could happen given the physics of it.
No tractor in tractor pulling has gone over backwards because the hitch can only be so high and has to be so many inches behind the axle to pull the front back down after it raises to a certain point.
Gary
I can't see how that could happen given the physics of it.
No tractor in tractor pulling has gone over backwards because the hitch can only be so high and has to be so many inches behind the axle to pull the front back down after it raises to a certain point.
Gary
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Pulling things with a fixed drawbar (original) will almost always stop going up before total flip. a fast hitch farmall with a implement attached can't go over due to the rigidity of the connection. a properly attached 3 point system is also pretty imune from flipping. Most have the lift arms farther rearward than the wheel diameter, and limit upward travel physically. Unless the top link is a chain it too prevents flipping.
There were tractors that were considered "Killers". They were eventually fixed with fenders that acted like wheelie bars. Fordson was one of the most villified. Any high attachment to the tractor near the axle front to back, and high from the ground (especially at or above the axle is very problematic.
If you attach to a standard drawbar, and use it as designed there is no worry of that happening.
I have been pulling as hard as the tractor can make power, and had the plow catch rocks and roots that stopped it cold. It can get the front up, but it is controllable.
first time operators should be driving doing light load operations and practice enough control movement and pedal operations that it is instinctive to get it stopped. You will find your clutch foot hovering near pedal contact for the first 50 hours of operation no matter what. as the tractor begins to bog, you will touch the pedal (but not push on it) in anticipation of such a move. Jim
There were tractors that were considered "Killers". They were eventually fixed with fenders that acted like wheelie bars. Fordson was one of the most villified. Any high attachment to the tractor near the axle front to back, and high from the ground (especially at or above the axle is very problematic.
If you attach to a standard drawbar, and use it as designed there is no worry of that happening.
I have been pulling as hard as the tractor can make power, and had the plow catch rocks and roots that stopped it cold. It can get the front up, but it is controllable.
first time operators should be driving doing light load operations and practice enough control movement and pedal operations that it is instinctive to get it stopped. You will find your clutch foot hovering near pedal contact for the first 50 hours of operation no matter what. as the tractor begins to bog, you will touch the pedal (but not push on it) in anticipation of such a move. Jim
BAnNC
Well-known Member
- Location
- Western North Carolina
IaGary,
The only one I'm sure about had the chain hooked around the drawbar on the the lift. Lift was raised some to add weight to rear end for better traction and to keep the end of log from dragging on ground. Didn't help, going up hill, hit a dip in the ground, log stuck, tractor went up and over. Found him the next day.
The only one I'm sure about had the chain hooked around the drawbar on the the lift. Lift was raised some to add weight to rear end for better traction and to keep the end of log from dragging on ground. Didn't help, going up hill, hit a dip in the ground, log stuck, tractor went up and over. Found him the next day.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Any attachment above ground and in front of the tire circumference that has flex in it can lift the front from the tire contact patch trying to drive out from under the pulling force. It is all just climbing the ring gear 9or bull gear).
Dragsters do it with nothing but inertia. Jim
Dragsters do it with nothing but inertia. Jim
Make sure the plow you get has trip standards, that release when you snag something. I have a John Deere 812 2-bottom, and it snags and trips every so often, I just stop, back up, that bottom swings down and resets, and off I go. Very safe. VERY good idea. The cheap rigid plows you see at Farm and Home places ---- don"t get them.
Hooking to the factor designed drawbar is the safest place to pull from. Hiking up the drawbar or hooking above the drawbar is where you get in trouble. There is a lot more to think about keeping yourself safe than flipping over backwards. Unless you do something dumb it (AINT) gonna happen!
showcrop
Well-known Member
I know a guy who goes to some of the pulls that I go to who flipped his 8N right over backwards last year. He was a beginner with the front too light, and his tires got a good bite on something. Guys who saw it said that his steering wheel landed on the stoneboat and the driver managed to swing to the side and not get pinned. Another time I was right there when a guy went about straight up on a 560. A picture was taken showing a six foot tall fellow standing there for comparison. This was an experienced puller with a tendency to be light on the front, his tires suddenly caught and the tractor went up instantly, bending the two hitch supports into pretzels. The clutch is somewhat harder to push in when sliding backwards off the seat.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
What Make/model tractor are you using? No brand loyalty being expressed here, some older tractors are more prone to wheelies than others. If you post with what you have others will comment with their experiences.
The Fordson backflips were, in many cases, caused by farmers getting them stuck and chaining a small log to the rear wheel(s) and attempting to drive out. Given the worm gear drive and low gear and light front end, the tractor would worm itself up and over. Rather quickly. My uncle's backflip was an exception and if the silo hadn't been in the way it never would have happened.
The axle is the center pivot, right?
The drawbar is below and behind the axle.
For the front to go up the drawbar has to go down. After going down to below a straight line of pull with the implement being pulled the drawbar is started to pull back up in relation to the axle and the front end. When the drawbar is pulled back up the front goes down.
If the drawbar did not pull back up every tractor would always go over backward once the front started up.
As far as the guy with the 8N that was pulling I bet he was pulling off the 3 pt and there is no down pressure on the drawbar and it can come up instead of pushing the front back down. Once the front gets over 90 degrees straight up the tractor can come on over.
But on a tractor with a fixed drawbar that cannot go up or down a tractor cannot go on over backwards or it would happen all the time in pulling contest.
Gary
The drawbar is below and behind the axle.
For the front to go up the drawbar has to go down. After going down to below a straight line of pull with the implement being pulled the drawbar is started to pull back up in relation to the axle and the front end. When the drawbar is pulled back up the front goes down.
If the drawbar did not pull back up every tractor would always go over backward once the front started up.
As far as the guy with the 8N that was pulling I bet he was pulling off the 3 pt and there is no down pressure on the drawbar and it can come up instead of pushing the front back down. Once the front gets over 90 degrees straight up the tractor can come on over.
But on a tractor with a fixed drawbar that cannot go up or down a tractor cannot go on over backwards or it would happen all the time in pulling contest.
Gary
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I know a guy that flipped an AC 45 backwards. He was pulling something with a chain. Not sure how easy it would be to do pulling a 3 pt plow.
As a kid I flipped an IH H with front loader. I was loading logs on truck. Center of gravity was too high and log was too big.
Need to be careful not to flip a tractor with a tricycle front end on unlevel ground.
I have to take precautions not to flip backhoe when climbing too steep incline. I have ROP and seat belt. You still get a little pucker when the front end comes up on you.
George
As a kid I flipped an IH H with front loader. I was loading logs on truck. Center of gravity was too high and log was too big.
Need to be careful not to flip a tractor with a tricycle front end on unlevel ground.
I have to take precautions not to flip backhoe when climbing too steep incline. I have ROP and seat belt. You still get a little pucker when the front end comes up on you.
George
If you are really scared about this happening, install a mercury switch in series with the hot wire to the coil. Mount it solidly so that if the tractor rears up to an angle that you will not like, it will shut the engine off. If you have a diesel with an electric fuel shutdown, you could use it on that too. If a diesel with a manual shutdown, can't use it.
If the tractor shuts down with the mercury switch, push in the clutch immediately, or you will get a bucking bronco effect.
If the tractor shuts down with the mercury switch, push in the clutch immediately, or you will get a bucking bronco effect.
NoNewParts
Member
pulling from the under belly drawbar, it's not likely for the reasons stated.
a 3-point IMPLEMENT engaged with the ground, also not likely.
those drawbars made to go on the 3-point are another thing.
not good in my opinion since the operator can raise the lift changing the pull geometry.
If you don't have a underbelly drawbar, add one.
I use little Fords a lot and they are light in the front. Under hard pulls/plows the front is in the air, but within limits
with all that said, a bad driver can still do it. a violent all at once pull that gets too much 'over' inertia going will actually make the rears leave the ground too and break any hook-up in the back=over
a 3-point IMPLEMENT engaged with the ground, also not likely.
those drawbars made to go on the 3-point are another thing.
not good in my opinion since the operator can raise the lift changing the pull geometry.
If you don't have a underbelly drawbar, add one.
I use little Fords a lot and they are light in the front. Under hard pulls/plows the front is in the air, but within limits
with all that said, a bad driver can still do it. a violent all at once pull that gets too much 'over' inertia going will actually make the rears leave the ground too and break any hook-up in the back=over
Which implement will you be using? Some implements are more prone to hard snagging than others. Most modern plows have trip or shearpin bottoms, older plows had breakaway hitches to reduce damage to the plow and to reduce the chance of backflips.
Most 3 point hitches do not have any down pressure and the lower arms don't extend far enough past the rear tires to prevent a back flip.
Extra front end weight and extending the drawbar as far out as possible will reduce the chance of back flips.
Today back flips are rare, but to say it is absolutely impossible to back flip a tractor when pulling from the drawbar is false security, especially when pulling uphill.
Most 3 point hitches do not have any down pressure and the lower arms don't extend far enough past the rear tires to prevent a back flip.
Extra front end weight and extending the drawbar as far out as possible will reduce the chance of back flips.
Today back flips are rare, but to say it is absolutely impossible to back flip a tractor when pulling from the drawbar is false security, especially when pulling uphill.
Thank you all for your responses. In about half an hour after I posted this question, 10 of you were on it trying to keep me out of trouble! If it matters, I've got a Farmall Super A and a IH A-193 single bottom plow. I'll follow up with a modern 6ft disk. I'll be in shallow, hard, dry clay not far above hard-pan. I know there are dumps of left over concrete from past construction, lots of sage brush roots and probably stumps/roots from black locust trees. It will be a small job. I want to make a fire-break along a fence line.
Out in low gear and idle engine with only enough RPM'S to pull it so if it hits anything taking mower power it will kill the engine. And the modern disk means a mounted type and they make the front end light, you would be better off looking for an old drag type disk that would not take weight off your front end. They were not made for a mounted type of disk and for that you would have to have an aftermarket 3 point hitch. and never pull off that hitch at any height. Use it only for something like a 3 point blade.
I didn't see any response to this part of your question. Don't ride around with your foot on the clutch pedal, if you do you will be replacing the clutch very soon. Sounds like you should omit the plow altogether and just go over the ground with the disk several times.
With the stuff you know/think may be in the ground maybe you should get someone in with a root rake on a dozer to make a pass or 2 over the area in question. The root rake should get anything out that will snag/hang up a plow.
I plow with a Ford 8N for food plots which often puts me in the woods. If I snag a rock or root one of 2 things happens. 1. IN heavy soil it kills the engine. 2. In lighter soil the rear tires just start digging a hole.
Oh and like the other poster said, don't ride the clutch.
Rick
I plow with a Ford 8N for food plots which often puts me in the woods. If I snag a rock or root one of 2 things happens. 1. IN heavy soil it kills the engine. 2. In lighter soil the rear tires just start digging a hole.
Oh and like the other poster said, don't ride the clutch.
Rick
Dieselbreath
Member
I bought my 1st farm from the widow of a man who was killed on his Ferguson 30 by going over backwards pulling a scraper from the 3 point. I got the tractor as part of the deal but was always leary of it. It would tend to want to go over backward very easy.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Gary, you are absolutely right about the geometry and the forces at play. However you are not recognizing the speed and momentum. When that 560 went up it went from the front being up one foot to six feet in a split second, with enough momentum to bend the supports. Before an N can hook to sled or stone boat, his draw bar has to be rigidly fixed, same as any other make of tractor. That rule is universal.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
All depend son the tractor, the setup, the implements and the land.
A Ford N series towing logs hitched to the top three point hitch pin is a recipe for flipping.
A Ford N series towing logs hitched to the top three point hitch pin is a recipe for flipping.
gene bender
Well-known Member
The SA and plow you have will not tip over if you hit something just dont go fast so you dont bust the plow
If that man had his 3 point fitted correctly with a rigid toplink then the built in safety mechanism would take all weight off the tractor wheels and let it spin rather than rearup. Even if not fitted correctly the scraper should have acted like wheelie bars and prevented the accident. But then we do not know the exact situation?
Sam
Sam
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Super A and a single bottom plow likely won't give you a problem. Single bottom, and most any small tractor, same thing. 2-3 bottoms, and jury-rigged attachment is the most likely recipe for disaster. See how easy that was, no insults, and I wasn't even tryin! Was gonna say that a super A ain't got enough power to pull a sick ho, off'n a pispot! Good thing I was in tactful mode, tonite!
gene bender
Well-known Member
Ya that mercury sw will stop the engine everytime the tractor hits a bump
Will Herring
Well-known Member
The only thing that I've ever had pick the front end of my tractor off the ground to any scary extent was when plowing. Raised the three bottom mounted plow up with the hydraulic lever and the front end of the tractor started to come up instead. It dropped back down faster than I could get my foot on the clutch or the hydraulic lever (but damn it was fast for as "slow" as I was going), but I would imagine it couldn't flip the tractor entirely over (unless on a hill and it shifted me sideways maybe) because you'd have to flip OVER the plow or shove it down into the ground really far.
Exactly. A lot of anecdotal evidence that makes no sense presented here. Just like anyone that ever used a buzz saw lost an arm, anyone using a stickler type splitter was killed, anyone using a radial arm saw tripped and cut their brains open, guns just go off for no reason and every single kids that ever had a bb gun put his eye out. Jeeze!
All the same - I keep my left foot poised over the clutch pedal in sketchy situations and the clutch is 1st in my mind when an 'OH, CRAP' moment :shock: comes along - 'Anything that can go wrong WILL go wrong' (don't know who said that but I took it to heart many moons ago and I'm stickin' to it!) :roll:
showcrop
Well-known Member
I was helping the neighbor farmer after my day job many years ago. When coming in from the field with a load of hay, behind the 841, the kid driving was descending a somewhat steep hill when suddenly he apparently had an "Oh crap moment" and pushed in the clutch. We all survived no significant damage, just reload half the load.
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