OT Concealed Carry Illinois

Finally....Last state in the country to get it. I've been waiting for this for years here. Born and raised on the SW side of Chicago. I know what it's about. Everyone in the city isn't like the boneheads that run it now. Just there by necessity for steady work in most cases. Taking the 16 hour course this weekend as part of the requirement for CCW License. How do you guys feel about it?. I'm 110% behind it. Won't be a shoot'em up like some think from license holders. Just look at the statistics of all the other CCW states. Worst part of taking this course is no bow hunting this weekend! The Rut is on in Northern Illinois!

you should not have to spend 16 hr. to take a course. the gang bangers will not. I want to know what they are going to do with out of state cc ? no way in hel- will I come to ill. with out my gun and we go thru ill. a lot around the crime capital of the USA

Way to go Tom, and way to go Ill. Here in MI. we have open carry privileges but it's easy to get harrassed doing it (just because they can) so I'm doing the class (8 hrs here) on the 24th (yes they do it on Sunday) to get my permit. They would rather have you conceal because of public panic over open carry. And so I will! They know we aren't the ones to worry about. I've been known to CC anyway but will be nice to make it legal.

It's about time, even if they have made it as difficult as they could!
I think the outcome woll be the same as in every other state....lower crime rates!

No class next door in indiana, just pay your money and wait a
little while and your good to go!

I plan on getting a CCW permit as soon as I have
enough money. How much is the training course going
to cost you? I know the state will get $150 for the
permit.

Here in MO I can take the course for free being a Vet but I have not done so since they love to keep and pass on the paper work so if and when it comes to taking guns that is another way for the Gov. to track what you have

Me and the wife both got ours here in NC. We took the course back during the summer and then applied for/got an appointment with the Sheriffs Dept to actually do the permit application. Went in on the prescribed day, got printed, signed a sheet stating we know the laws, and went home. A little over 60 days later I got a call saying out permits were in. So, second trip to the Sheriff"s office, and $90 each later and we"re covered for 5 years.

Personally I"m not the kind to expect the worst, but I"ve got a buddy that was held up at gunpoint around the first of the year, inside the fence at his place of employeement around 4 AM. All he was doing was standing at the back of his car waiting on the rest of the guys to show up, and getting his stuff ready to head out of town, it"s not like he was on a street corner in the "bad" part of town. Point is I know it can happen to anyone, anywhere, so I might as well be ready if it ever happens to me, and want my wife to be just as prepared.

(quoted from post at 04:22:23 11/16/13) I plan on getting a CCW permit as soon as I have
enough money. How much is the training course going
to cost you? I know the state will get $150 for the
permit.

Click to expand...

I got in a class for $200 including the fingerprinting. Yes, fingerprinting. Mine are already on file for my CDL but have to be done again for some stupid a$$ reason.

Marloweg, I hear you and respect your opinion of Illinois. Just please remember, 99% of that crap you hear from the media is happening in the areas of the cities nobody would want to go to anyway. The spotlight just goes to the crime statistics that the abundant media wants the public like you and I to believe to achieve their ignorant, uneducated agendas. That's really not the case for 95% of Illinois. We are like any other state in the union. Just have some sh$$y areas like every state has.
Respectfully....Tom

I'm glad to see another state pass cc instead of states withdrawing under pressure from anties. The only advice I will offer to licensees is pratice and more pratice,learn your weapon,be able to load/unload holster/unholster blindfolded,shoot lieing on stomach/back or sitting,hit 2 or more targets in sucession. I think even more training such as how to disable an atacker that is attempting to gain control of your weapon should be required in order to apply for cc.
I will not apply in Texas for reasons already stated concurning feds desire to know where the guns are. Besides,if I am questioned about my weapon or have to use it,claiming to have it in my possesion for any number of reasons such as on my way to/from hunting, target pratice,repair,and swap/sell makes it legal to have the weapon most any time or place besides a beer joint.

Good for you Tom.
Here in Michigan the name has changed several times, the
correct name [b:871207a5ad]here[/b:871207a5ad] now is CPL. Concealed Pistol Licence.
Not good for carrying any other weapon concealed, not even
a billy club. Obviously there was a reason for that change.
"No, you can't carry your hand grenades in your coat pocket!" LOL

If IL does there's anything like MI, it makes things easier if you're
trying to buy any new equipment.
Instead of filling out paperwork, waiting a week or whatever, then
returning to the store and registering your purchase; you show
your CPL, pay and walk out of the store with it.
Although at Gander Mountain and Bass Pro shops an employee will
carry it out of the store and then hand it to you in the parking lot. :roll:

Good luck with your course and congratulations!

My wife and I both got CPLs a few years ago, but we never bother carrying. We have rental property in Pontiac, which has one of the highest crime rates in the country. I've found it to be a fair amount of aggravation to work on a house with a pistol stuck inside your waistband.

In Michigan, you do need to notify any law enforcement officers you happen to come in contact with that you have a CPL, even if you're not carrying. I was taken to task by one cop for not telling him when I was involved in a traffic accident. The CPL came up when he ran my driver's license.

(quoted from post at 21:58:46 11/15/13) I'm glad to see another state pass cc instead of states withdrawing under pressure from anties. The only advice I will offer to licensees is pratice and more pratice,learn your weapon,be able to load/unload holster/unholster blindfolded,shoot lieing on stomach/back or sitting,hit 2 or more targets in sucession.[b:46af968ed2] I think even more training such as how to disable an atacker that is attempting to gain control of your weapon should be required in order to apply for cc. [/b:46af968ed2]
I will not apply in Texas for reasons already stated concurning feds desire to know where the guns are. Besides,if I am questioned about my weapon or have to use it,claiming to have it in my possesion for any number of reasons such as on my way to/from hunting, target pratice,repair,and swap/sell makes it legal to have the weapon most any time or place besides a beer joint.

Click to expand...

So you think people should have to pass some sort of karate test and prove they're Chuck Norris before they can get permit? Sorry, I didn't see that in the 2nd Amendment anywhere. Criminals won't take the course or get a permit either. IMO asking for more regulation while claiming to be pro-gun rights is hypocrisy.

Congratulations to you and Illinois. I would like to see the number of ccp"s issued by state and broken down by race or ethnictivity.

Keep us posted Tom. I read an article the other day that told of fraudulent instructors - I hope you've checked everything out real well.

Everyone immediately thinks of Chicago whenever Illinois is mentioned. I've lived in Illinois all of my life, and I've NEVER been within 100 miles of Chicago. I'm at the opposite end of the state. It's a different world down here, from what I'm told.

We live out in the sticks. My wife likes to walk, and has packed her little .38 for 20 years, but not for muggers, murderers and rapists - our fear is rattlesnakes, copperheads, and rabid animals. I want her to get a CC permit. I'm anxious to turn her away from her lawless ways.

I like the idea. Don't know if I will bother with it though. Little
bit I have heard about fees sounds like a money making
raquet for the state. When it really comes down to it I would
still be worried the would throw me in jail as the good guy. Our
il govt sucks.

I agree with all of your points however if one dosen't take the course/get the permit and owns or even handles a handgun belonging to someone else he or she is a criminal.And again, as you say none of that nonsense is in the second amendment. A permit holder since 1/61.
NYS's most recently passed gun law is as big a "railroad job"as any you're likely to see!

Boy if that doesn't scream discrimination, I don't know what does.

Ilinois conceal carry laws were a 6 month legislative action taken under federal court threat order to become like Vermont. Chicago politicians lost the court case when federal judge said Heller applies to Illinois, Illinois no concealed carry law in public way violates constitution--SO, Illinois politicians got 6 months-and a extra month besides- to come up with a administrative police convenient constitutional law that recognized the individual right to "bare arms" and not try to "infringe" while having some "reasonable" identification with background check, training and record keeping as "regulation of militia" as Supreme court noted was practical requirement. Alternative was as noted Vermont"s 1904 decision NOT to restrict carry open or conceal for residents legally allowed to possess- and save the state a lot of money on record keeping and paperwork (Yankee thrift policy). Warren immunity from lawsuit for police fail to protect also was at risk, still is for possible 1980 to 2012 incidents being researched- unlikely but maybe after the Massachusetts(?) Warren decision in favor of state 2008(?)- the state noted that individual could legally carry pistol for protection under state law, state had expedited procedures for personal needs prior noted by court, etc so state not responsible to provide protection under Warren from 1978(?). The legal implication question to Madigan in Illinois was since the state doesn"t allow carry for protection like last Warren case noted--does this mean the state looses Warren immunity, especially if police take away the pistol later needed to defend? That question was ruled not relevant to the case, bypassed until actual lawsuit might be filed, but it was a possible legal point to be considered if somebody brought such a Illinois case before federal court. Things will be interesting in next couple years- and one little record keeping factor that might happen is a lot of nnalert will get their concealed carry permits. RN.

"I'm at the opposite end of the state. It's a different world down here...".

You know what? If y'all would get out and vote down there, Chicago wouldn't be running the state.

I used to live in Illinois at one time. Romeoville in Will County, a collar county of Cook County, Chicago. Don't miss it. My feeling on concealed carry in Illinois, is they will never see it in my life time. True the court ordered them to, and they even passed legislation in the state capitol. But the people that run the capitol don't like guns anymore than our president and are constantly looking for new twists and angles to stop law abiding citizens from enjoying our God given, Constitutional given rights, and keep coming up with more restrictive laws that then have to run through the courts to be struck down before more of the same, the same, the same, and before you know it, you will be dead and gone, never having had enjoyed the right to...

A few months ago, a former Illinois governor got out of prison. I lived in Illinois when he was governor and remember a lady going to jail for slapping him in the face with a pie. SPLAT!!! Why is it that people don't carry rotten vegetables and fruit with them to...? When did that stop? Why did it stop?

Mark

Hi Mark - sorry you're so bitter. Actually we do vote down here, well - not in the primaries - they don't have a ballot for independents and I don't want my name affiliated with either side. Anyhow, the elections are decided in the Chicago corner of the state, so it's a moot point. . .

I remember when George Ryan got the pie in his face. It happened over in Carbondale. If I remember right, she was hauled away to jail, but after a few days Ryan actually forgave her and she was released. Cristaudo's Bakery offered Ryan Pie on it's menu for awhile afterward. Heck, I kinda liked old George, even more so after the pie incident, and even if he was a crook. I never could warm up to his successor though. I can't spell his name. He's still in jail. Arrogant cuss. . . He's proof that money can buy an election. After the abysmal job he did in his first term, "we" elected him for a second one. As I said earlier, the elections are decided in Chicago.

I do think we'll see concealed carry in a few months. Time will tell.

I got my Concealed Carry permit in Virginia by filling out the application, paying the $50 (for 5 years) fee and attaching a copy of my Marine Corps discharge to the application. I was not required to take a class.

Well all, first 8 hours of 16 completed today. I've been around guns all my life and I must say, the class was still pretty informative. It is given by 2 Police sergeants from local PD's in collar counties of Crook County. I get the impression from the instructors and assistants that this has been a long time coming and well received by them. Not one political innuendo was mentioned during the day which surprised me. Went thru the Concealed Carry Act of Illinois, legal ramifications if you do need to use your firearm, other carry laws, dismantling and cleaning of your firearm, and SAFETY, SAFETY and more SAFETY. Also different carry options and holsters, vehicle carry regs. and such. Went thru all aspects of loading, unloading and dry firing the guns as well. Tomorrow is the required live range fire. Class is about 50/50 male female. Live fire requirements is 70% at 5, 7, and 10 yards. Need to hit a B27 human silhouette target 7 out of 10 times at those distances. Instructor tells us out of all classes so far, nobody has failed that portion. I asked why the ranges were that close and that [b:146c3db99d]ANYONE[/b:146c3db99d] should pass that and the answer was that 95% of all instances where a gun is used for self defense, they are that close when an actual confrontation happens. I'll update after tomorrow.

Requesting statistics is in no way discriminatory in any way. It's what one does with those figures that maters. For instance , our ins co. commit age discrimination every time they write an auto policy for someone under 25 or over 70. Nothing wrong with wanting to know which people carry legally and which ones don't.Most all decisions in this world are a product of good accurate statistics.

We also have "open carry" here in MI but it better be in perfect sight of a blind policeman or they will spoil your day just because they can. If it is in a holster on your right side but partially hidden by the console in your car....be prepared to set a while. They don't want to get calls from the public that "there's a man with a gun!!!!" so get the CC and hide it. The Govt already knows you have it.At least in MI they do.

Also, Tom, most CC pistols will have a barrel of 5" or less. At 15-20 yds non-supported shooter will be lucky to hit half the time. Also kinda hard to plead self defense at 20 yds.

Michigan went "shall issue" a few years back, as a response to some local gun boards "NO WAY" policies. Local gun boards are made up of Sheriff, prosecuting attorney, and post commander of the nearest state police post, Some were fairly abundant, some very tight fisted. Now in Michigan, applicants must take an 8 hour course, which includes range time. Application fee is over $100, and there is a charge for finger printing, you will go through a criminal background check. (When my son applied for his, they actually had a deputy stop by and ask if it was OK with us, since he lived with us - heck yes! I taught him to shoot, he's probably more careful, safer than I.) Gun board does still have to approve, but is more a rubber stamp. Problem is they're swamped with applicants.
Was at our county clerk's renewing mine last month, the clerk - my cousin volunteered that she figured half the county had a permit! Wife, son, daughter, and I all licensed.

(quoted from post at 08:35:47 11/16/13) Finally....Last state in the country to get it. I've been waiting for this for years here. Born and raised on the SW side of Chicago. I know what it's about. Everyone in the city isn't like the boneheads that run it now. Just there by necessity for steady work in most cases. Taking the 16 hour course this weekend as part of the requirement for CCW License. How do you guys feel about it?. I'm 110% behind it. Won't be a shoot'em up like some think from license holders. Just look at the statistics of all the other CCW states. Worst part of taking this course is no bow hunting this weekend! The Rut is on in Northern Illinois!

Click to expand...

8 hours in Mass, but instructor was a lawyer, and really stressed the liabilities of use, miss-use, losing it... that was the most interesting, talked about the need to make every option and contingency go thru your head before even pulling it out in public.
Yes, most handguns over 10 yards is a pig in a poke, so that was our training range too. Not too popular a belief, but in a nutshell, she said, and I always believed in it, a well placed small caliber hit out performs a large caliber miss...
Mass doesn't like to mention castle clause, but yeah, in your own house, you do whatever you see fit, but in public, thinking over the situation and your next move is seen as city slicker, but every police officer everywhere does this every shift doesn't he? He'll lose his job, you might lose your house.
I have no fear of holding the ccw, big brother already knows all it needs to about all of us. Actually most police in Mass see you as a notch above 'the usual suspects', since you've been... cleared by the chief, trained by a professional, and- vet-ted'?? by the feds, now NICS.
20 years ago pistol permits were held by less than 10% of Mass, the day after the marathon bombings there were 40,000 applications filed, 100,000's more since then.... I'm not so rare anymore...
hey, tomorrow, try not to shoot the instructor in the foot, I hear than is an instant F......

I'm a newly minted Iowa resident, $50.00 and a copy of my DD214 and I'm licensed to
carry. The question I have is the 2nd amendment says "The right to keep and bear
firearms shall not be infringed" No tax on newspapers because a tax could be
considered an infringement of the 1st ammendment (can't tax the right to free
speech) but the state or county can collect fees before you can exercise your second
amendment rights and collect sales tax and special taxes any time you buy a weapon
or ammunition? Requiring a driver's license or other state issued identity to vote
"unfairly" effects minorities and imposes a hardship on them thus infringing on
their right to vote so it's illegal, but requiring money before you can lawfully
exercise your 2nd amendment rights some how doesn't impose hardships on the same
underprivileged? You know if a locality required you to pay $50.00 for a 5 year
"voter's license" or required you pay for a background check to vote, or write for a
newspaper, or appear on broadcast media or even do what we are doing now (posting on
the web) there would be outrage (unless the government promised more free stuff as
they took away our rights).

No PJH, actually I'm not bitter. I've got a ton of friends there that I still keep in good contact with and visit and vica-versa. And I know you folks down state vote, but not enough of you, or even in my state, or the rest of the nation, and it shows. Its affects are showing.

True story. I was working in Kankakee the day after Ryan got the pie in the face. Ryan is or was from Kankakee. An elderly lady on the job comes up and asked me if I had heard about Ryan getting the pie in the face, and considering the things that Ryan had done, I jokingly said "Should have been two pies and a ball bat across the knees". She laughed and called her boss over and asked me to tell her what I had said, so I did, "Should have been two pies and a ball bat across the knees". Was Ryan's sister or sister-in-law, and that didn't go over well. I got tossed from the job site. She got over it eventually and used to ask for me by name to work on their equipment, but initially, I got tossed off of the job. I wish the elderly lady had clued me in first.

Here's is one that you may or may not know about Illinois election laws. I didn't at the time. As a staunch conservative, as a resident at the time, I couldn't vote for Ryan. I was there the day that the State Police, Secretary of State Police, and others raided the McCook Secretary of State drivers facility, arrested the guy in charge, siezed and carried out all of the computers and related paperwork over the "CDL licenses for $1,000 under the table" campaign donations to his election campaign. Because of his baggage and known corruption as Secretary of State, I couldn't vote for Ryan over Glen Pashard, but as a conservative couldn't vote for Pashard over his views and stances either. BUT, I never missed an election, and didn't miss that one either. There were other people on the ballot that I had insterests in such as Congress, State Reps, local council, school board, and you get the idea. So I cast my ballot. Later that night I was watching the election returns, and they had noted on the news that many such as myself had voted, but not for governor, as indicated by the numbers of votes cast in other races that were not gubernatorial that outnumbered votes cast for governor...AND that a little known Illinois state law stipulated that any ballot cast that did NOT cast a vote for the highest office on the ballot, Governor in that off-year election...gets tossed out. Keep that in mind as an Illinois resident and voter...in Illinois, there is a law that almost no one is aware of, that says if a voter casts a ballot and does cast a vote for the highest office/race on that ballot, the ENTIRE ballot is disqualified and tossed. I learned that during the 10:00 PM news while while watching the election returns the night that Ryan ran against Pashard, as countless people like myself had our ballots tossed in the garbage, in effect, because we couldn't stomach a vote for either of those guys, but had others lower on the ballot like Dennis Hastert that...

Illinois is a beautiful, rich with black dirt for farming state once you get west of Kendell County, south of Kankakee County, away from Cook and surrounding collar counties. Beautiful state with the nicest of people, things to do, places to go. Wonderful state. Problem is, that if you folks downstate don't cross every "T" and dot every "I", Chicago will keep winning the elections and running the show, Madigan and his daughter, her her uncle of Godfather (honestly) or whatever Cullerton is to her, uncle or Godfather, and the Daley's and Emanuals will keep being your bosses, and not the other way around. They all hate guns and gun owners and keep offering up new laws and challenges to laws and court rulings to drag it out into never never land. Remember a couple of years ago when Madigan tried to get released into the public the names of all FOID card owners and their addresses? If it wasn't for the State Police fighting and blocking her, she would have succeded, and getting them, their names, their addresses published because as law enforement officers, they too have to have FOID cards. As a down stater with fertile farm land and nice friendly town folk and neighbors that use common sense and trade apple pies at ice cream socials, folks like yourself, that's what you are up against. I was an Illinois resident that loved Illinois as a whole, but don't miss the headache or a 67% state income tax increase a couple of years ago, things like that. You rural Illinois folk, and I think that there are something like 11 million in Illinois, clearly outnumber the Chicago bull, but the Chicago bull has got you by the horns, not the other way around, and as I proof, I offer another former Illinois governor, still in prison, that worked out of Chicago during his entire tenture as governor, not Springfield where the office is and was. Yep, he's still in prison but not the same one that a former Congressman reported to a couple of weeks ago.

Good luck, and not only take that bull by the horns, put it on your dinner plate where it belongs.

Mark

I can understand your point to a degree, and anybody would have a hard time telling me that I didn't have a God given, Constitutional right to carry whatever type of weapon I wanted to on my own property. Thing is taking on the responsibility to carry and be able to use a pistol in a public place is another matter entirely. Yes, the right should be there, hense many places having "Shall issue" laws meaning anyone wanting one only has to 'ask' for it. That said, when carrying where others lives could be at risk by your actions, is no different than driving a car. Basically all the courses come down to is teaching you the same, basic laws that any law enforcement officer has to know and keep in mind before drawing his weapon, as well as showing a minimum proficiency with a pistol by being able to hit a human sized target at common ranges. It's not really any different that what we all have to go through learning the rules of the road (laws) concerning motor vehicle operation, and taking an instructor for a test ride to show proficiency in the operation of the vehicle before getting a drivers license.

Yes, ultimately the right to self defense is there, wether it's with a firearm, knife, or whatever. However, having seen the lack of knowledge in firearms use exhibited by some of the folks at the beginning of the class I took, I feel at least a little better knowing they were all taught the right way to do things before being issued a license to carry.

I'd never heard of that ballot toss before. I've probably had some tossed too, just can't remember for certain. Sometimes you just can't stomach either candidate.

I'd forgotten who was running against George. Turned out that Poshard was more conservative than Ryan, in the end. Old George spent money like it was growing on trees. After George Ryan's disgrace, in the next gubernatorial election the R candidate's name was Jim Ryan. Poor guy didn't have a chance with the surname Ryan. It was funny tho - his yard signs had the name JIM in 12" letters, and the name ryan in 2" letters. I think that even the staunch nnalert were afraid of that name. That's how Blago got his foot in the door.

My neighbor sold his property at a loss and moved to Texas over the "67%" tax increase. They came back for a visit, and his wife was in tears over the outcome. She said their expenses were actually higher in Texas when everything was considered. His income was lower, hours were longer, and she couldn't find a job in her field of work. Plus, they are horse people, and they were giving over $100 per bale for round bales to feed their horses. She wanted to stop the sale and move back, but he had to save face. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, I guess. Good neighbors. Hated to see them go, and I wish it had turned out better for them.

Term limits! Illinois is the poster child for the need for term limits. It seems like Madigan has been running the state since I've been a conscious voter. I'm sick of him, and I can't even vote against him. I hate politics, and I've thought more about it tonight than I usually think about it in a month, ha.

5 years (and 1200 miles ago) I walked into the the sheriff's office with $26, filled out a form with contact info for 3 "character witnesses", and within 10 days had my carry permit, which was good for 5 years, except I left the state.

(quoted from post at 18:04:00 11/16/13) Requesting statistics is in no way discriminatory in any way. It's what one does with those figures that maters. For instance , our ins co. commit age discrimination every time they write an auto policy for someone under 25 or over 70. Nothing wrong with wanting to know which people carry legally and which ones don't.Most all decisions in this world are a product of good accurate statistics.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but that line of reasoning fails Constitutionally. Auto insurance is not a Right enshrined in the BoR. No one has to register, take a course, get approved to exercise their freedom of speech or to choose to go to a church or not go to any church. Only when their is a REASON that can be clearly articulated should the gov't be able to suspend an individuals rights, ie- mental disease, alcoholism, felony record, history of violent behavior. That's it.

I agree with term limits. I hear people say that with term limits, unqualified people can and will be elected to office. My response to them is that we are $17 TRILLION in debt as a nation. If that's what qualified politicians do for future generations, give me the unqualified.

Are you sure that Jim Ryan ran for governor? I thought he ran for U.S. Senate against external_link. I remember the guy that ran for U.S. Senate was named Ryan, because I was still an Illinois resident at the time and got into an email battle with the Managing Editor from the Chicago Tribune over that. She had her staff take his sealed divorce records to a California judge and got them unsealed, and then told everyone that he was a diviant because he supposedly tried to get his former wife, Hollywood starlette, Geri Ryan, although I have no idea who she is or what she ever starred in, to join him at swing clubs while they were still married. The Managing Editor, and I forget her name, did that for former Tribune employee and then external_link campaign chairman, David Axelrod. I asked her why she was doing that to Ryan, and she responed that she felt that all Illinois residents should know who their candidates are. My next question to her was than why not do the same to external_link, whom had and has quite a record, just not published. Again, this was when he was running for U.S. Senator, years before president. We got into a pretty heated debate over her one sidedness, and I turned the emails over to others that then read them over the air on radio. I forget her name, but she is long since gone, and your state, my state, our nation, well....

Take care, and much good luck in the future and your travels.

Mark

Mark, you're probably right about Jim Ryan running for senate. I'll admit that I don't pay as close attention as I should. I have developed a defeatist attitude as I get older, politically speaking. I still think his Ryan surname defeated him.

Best wishes

Pretty sure Jim Ryan ran for governor against Blago and probably lost because of his name.

Jack Ryan ran against external_link for the senate.

This thread is not funny.. but makes me smile! DD214's for a firearms card? first off, I know a guy who spend 30 years in the navy and never touched anything that went bang, unless he dropped a kitchen utensil... hum... the commander in chief, attorney general, pentagon, veterans administration and medical industry in general are in the mindset that ALL active duty and former military personnel are prone to mental and emotional issues... so there's an invitation for big brother to come and visit!!!!
Shy town papers listing CCW carriers! That made me laugh! A few months ago a New York paper listed all the permits in a couple counties above the city... very few average Joe's... about a third city or state police, who don't want their addresses published- ever, TV and movie stars who didn't want to be identified as gun owners, and even bigger hypocrites, 'foreign dignitaries' or their 'personal security staff'... people who go to work in the UN every day to try disarming the entire planet... but not them or their families... so that paper and the state people who released the info ain't gunna do that again....