One thing I never understood

onefarmer · Nov 30, 2013

If a 12v battery can start a LARGE Cummins diesel engine, it can also start a small MF35. Now leaving the CCA of the battery aside. Why do they put a starter on these engines that many times need a boost in cold weather? Why not put a larger starter on the engine and really whip that engine over.

For instance: If my NH455 skidsteer with a 3cyl Kubota engine had a large starter like a JD4430, imagine the cranking rpms it would be capable of.

Janicholson · Nov 30, 2013

All manufacturers try to reduce costs in every way they can. If the starter will pretty much do the job, that is it. Heavier cables are a best practices tactic. Some suppliers can supply higher output starters, some are interchangable from bigger engines. Jim

John B. · Dec 1, 2013

With diesel engines many things play a factor in cold weather starting than just the starter. But I know what you mean.
What I don't like is why they rate batteries with CCA. It can deliver some many amps at a certain temperature but I would like to know for how long....

Dave in Tx · Dec 1, 2013

Seems to me that a direct injection engine is much easier to start than one with fuel cells. I have a Yanmar that will start at 0 with no ether or heat, and a Kubota with glow plugs that @ 15 degrees you better not need it. If you use the glow plugs for a minute or 2 and it don't start there is no use trying it again.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 1, 2013

Most of the time it is money, space and weight, in that order. a customer look

Mike M · Dec 1, 2013

A good chance that MF35 is old enough it's due for starter repair a new heavier cables.

cole in mo. · Dec 1, 2013

Briggs and Stratton uses the same starter on most of their engines. But they have a built in compression releses, that goes away when the engine starts. I wonder if even on a diesel, they could have the same thing. Not enough like the IH with start on gas and go to diesel, but drop it just enough so it would still run, but turn over easier. Sometimes I get in trouble when I think too much, but just wondering.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 1, 2013

Don't know what happened there? Bottom line is an engineer said that is the size starter or whole engine for that matter that is needed.

ss55 · Dec 1, 2013

If the original starter does the job with a boost, wouldn't the problem be with the battery (and maybe the cables) instead of the starter? If a boost didn't help, then I would question the starter.

If the battery can't deliver enough amps to power the original starter at low temperatures, I don't believe the same low amps would do any better with a higher powered starter, unless the bigger starter is much more efficient than the original starter.

Traditional Farmer · Dec 1, 2013

Many of the foreign built diesels like Yanmars have a compression release once the engine starts turning and gets up to speed drop the compression release and it'll usually fire right up.

Texasmark1 · Dec 1, 2013

The 3 cyl 1000 series Ford tractors state in the manual that the gas tractor uses a 4" diameter starter and the diesel a 5" diameter. There is one mfgrs. answer to your question.

Problem in cold weather is that the engine resistance (thick oil) is max and the battery available power is min. So you have the worst of both fighting you. Additionally, in a diesel, you have to get the air in the cylinder hot enough to explode the diesel spray mist. Spinning fast can do that as can glow plugs and pre heat air. In the case of the Ford mentioned, they set diesel droplets on fire in the intake manifold and suck them into the chamber. Works!

Clean connections and adequate sized wiring helps as does multiviscosity oil. Take Shell's Rotella T for example....I know as I use it. In dino oil it's 15w-40 but in synthetic it's 5w-40. Makes a difference. When I bought my latest tractor it had a Cummins engine. I called Cummins and asked about that syn oil and they said my engine would LOVE it. So much for that.

Mark

jon f mn · Dec 1, 2013

A 12v battery won't start a large cummins engine, 4 12v batteries will tho. At least that is what they use in trucks and if you want it to be reliable you better have 1000 cca's each.

Wheat Farmer · Dec 1, 2013

As posted below CABLES. If you have something not turning over fast. STOP. but a jumper cable in the same place as you Battery cables. I have to make my own cable now days. I like at lease a number 0.

Leroy · Dec 1, 2013

The Fordson Major did have that compression release but it was manual. Release to start and as soon as running reset it.

David G · Dec 1, 2013

Cost, do what works most of the time.

farmerwithmutt · Dec 1, 2013

im not sure but the old formula was 1 amp for 1 cu inch a 350 would need at least 350 amps

buzz saw · Dec 1, 2013

(quoted from post at 07:26:47 12/01/13) A 12v battery won't start a large cummins engine, 4 12v batteries will tho. At least that is what they use in trucks and if you want it to be reliable you better have 1000 cca's each.

Jon, you are absolutly spot on. Four, 1000 CCA batteries with sometimes double 2/0 cables, that is a pair of 2/0 cables on the positive side of the starter and a pair of 2/0 on the negative grounded directly on the starter. That would be say for an 855, N14, or ISX Cummins, all six cylinders. For our Cummins K series, the V12 and V16 engines we us four 1400 CCA, 12 volt batteries wired for 24 volts, driving two starters.

rustred · Dec 1, 2013

i dont think a 350 cca battery would even turn over a super wd 9 engine , 350 cid. in cool weather.
its cables and connections and high cca battery thats neeeded along with a starter in good shape.

onefarmer · Dec 1, 2013

OK so they size the starter to work "most of the time" due to cost. Too bad they don't have options for larger, more powerful starters. Call it part of a cold weather kit or whatever.

What brought all this on was, it's getting colder and was having memories of starting my uncles MF265, everyday for chores in the winter. We put 10w oil in, had the biggest cca battery we could find, 2-0 cables.

MARK ROBKE · Dec 1, 2013

Actually, you can't leave out CCA. You need all the CCA you can get when the engine is stone cold. Our co. specs 4 650 CCA batteries in paralel(12v) in most of our trucks. 1 12v battery will not start a large diesel. The trend has been to use a smaller 39mt starter instead of the larger 42 mt. I did not think they would crank as good, but they do. Our co. is emphatic on checking cables on PMs ; it works: we jump start less and less every year. Mark

J.Wondergem · Dec 1, 2013

(quoted from post at 00:59:01 12/01/13) If a 12v battery can start a LARGE Cummins diesel engine, it can also start a small MF35. Now leaving the CCA of the battery aside. Why do they put a starter on these engines that many times need a boost in cold weather? Why not put a larger starter on the engine and really whip that engine over.

For instance: If my NH455 skidsteer with a 3cyl Kubota engine had a large starter like a JD4430, imagine the cranking rpms it would be capable of.

Then you wouldn't need the 3 cyl Kubota motor.

BushogPapa · Dec 1, 2013

Depending how cold, you may need a Battery Warmer AND a Block Heater..

Warming the batteries can Double the available CCA the battery will deliver at 0 Degrees.

Ron.

4xMF · Dec 1, 2013

I've always wondered, why don't my tractors just have an extra start motor that you could plug to the 230 or 400V wall socket and really crank the engine no matter the temperature?

onefarmer · Dec 1, 2013

Sounds good to me. Or more pony start motors.

One thing I never understood

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