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O/T Timing belts anyone?

A

ASEguy

Well-known Member
Location
Festus MO
I did two timing belts yesterday. One on a Chrysler Pacifica with a 3.5 and the other on a Dodge Intrepid with it's younger brother 3.2. Customer A has a Pacifica that had 125,xxx miles and the owner was going on vacation 1,000 miles away in two weeks. He bought the timing kit per recommendation and the water pump was included. His water pump was seeping, his tensioner was leaking and his tensioner pulley had slop in the bearing. He did it at his convenience.
Customer B with the Intrepid called me to ask if I would look at his son's car that died at a stop light (I've heard this before). I took a scan tool with me just in case, and it had a code for "No cam signal at PCM". Not good because they both are interference engines after 2-3 teeth are skipped. His timing belt was melted to the seized waterpump pulley and his tensioner pulley disintegrated. I replaced the timing belt, tensioner, waterpump and tensioner pulley. I had a gut feeling on this one, so before I put the front of the engine together I cranked it over and confirmed no compression with a gauge. The car is 98 with 190,xxx miles and both heads have to come off to inspect for damage. The car is totaled due to the cost of the repair unless I do it. The owner of the Intrepid is a family friend.
When was the last time you changed your timing belt? Is your engine an interference engine?
 
I've read some time back that this is a chronic problem with those Chrysler model engines. Chrysler won't even stand behind them even if they are always serviced at a Chrysler dealer. They will even hold the mechanic at the dealership responsible, this is how bad those engines are. Jasper wants $5,000 for a rebuild.

I bought a beautiful Chrysler Sebring Convertable knowing the engine was bad. It ran but knocked. I read up on it before buying it. Knew I could part it out and get my money back. I bought the car for $150 and resold it for $300.
 
Late 80's buick v6 had bad timing chains. Sister had one fail and once chain was replaced confirmed a misfire from a bent valve. Lucky it was on the front side. Figured piston bent it I would use it to straighten it! TDC on that cylinder removed the spring used dial indicator as rotating stem found high spot then took bfh and a few whacks later valve was straight enough again to seal.
 
years ago I was working at a garage and the boss's son in law ask me to look at 2 cars one of which he was going to buy, one was a vega don't recall what the other was now,i explained to him that if the engine of a car had a rubber band for a cam drive to shut the hood and walk away,he bought the vega,some folks just can't comprehend how things work until it hits them in the pocket book then the poor mouthing starts
 
I've got a '99 Suzuki Swift (basically a Geo Metro clone) that has a timing belt and when it goes, the car goes to the scrap yard. Other than that car, I avoid timing belts for a reason. However, I will admit timing chains are not perfect and they will break also, especially the ones built in the 70s and 80s that had the plastic cam gears. Some vehicles also had the plastic tensioners that wore out early. And some people just think you can run those things forever without changing oil.
Speaking of your Chrysler products, about a year ago I saw a beautiful Chrysler sitting in a salvage yard and I couldn't figure out why anybody would scrap it...until I popped the hood and saw the timing components were broke.
 
Probably the worst offender of that era was the 2.7 engine. Even with the owner doing oil changes every 3K miles, it would sludge, sometimes bad enough to choke the lubrication in short order. By the time Chrysler got it fixed, everybody knew of the reputation and avoided it.
 
Still have 55,000 miles to go on the Tundra before I'm supposed to change. I drive it less than 5,000 miles a year now that we moved back to the city.

I will be 79 years old next week, so don't think that I'll be around long enough to have to change the timing belt. The next owner will have to do that.

P.S. My wife is already telling me to sell it because I don't use it enough. It took us 13 months to put 7,000 miles on the Camry.
 
What engine was it? In the mid 80's, Buick and Olds mid size cars used a 3.0 engine that was the fore-runner of the 3.8. The 3.0's used a composition cam gear that would run 80K to 100K miles and shred the gear teeth off the metal base.

But-while the gear teeth were shredding and the engine was still running OK, the debris from the gear teeth plugged the oil pump and took out the lower end bearings. The front rod bearing was usually the first to go. Or sometimes the cam gear would go and people would replace the gear without cleaning up the bottom end. Then a couple thousand miles later, the bearings would go.

It wasn't an interference engine, but besides replacing the cam gears, you still had to tear it down, clean up the bottom end, grind the crank and replace the bearings. Usually rering it at the same time while it was torn down. I did a half dozen or more of them.

In fact, in the late 80's I bought a couple of Buick Centuries that had the problem, rebuilt the engines, and used them for daily drivers for our daughter and myself.

I ran into an 87' Buick LeSabre with a 3.8 that did it. I suspected the 3.8 took the same cam gear and GM had a bunch of the fiber gears left over so they used some in the 3.8.
 
My daughter and SIL never open their hood for any reason! I try to explain the folly in this to no avail! They were sending me pictures and details of used cars they found! I would research the engine-if it was a timing belt I said NO WAY! The Chevy Aveo needs the belt replaced at 60,000, and inspected at 30,000! I figured no way were they going to get that right!
 
I would also replace the front cam seals and front crank seal,,, on Toyota's and Honda 4"s I also remove the oil pump and replace the O-ring and shaft seal... WHY because like water pumps and timing belt components they likely will not make it thru another 100K cycle and you will prematurely have to go back and replace these parts are their failure will cause a premature failure of the cam belt ...

I like it when other shops cheap out they are only baiting the hook for me down the road...

Have you picked up one of these... This tool does not work all the time as far as removal of a seal but has always worked on asy...
Its a great time saver....

If you do buy one get a few extra seal puller hooks (long and short) cuzz you will break'em till you figure out their breaking point...

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...upersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all
 
More than likely the 2.7 v6 . Like ASEGuy mentioned,,,,shudder ! lol. Water pump is built into front timing cover. When they go bad they usually leak into oil pan taking out bearings. Sludge issues cause poor oil pressure to the timing chain tensioner which lets chain go slack and jump time ,bending valves. Updated timing kit is pretty pricey . There is an aftermarket part avail that bolts on top of tensioner to keep it from going slack . Can"t recall who makes it, have installed a few of them and seem to work pretty good .
 

Nutter good tip....

Bosch oil filters now come in a thin clear plastic box... You can cut up the box and use it as a seal protector on those shafts that don't allow the lip of the seal to fit over the shaft before they contact the part they fit into... :twisted: :evil: If You know what I mean.... :wink:
 
Just did a 92 Honda F22A6 interference engine.
First one for me and a learning experience.
Nothing impossible but for me time consuming.
Honda does stuff 8 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb sack.
Remember the 70's when you could change a timing belt on certain cars in 15-20 minutes with a $10.00 belt.
 
Goose,
The 3800 V6 has been around in its present form since 1975. Few changes along the way, ie. FWD (tranverse mounting).

Only thing I can think of back then is the 60 degree V6 3.0L which is a whole different engine than the 3800 V6.

Rick
 
Keep the tundra.Even though you dont use it much,When you need it,you NEED it!I dont know 'bout you,but I just couldnt get along without my pickup.Wheather or not I used it.
 
Just did my Toyota 3.4L with 92000 miles on belt, but I think that's not an interference engine. I've always done the pump tentioner and pulleys every other time. Now I do everything at the same time with as much work as it is to get to it
 
I did my first on a 87 Thunderbird Turbo in a Autozone parking lot 1000 miles from home. Broke down on the interstate, needed to be home the next morning for work, no one could get to it for a couple days... Bought parts and tools, luckily not an interference engine.

The only other eventful one I did was on my wife's 04 Civic a few years back. I did the 100,000 miles service, new water pump, idler/tensioner(premium Japan parts)... At 135,000 miles the bearing went out of the idler, which tore the tab/hole out of the tensioner. Wife called on here way hole from work that there was a "rattle" under the hood, she drove it 60 miles with no idler as best I can tell. Only the plastic casing keeping the belt in place. I dodged a bullet on that one, could have been an expensive fix, testament to Honda.
 
I won't argue your points. The fact remains that I DID have an '87 LeSabre with the 3.8 brought to me with the front rod bearing spun. When I tore it down, I found the cam bearings appeared brand new and the oil pump screen and bottom end were full of the same residue I'd seen in 3.0's with a fiber cam gear shredded.

I always thought I'd never gotten the full story on the car. I couldn't prove the fiber cam gear 'cause it had steel cam gears that appeared new. The car had 77K miles on it and the cam gears didn't show the wear they should have. At 77K, the cam gears should have shown at least slight wear indentations from the timing chain. They didn't. I theorized the engine had had a fiber cam gear that had shredded, someone replaced the timing gears without cleaning up the bottom end, and shortly thereafter the bearings went.

The full story on the car was, in the mid 90's a banker gave the car, with the rod knock, to a brother-in-law of mine on the condition the car not be parted out or go to a salvage yard. The banker said it had been his wife's car and she died six months before.

My BIL brought me the car, and I went to work on it. Then the banker went to my BIL and wanted the car back, said it had been his wife's car, she'd always loved it, and he couldn't bear to let it go. My BIL told the banker he couldn't give it back 'cause it was in his BIL's shop having the engine rebuilt. The banker said he'd gladly pay for the engine rebuild if he could just have the car back.

Upshot was, when I delivered the car back to my BIL, along with the bill for the engine rebuild, my BIL added $500 to the bill and wrote me a check. My BIL said he'd get the $500 plus a few hundred more for a handling fee when he gave the car back to the banker. Which he did, and as far as I know the banker was glad to get the car back and lived happily ever after.

Too many things didn't add up in the deal. Two facts stood out, though. For one, the steel cam gear that was in the LeSabre matched perfectly a defunct gear out of a 3.0 that was in an iron pile by my shop, and with steel timing gears, a 3.8 should never have had timing gear/chain problems at 77K miles.
 
I have been told different stories on same engine, some say it has a belt and others say it has a chain so whu is correct? And a non interference engine can have the valves destroyed when a chain lets go. 1974 Chevy 350 had this happen to in Canada and am from Ohio. He had trouble finding parts at that time as supplier had just lost everything in a fire. This happened at 10 sat morning. Skipped his afternoon off to try to get going, had found chain and thought things wood be good found when he went to start bent valves. Finally at 9 wed evening he rolled it out of shop running. And labor was less than would have been at home and he also helped me find the only avaible rental car. at 9 that sat night.
 
That's what I told my wife, but she's not really buying it. However, when I go somewhere in the truck, she really likes it that she has the car to go wherever she wants to go. Even when she says she doesn't need the car that day, when I get back home I find that she went somewhere with the car.
 
A bit of correction here...

GM did make a 3.0 engine that was a 90-degree V-6. They also made a 2.8, a 3.1, and 3.4 that were 60-degrees.
 
Hmmm, I don"t remember the 3.0L being 90 degree but its been a few years too. All the other ones sure, 2.8, 3.1 etc.

On the cam gear, I remember SB using a nylon gear over a steel hub too, which caused all sorts of problems when the engines got to higher milege. I am thinking early 70s on the SB for that gear.
 
Basically dealt with three different cars with timing belts, Some first generation Escorts, a Mustang SVO (2.3 turbo) and a 91 Honda Accord. I bought my Escort by trading my equity away in a Bronco II (in the Air Force and headed overseas without a car), the Escort came to me at 93,000 miles, I was guaranteed by the dealer the timing belt had just been done, unfortunately he didn't guarantee the head wasn't cracked, I needed it to last about 6 weeks and it did. When I came back to the world and got a better car (the Mustang) I beached the Escort at the Farm, my brother resurrected it and drove it a year later because he didn't change the cam belt on his Escort and bent 3 valves. The Mustang ate one cam belt while I drove it, but it isn't an interference engine so no foul. We bought the Honda new in December of '90 it had a cambelt at 100,000 miles, again at 200,000 miles and at 243,000 miles (the water pump finally died) on the last one even though it would start and run I towed it to the shop. I had the belt done while they were in there to do the water pump. I figured it'd be the last timing belt in the Honda, that was 6 years ago and it's still going strong. If It's still around at 300,000 miles I might spring for a new belt. If it's interference engine and got a rubber belt changing them is normal maintenance just like changing oil, do it and you'll be okay, don't do it and you're rolling the dice on every trip you take.
 
My '97 ford ranger,2.3L owners manual said change at 125,000, so I've did it twice so far. Our '02 dodge intrepid 3.5L had it done previous to our buying it, maybe 60 or 70,000 ago. It looks like a pita, but I like trucks better than cars. Mark
 
My passat has the 1.8T- an interference engine I had the belt changed at around 115000 miles. They do the water pump at the same time and bend you over with out any lube. Co worker with a jetta with a different engine and he did the belt himself, and then a few thousand later a bolt back out and trashed the drive pulley, and the belt. He escaped wrecking his engine some how, and he doesn't even think the bolt that backed out was one he loosened in the first place...

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
Let me see..

2002 audi I4 turbo: belt, pump, idler/tensioner.

!998 audi v6: belt,pump idler/tensioner

2004 VW TDI, be ready for this one!

1994 Geo tracker x2 (easiest by far)

1981? vw rabbit non interference t belt

198X? Honda CVCC civic

1982? Buick station wagon chain ( plastic cam gear, watch for plugged oil screen)

I don't know the others. but the Audi cars are meant to be worked on. The front radiator core support is meant to be removed with only a few fasteners.

D.
 
We had an Intrepid with a 2.7 but we chickened out and traded off after we heard about the 2.7's reputation.

Had a 84 Fifth Avenue with a 318. When I was gone on the harvest the timing chain jumped for Marilyn when she was in town. It hardly ran so she called a mechanic a friend recommended. He came and messed with the ignition timing till it half way ran and sent her home. When she was home she called me and told me what happened. I told her to not start it, just have it towed to a mechanic I knew was good. It cost me every valve and a couple of bent push rods. This 'mechanic' that was recommended to Marilyn didn't even suspect a jumped chain. Jim
 
Back in the '80's when I moved to the north side of Chicago, I bought a Dodge D50 pickup manufactured by Mitsubishi. Hey, it worked in Chicago. At 50,000 miles exactly some idiot light came on. The odometer hit 50,000 and POOF to the very second, on it came. To me, the timing seemed suspect, so I scanned the owners manual, and there in plain English, at 50,000 miles some idiot light will come on to remind you to have the timing belt changed. Ahh Haa, a gimick to get me down to the Dodge garage and spend money needlessly...I figured. Well, if it can be programmed to come on at 50,000, then there must be a way to shut it off as well...I figured. I crawled around under the dash and found a little slide switch somewhere near the back of the idiot light panel, slid it, and the light went off. That will teach them a lesson...I figured. Driving down the road one cold Friday on my way home from work just before some long holiday weekend, the engine just quit and on came another idiot light, as I recall somewhere under 50,100 miles and I glided off to the side of the road dead in the water. I ended up being towed to the Shell service station near my house and sat out the long holiday weekend vehicleless. On Monday, my neighbor and friend, Chuck from the Shell station called me and said that the timing belt was broken and needed to be replaced. Luckly the low compression engine didn't float any valves far enough to get slapped by any piston domes and do anymore damage when it happened. The belt got replaced, and on my way, the idiot went.

Used to build big block Chevys back in the '70's. When the timing chain or gear would go on an 11:1 or 12:1 high domed piston and a floating valve would get slapped, scrap heads afterwards, most definately pistons, and sometimes connecting rods. A common mistake when folks would lose the teeth on a timing gear, and they would replace the chain and gears, they wouldn't think to pull the oil pan, remove the oil pump sump pickup and clean the pieces of the broken teeth out of the pickup that now blocked the screen from being able to pickup oil to lubricate out to the various parts and compnents of the engine that would then result in spun bearings and all kinds of other very expensive issues due to no oil flow.

Mark
 
I had an 88 ranger 4cyl. and changed the belt for good measure. It was very easy and I didn't put a lot of miles on the truck so I sold it before it needed another one. My grandmother had one break on a 91 ranger that was dealer serviced. He refused to have his guys check it like she read in the manual and it broke soon after, but it was a non interference engine. My parents also had one break on an 89 subaru wagon. Non-interference, so no damage but a lot of headache getting it home and then to a shop, etc... We have an 06 subaru legacy sedan with the 2.5 engine that is an interference motor so I got a Subaru mechanic that is a friend of a relative to change it on time. He didn't charge much and the belt still looked good at the recommended change interval. I watched him do it and couldn't believe how simple it was since most things are a PITA on newer cars. I've never had to do much to the legacy, but the way it handles with all wheel drive and as easy as it is to work on has made me a believer in those cars.
 
Haven't seen that kit Hobo. I'll see if it's in the budget. I've always removed them with a screw threaded into the seal. The 3.5 was designed to be a racing engine, so the cam gear wasn't keyed. That's what they told me at the training center years ago. It requires a special tool(s) to lock the cams in position from the rear to ensure proper camshaft gear position. Ain't it great?
 
(quoted from post at 15:57:41 12/02/13) Haven't seen that kit Hobo. I'll see if it's in the budget. I've always removed them with a screw threaded into the seal. The 3.5 was designed to be a racing engine, so the cam gear wasn't keyed. That's what they told me at the training center years ago. It requires a special tool(s) to lock the cams in position from the rear to ensure proper camshaft gear position. Ain't it great?
Click to expand...

If this is the first key-less set up you have done were have you been hiding they have been around for awhile... I like them over a keyed set up other than the special tooling needed to nail the timing dead nutz... Anyone that thinks they can mark the belt to the pulleys and put the new one back in the same place will be surprised... I have re-timed a few ford Zetec's were the owner replaced the belt without locking in the cam and crank, you could not tell the timing was off but it was off a frog hair and that's all I had to to was lock in the crank and loosen the cam gears and nail them down with the cam locking tool then tighen the cam gears back up

The worst belts I have done

96 chebby Monte Carlo 3.4 DOHC P.O.S. (GM dealer loaned me the tools to do it they did not want to do it)... Follow institutions to the T....

1997 LEXUS LS400 V8... All I can say is pack lunch, supper and a bed time snack every thing mounted to the engine is tied to the front of the engine and has to come off... If you skip the seals you will get to go back into it they are leakers... It has two dist caps and rotors that are mounted to the end of each cam :roll: "whut were they thinking" ....
 
Thanks Duner,
Gonna do some digging deeper, didnt realize that 3.0L was a 3800 variant. Thought they were all off the 60 degree engines.
Rick
 
The engine I get both claims on is a Dodge 3.0 in the Caravans, had one in the 88 and one now in the 98. So what is the truth?
 
And what I was meaning with the story of the Chevy was that even tho they are not supposed to be an interfeince engine they can do the same damage as an interferince engine when something goes bad.
 
(quoted from post at 19:13:24 12/02/13) The engine I get both claims on is a Dodge 3.0 in the Caravans, had one in the 88 and one now in the 98. So what is the truth?
Click to expand...

All the Chrysler 3.0 V6's I have ran into were 3.0 Mitsubishi engines..

They are pert neer bullet prof...
 
And the 2.7 has a horrible reputation for timing chain failures. The cheap water pump leaks coolant into the oil causing the engine to sludge up, hydraulic timing chain tensioners fail, timing chain fails then the pistons hit the valves destroying the engine.

Thousands of Intrepids with nice looking bodies and interiors are sitting in junk yards because of this engine.
 
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