Electronic Magneto Rehashed

Anonymous-0 · Nov 25, 2013

Thanks to all that had a reply to my former question on mags.
I think some were of the opinion that I was refering to the mags on a lawn mower engine.
When I work on an old Briggs engine that has points I do away with them and install an electronic coil, even the engines that have external points, seems like they start and run better than the old point ignition.
The original question I was refering to concerend the magnetos such as a Wico etc.

John T · Nov 25, 2013

Mornin Harvey, Yep I remember the post and I (perhaps others) WAS NOT talking about a lawn more ignition as I well stated, but an electronic ignition replacement unit for an old Tractor Magneto, such as say a Wico C or X model magneto.

Again, Ive NEVER seen an electronic ignition direct replacement unit to replace a Tractor "Magneto".

A) I HAVE seen a Mag converted over to a battery powered coil distributor Ignition in which the distributor function/portion of the mag and the points (to switch coil current on and off) was left intact but a coil was powered instead from a battery via an On/Off switch.

B) I have seen Mags converted over to an Elec Ignition by FIRST replacing them with a bolt in battery powered coil distributor (such as a John Deere Delco distributor to replace a Wico C or X mag, bolts right in the same) AND THEN INSTALLING AN ELEC SWITCH WHICH REPLACES THE OLD POINTS.

HOWEVER I HAVE NEVER SEEN A UNIT THAT DIRECTLY REPLACES A MAGNETO THAT OFFERS ELEC IGNITION SWITCHING.

A Mag can be used on tractors that don't even have a battery (like many old hand starters) as they produce their own energy. The elec ignition conversions and kits Ive seen are for battery powered coil distributor ignitions and they use battery power to feed the coil PLUS supply bias and operating voltage to operate the solid state elec switch.

HOWEVER if I recall correctly I think our friends Walt and Old claim they are available and I would loveeeeeeeeeee to see one or the advertisement or any sales literature or specs or data so we can learn just how they are operated. Hey, I'm never too old to learn so pleaseeeeeeeee if those two fine gentlemen or anyone else has any literature or info (Elec Ignition unit to replace a Magneto) please share it with us and so Harvey there can look into it.

Still curious n willin to learn Old John T

Bob · Nov 25, 2013

John T... I was thinking about this (Yeah, DANGEROUS, I KNOW) and was wondering/pondering if an add-on EI for a lawnmower engine would work with a tractor mag...

One problem would be that the spark polarity of a tractor mag with a magnetic armature REVERSES every other spark event... every 180º rotation of the "armature". That certainly wouldn't work with a lawnmower unit, which always "sees" spark of the same polarity.

Had you thought of that "angle"?

waltdavies · Nov 25, 2013

What I was referring to was a conversion kit from the mag to battery ignition using the old base of the mag. Like I said I have seen one on the net sometime ago but wasn't interested enough to worry about details like mag type or tractor.
Walt

John T · Nov 25, 2013

No Bob, I hadn't really thought of that angle!!

Lets think this through (I have questions later, hold on)

I don't see why a lawn mower coil magneto couldn't be made to work (but see caveats later). As long as a magnet, be it North or South Magnetic Polarity, passes fast enough by a coil of wire, a voltage is induced into the coils LV Primary which can be increased over in a HV Secondary AND THAT OCCURS IN A TRACTOR MAG when the points break/open the LV Primary current flow and the field collapses (so transformer action takes place). On the Wico its best for the points to break open at the time the primary current is at its max and that's 0.090 after the rotor magnet passes out of the armature laminations i.e the famous EDGE GAP SETTING which is APPROXIMATED by setting the points gap to 0.015

Now, if on the lawn mower single cylinder engine flywheel there were 2 magnets instead of 1, you would get a spark each time right. On the Wico Mags there is obviously a North and South end on the magnetic rotor so each spark is of opposite polarity BUT THAT DONT HURT THEY STILL WORK THAT WAY NOT withstanding how its best for the electrons to jump from the hotter tip to the cooler plug electrode but that's a whole other topic.

BUT on those small engine coils that mount by the flywheel that have the HV plug wire coming out of them IS THERE SOME ELECTRONIC SWITCHING GOING ON (replaces points open n close) which would be polarity sensitive therefore they may NOT work at opposite polarity???????????? I'm asking OR Is it simply that a sudden primary voltage spike occurs and as its diminished the magnetic field collapses thereby HV gets induced over in the secondary WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR SWITCHING?????????

Another question if you put 2 magnets on a single cylinder engine flywheel 180 apart CAN THEY BE THE SAME POLARITY I dont see why not. I don't really understand (never thought of it) if the magnets on the lawn mower engine flywheel are N one side and S the other or just what they are???

Soooooooo not an answer but just questions sorry Bob lol

REGARDLESS Ive still NEVER seen a direct bolt in replacement elec switched unit to replace an old tractor magneto, have you??? Sure they produce their own energy, but a solid state switching device uses bias and polarity sensitive energy that usually comes from a DC battery instead of a rotating reversing polarity more like AC Magneto, so I'm curious to see how they work and wouldn't bet a dime they're really out there like the good gents Walt n Old suggest?????IM NOT DOUBTING THEIR WORD, JUST LOVE TO SEE ONE

John T Ever curious

John T · Nov 25, 2013

Thanks for clarifying that Walt,

Yep Ive seen tons of mags first converted over to a battery powered distributor
and after that the points are replaced by a magnet on the rotor and a pick up trigger coil electronic ignition system. I think Harvey is lookin for a direct bolt in replacement WHICH IVE NEVER SEEN

You take care Walt, I enjoy the pictures you post now n then, keep em comin

John T

Mike M · Nov 25, 2013

John T; Years ago on a clearance shelf I picked up some little gizmos that were a plastic green square about an inch square by 1/8" thick.
Now these were for briggs and techumse engines. They were to be different for each maker.This was before Briggs had their magnetron ing.
Now I never did use any and I think I sold the ones I had for one model to a fellow who loved them. I just wonder if they would work ? I think I have one left ?

I myself seem to get along fine with points and condenser systems. Go figure ? Maybe I'm the only one left ? LOL

D beatty · Nov 25, 2013

There was a palace south of Wabash,In. that could take a mag and make it electronic. I was going to do that to a mag on an RC Case but found the parts that I needed and never converted it. They may not be in bussiness seeing as that has been some time ago.

Anonymous-0 · Nov 25, 2013

Mike M,
I have been using the gizzmo on Briggs engines to make them electronic for a long time. If the coil is strong they work great. Anymore I just put a new coil on and forget it. I'm a little lazy and don't have to mess with points.

JMOR · Nov 25, 2013

(quoted from post at 13:36:27 11/25/13) No Bob, I hadn't really thought of that angle!!

Lets think this through (I have questions later, hold on)

I don't see why a lawn mower coil magneto couldn't be made to work (but see caveats later). As long as a magnet, be it North or South Magnetic Polarity, passes fast enough by a coil of wire, a voltage is induced into the coils LV Primary which can be increased over in a HV Secondary AND THAT OCCURS IN A TRACTOR MAG when the points break/open the LV Primary current flow and the field collapses (so transformer action takes place). On the Wico its best for the points to break open at the time the primary current is at its max and that's 0.090 after the rotor magnet passes out of the armature laminations i.e the famous EDGE GAP SETTING which is APPROXIMATED by setting the points gap to 0.015

Now, if on the lawn mower single cylinder engine flywheel there were 2 magnets instead of 1, you would get a spark each time right. On the Wico Mags there is obviously a North and South end on the magnetic rotor so each spark is of opposite polarity BUT THAT DONT HURT THEY STILL WORK THAT WAY NOT withstanding how its best for the electrons to jump from the hotter tip to the cooler plug electrode but that's a whole other topic.

BUT on those small engine coils that mount by the flywheel that have the HV plug wire coming out of them IS THERE SOME ELECTRONIC SWITCHING GOING ON (replaces points open n close) which would be polarity sensitive therefore they may NOT work at opposite polarity???????????? I'm asking OR Is it simply that a sudden primary voltage spike occurs and as its diminished the magnetic field collapses thereby HV gets induced over in the secondary WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR SWITCHING?????????

Another question if you put 2 magnets on a single cylinder engine flywheel 180 apart CAN THEY BE THE SAME POLARITY I dont see why not. I don't really understand (never thought of it) if the magnets on the lawn mower engine flywheel are N one side and S the other or just what they are???

Soooooooo not an answer but just questions sorry Bob lol

REGARDLESS Ive still NEVER seen a direct bolt in replacement elec switched unit to replace an old tractor magneto, have you??? Sure they produce their own energy, but a solid state switching device uses bias and polarity sensitive energy that usually comes from a DC battery instead of a rotating reversing polarity more like AC Magneto, so I'm curious to see how they work and wouldn't bet a dime they're really out there like the good gents Walt n Old suggest?????IM NOT DOUBTING THEIR WORD, JUST LOVE TO SEE ONE

John T Ever curious

elieve you still need the switch (points equivalent) to interrupt current flow & yield field collapse, i.e., SS ign....not just coil & magnets.

dr sportster · Nov 25, 2013

To me that is like taking a Berreta shotgun and altering it to shoot wine bottle corks. You have a mag.I do know of a device that the mag ground triggers to fire a battery, coil in addition for dual spark plug heads.

John T · Nov 25, 2013

THANKS JMOR for the info, I appreciate it. That's kind of what I was thinkin, since years ago they used the mechanical points but once solid state devices came along they started making those small engine coil lookin devices (Magnetron) that must have some sort of a solid state switching device hidden away inside...

As always, love sparky chattin with ya

John T

Bob · Nov 25, 2013

"I do know of a device that the mag ground triggers to fire a battery, coil in addition for dual spark plug heads."

Wanna share, or is it a "secret society" sort of thing???

Bob · Nov 25, 2013

Mike,

Likely they WOULD work, if you could get past the "every other spark event is of the opposite polarity" thing about a typical tractor mag.

As was discussed before, this is NOT a problem with small engines 'cuz every "spark event" is of the same polarity.

Determined · Nov 25, 2013

Almost what you are looking for
They make them for aircraft so the technology is out there
google search
e-mag p model ignition
Electronic mag with built in alternator winding to self power.
Will keep engine running without external power but requires minimum 800 rpm.

dr sportster · Nov 27, 2013

Contact Morris Magneto Morristown NJ. It has four wires .You still need a battery and external coil. They will probably send you a free catalog.It works in addition to the magneto.The signal off the ground wire trigger the external batery -coil set-up. I have one but I never installed it.

Electronic Magneto Rehashed

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