- Thread starter Spook
- Start date
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Truck, tractor, boat, atv, wheel chair, house, shop, process control panel, flashlight or what?
Lou from Wi.
Well-known Member
Sounds like an insufficiant GROUND!! LOU.
Had that problem a few years ago. Turned out to be a loose neutral strap to water pipe in basement. Had power company out a couple times and couldn"t figure it out. Went to replumb house with copper and wire was near shut off valve. Bumped it with my knee and lights flickered. Whenever washer, dryer, fridge or furnace cycled the lights would flicker or dim. Tightened clamp and no more trouble.
This would be a good time to check the integrity of the sealant around the outside conduit where it enters the house. By the meter. It should be tight but pliant. A nonhardening, nonshrinking petro electrical entrance sealant must be used to keep water from coming down the conduit and entering the circuit breaker panel where it can cause all sorts of problems, including what you're describing.
david - or
Member
Something is not right with the service drop to Mr. Reslls house. (Most likely a bad neutral connection). Connection to a water pipe should not affect how bright the lights are. Return current from unbalanced loads should be passing through the neutral wire back to the transformer center tap. It sounds like this neutral path has too high a resistance and current is taking an alternate path through the safety ground.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Wrong.
Neutral does not connect to the water pipe.
Neutral does not connect to the water pipe.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
We have discussed this dozens of times. Yet some people don't understand that the ground system is not supposed to carry the neutral current.
waltdavies
Member
Bummer you mean I have to rewire my house.
Walt
Walt
waltdavies
Member
They do in older homes if the water pipe is metal and buried.
Is the cable coming into the house buried? Is it aluminum cable? Sometimes a wire in the cable will burn out and cause the problems that you have.
If you can't find a faulty connection inside the entrance panel, check out the underground or overhead cables to the house. Power company might have to check out the underground; they have the equipment to check that out.
If you can't find a faulty connection inside the entrance panel, check out the underground or overhead cables to the house. Power company might have to check out the underground; they have the equipment to check that out.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The bond to earth immediately after the utility transformer is to hold the white insulated current carrying conductor to earth potential.
The bare ground is to hold metal chassis etc to earth potential.
The insulated white conductor carries just as much power and does just as much work as the difference between L1 and L2.
Why do you jackleg wirers try to tell the pros about electricity?
The bare ground is to hold metal chassis etc to earth potential.
The insulated white conductor carries just as much power and does just as much work as the difference between L1 and L2.
Why do you jackleg wirers try to tell the pros about electricity?
Hey, don't jump me! I'm not the 'expert' that said neutral is not tied to water pipe! That be you! I simply indicated that is IS, at service entrance where neutral & ground are bonded together. Just fess up that it was your wrong statement, not others. Impossible? Yes, probably, since you know everything about everything! Best we can hope for is some slippery words about water pipe not being a good ground or a change of subject and move away from neutral/ground bonding and on to who is to carry the current. You are a piece of work. Let's see the 'expert's' fancy foot work in side stepping. Can you match "slick-willy'?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Check again. I was replying to reslls. david-or had a good answer b.t.w.
o sheet? Sure could have fooled me!
Lectrical question - Spook 09:00:17 11/06/13 (22)
Re: Lectrical question - Spook 15:20:45 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Dick2 14:34:35 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Bill(Wis) 11:41:05 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - David G 11:01:52 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - reslls 10:49:19 11/06/13 (3)
Re: Lectrical question - buickanddeere 13:44:42 11/06/13 (1)
Re: Lectrical question - Waltdavies 14:11:01 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - david - or 12:35:18 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Mike (WA) 10:48:05 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Spook 10:00:36 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - LOU from Wi. 10:00:11 11/06/13 (7)
Re: Lectrical question - David G 10:02:23 11/06/13 (6)
Re: Lectrical question - buickanddeere 13:46:13 11/06/13 (5)
Re: Lectrical question - Waltdavies 14:09:39 11/06/13 (4)
Re: Lectrical question - JMOR 14:42:37 11/06/13 (3)
Re: Lectrical question - buickanddeere 15:25:20 11/06/13 (2)
Re: Lectrical question - JMOR 15:37:48 11/06/13 (1)
Re: Lectrical question - buickanddeere 15:59:51 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Chris(WA) 09:52:08 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - Bill(Wis) 09:13:26 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - FBH44 09:09:40 11/06/13 (0)
Re: Lectrical question - buickanddeere 09:09:26 11/06/13 (0)
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Sorry to deflate your self importance . Look under Clasic
instead of Modern View.
instead of Modern View.
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
Re: Lectrical question in reply to JMOR, 11-06-2013 14:42:37
The bond to earth immediately after the utility transformer is to hold the white insulated current carrying conductor to earth potential.
The bare ground is to hold metal chassis etc to earth potential.
The insulated white conductor carries just as much power and does just as much work as the difference between L1 and L2.
Why do you jackleg wirers try to tell the pros about electricity?
Note it says IN REPLY TO JMOR! You've had to much too much to drink already!!
The bond to earth immediately after the utility transformer is to hold the white insulated current carrying conductor to earth potential.
The bare ground is to hold metal chassis etc to earth potential.
The insulated white conductor carries just as much power and does just as much work as the difference between L1 and L2.
Why do you jackleg wirers try to tell the pros about electricity?
Note it says IN REPLY TO JMOR! You've had to much too much to drink already!!
orry about that to John M & B&D, both are being obstructionists! If you can't stand behind what you say, why try to weasel out of it later? Go to the classic view & IT CLEARLY SHOWS WHO & WHEN YOU ARE RESPONDING TO. iF YOU CAN'T GET YOUR POSTINGS CORRECT. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME FOR THAT? I know it will be someone!
!
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
Obstructionists? Not sure I understand why you would call me that, Im on your side, buddy!! In this case, he messed up, but Id bet he wont admit. Oh, and Im on classic and I can clearly see he responded to you. Sorry if I offended you.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
What ever Jmor and other jackleg wirers.don"t try to divert you ignorance of electricity.
The ground system, water pipes, well casing etc are not to carry neutral current. Get that through your thick heads.
The ground system, water pipes, well casing etc are not to carry neutral current. Get that through your thick heads.
formenwhogrow
Member
Yeah it could be. Neutral and ground are bonded in older panel boxes.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Study up on the national electrical code and get back to us. Why can't you accept an experts word for it?
If nothing has been messed with recently (nothing added or removed in the system) I would lean towards corrosion or a loose connection. My guess would be on a neutral especially if it occurs on multiple circuits. An IR thermometer can be very handy in finding loose connections as the arcing and resistance generate a heat signature. Might be worth shutting off the main and checking all connections in the panel. Good luck!
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
A bare ground goes to the water pipe, well casing, live stock water. Not an insulated current carrying conductor which is held to earth potential? Can you not understand that?
Then again you have no theory and only know what you "see".
h, I have a theory alright! That theory is that B&D (self proclaimed "expert" who says, " "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ) has a 2 inch thick skull, is obstinate, or just less than smart. Perhaps you could stand a little "seeing" yourself. Take a look at some of these materials from people who teach the NEC and you will clearly "see" that earth ground,(water pipe, included) enters the service entrance panel/meter base /or weather head and does in fact connect/bond to the neutral, thus connecting neutral to the water pipe!!!!! Come on man, just make your lips move & say, "I, B&D, the almighty of all things electric, was WRONG when I said neutral does not connect to water pipe.". Just can't do it can you? Are you on the YT forum because they laughed you off the Electrician's forum? Too much heat in the kitchen for you over there? Can't hold your own up against real experts? Only barely/sometimes able to up against tractor people?
http://fyi.uwex.edu/mrec/files/2011/04/W4.-Biesterveld-NEC-grounding-MREC2010.pdf
formenwhogrow
Member
I know what it was, all these jamoks are WRONG. What you got here is clearly a paranormal issue....a poltergeist. Call a priest and have an exorcism performed immediately!
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
ou still are not getting it because you just don't know. Neutral current is not supposed to flow to that ground rod, water pipe, well casing or livestock waterer.
What are you electrical credentials?
What do you do in newer electrical boxes with a separate floating bus bar for the neutral?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
With thanks to Farmerzeb
http://fyi.uwex.edu/mrec/files/2011/04/W4.-Biesterveld-NEC-grounding-MREC2010.pdf
Argue all you want with the NEC.
ey, Mr. Thick, I never made any statement of any kind about where neutral current is or isn't supposed to flow!!! Wake up! What I said & showed in the NEC training attachment, was the you were dead wrong in your statement that " neutral does not connect to water pipe". Now go ahead as you always do and are doing here & try to slip away from THE issue and derail the conversation off onto something else, hoping that you can slip out of the dumb A__ statement that you made when your mouth was in motion before your mind was in gear.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Read the electrical code and don't energize the ground system . Don't run neutral current on the ground system. Don't shock the livestock with waters, feeders, stalls and equipment that is elevated above earth potential . Don't be bonding the neutral bar to earth at remote panels. Use four wire to supply services instead of three wire.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
(quoted from post at 15:43:11 11/07/13)
FAILED! Not even a slippery diversion, just out right dancing around your wrong statement of, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." You either can't read or comprehend the code or just plain dense!
What else can I assist you with?
You still are not getting it. The bond to the water pipe, well casing, ground rod etc is with a bare copper wire. The neutral is a white insulated current carrying conductor. You don't know enough about electricity to tell the difference.
ou said, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ". Now I have clearly shown that there is a wire from the neutral bar in the panel (to which neutral connects) to the water pipe. Now if that doesn't connect neutral to the water pipe, pray tell, what the h3!! would it take? A 4x4 copper bar? I don't give a rat's patotie what color you make that wire cover, the fact remains that the neutral conductor coming into that service is in FACT connected to the damn water pipe. Up until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt & humored your obstinate attitude, but finally I'm realizing that you are just simply ignorant! Copper to copper & you claim "no connection". Beyond ignorant, just a plain DA! Everybody else understands the connection & you do too, but are desperately trying, unsuccessfully to save face for the DA statement that, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe."(quoted from post at 16:38:39 11/07/13)(quoted from post at 15:43:11 11/07/13)
FAILED! Not even a slippery diversion, just out right dancing around your wrong statement of, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." You either can't read or comprehend the code or just plain dense!
What else can I assist you with?
You still are not getting it. The bond to the water pipe, well casing, ground rod etc is with a bare copper wire. The neutral is a white insulated current carrying conductor. You don't know enough about electricity to tell the difference.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
(quoted from post at 19:01:38 11/07/13)ou said, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ". Now I have clearly shown that there is a wire from the neutral bar in the panel (to which neutral connects) to the water pipe. Now if that doesn't connect neutral to the water pipe, pray tell, what the h3!! would it take? A 4x4 copper bar? I don't give a rat's patotie what color you make that wire cover, the fact remains that the neutral conductor coming into that service is in FACT connected to the damn water pipe. Up until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt & humored your obstinate attitude, but finally I'm realizing that you are just simply ignorant! Copper to copper & you claim "no connection". Beyond ignorant, just a plain DA! Everybody else understands the connection & you do too, but are desperately trying, unsuccessfully to save face for the DA statement that, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe."(quoted from post at 16:38:39 11/07/13)(quoted from post at 15:43:11 11/07/13)
FAILED! Not even a slippery diversion, just out right dancing around your wrong statement of, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." You either can't read or comprehend the code or just plain dense!
What else can I assist you with?
You still are not getting it. The bond to the water pipe, well casing, ground rod etc is with a bare copper wire. The neutral is a white insulated current carrying conductor. You don't know enough about electricity to tell the difference.
Is neutral current supposed to flow through that bare ground wire from the water pipe to the panel bus bar ?
Not the topic of this thread, so if you wish to start a new topic, I will answer that for you, but being the know it all that you are, I'm really surprised that you have to ask. Guess I thought you might know more than you do?(quoted from post at 19:36:57 11/07/13)(quoted from post at 19:01:38 11/07/13)ou said, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ". Now I have clearly shown that there is a wire from the neutral bar in the panel (to which neutral connects) to the water pipe. Now if that doesn't connect neutral to the water pipe, pray tell, what the h3!! would it take? A 4x4 copper bar? I don't give a rat's patotie what color you make that wire cover, the fact remains that the neutral conductor coming into that service is in FACT connected to the damn water pipe. Up until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt & humored your obstinate attitude, but finally I'm realizing that you are just simply ignorant! Copper to copper & you claim "no connection". Beyond ignorant, just a plain DA! Everybody else understands the connection & you do too, but are desperately trying, unsuccessfully to save face for the DA statement that, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe."(quoted from post at 16:38:39 11/07/13)(quoted from post at 15:43:11 11/07/13)
FAILED! Not even a slippery diversion, just out right dancing around your wrong statement of, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." You either can't read or comprehend the code or just plain dense!
What else can I assist you with?
You still are not getting it. The bond to the water pipe, well casing, ground rod etc is with a bare copper wire. The neutral is a white insulated current carrying conductor. You don't know enough about electricity to tell the difference.
Is neutral current supposed to flow through that bare ground wire from the water pipe to the panel bus bar ?
(quoted from post at 05:36:57 11/08/13)(quoted from post at 19:01:38 11/07/13)ou said, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ". Now I have clearly shown that there is a wire from the neutral bar in the panel (to which neutral connects) to the water pipe. Now if that doesn't connect neutral to the water pipe, pray tell, what the h3!! would it take? A 4x4 copper bar? I don't give a rat's patotie what color you make that wire cover, the fact remains that the neutral conductor coming into that service is in FACT connected to the damn water pipe. Up until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt & humored your obstinate attitude, but finally I'm realizing that you are just simply ignorant! Copper to copper & you claim "no connection". Beyond ignorant, just a plain DA! Everybody else understands the connection & you do too, but are desperately trying, unsuccessfully to save face for the DA statement that, ""Neutral does not connect to the water pipe."(quoted from post at 16:38:39 11/07/13)(quoted from post at 15:43:11 11/07/13)
FAILED! Not even a slippery diversion, just out right dancing around your wrong statement of, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." You either can't read or comprehend the code or just plain dense!
What else can I assist you with?
You still are not getting it. The bond to the water pipe, well casing, ground rod etc is with a bare copper wire. The neutral is a white insulated current carrying conductor. You don't know enough about electricity to tell the difference.
Is neutral current supposed to flow through that bare ground wire from the water pipe to the panel bus bar ?
Current is not supposed to flow thru the ground wire but can if the neutral is messed up between the main breaker panel and the utility company's transformer.
Lets take this thread out of neutral and put it in drive?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The neutral is a working current carrying conductor that is held
to earth potential via a bond to earth 1st thing at the utity
service .
Running ground and neutral in parallel will flow neutral
current on the ground system. This raises the ground system
above earth potential. This causes shocks to livestock,
problems on telephones , alarm systems etc.
Saying neutral and ground is the same is like saying the hot
and cold water taps at the sink are identical because the water
comes from the same well.
to earth potential via a bond to earth 1st thing at the utity
service .
Running ground and neutral in parallel will flow neutral
current on the ground system. This raises the ground system
above earth potential. This causes shocks to livestock,
problems on telephones , alarm systems etc.
Saying neutral and ground is the same is like saying the hot
and cold water taps at the sink are identical because the water
comes from the same well.
Daryl in PA
Member
where's the popcorn.......this is getting good
nd some how all those words are supposed to deflect attention to your incorrect statement that "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe"?
Maybe you like 'the water pipe connects to neutral' better. I will remind you, however, that the connecting wire is not oneway........it is bi-directional. We have clearly established that the connection is in fact present. You even admit as much with your question, "Is neutral current supposed to flow through that bare ground wire from the water pipe to the panel bus bar ?". You wouldn't be asking if current is supposed to flow in a nonexistent wire would you? Come on, you can get those words past you lips if you really try. Just slowly say, "I the God almighty of all things electrical, was WRONG when I said neutral does not connect to the water pipe, I see now that there is a copper connection between the water pipe and the neutral connected panel buss bar, as shown in the drawings". See how easy?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Since you don't have the theory nor work in the trade. I'll spell it out. A bare ground wire is connected from the water pipe/ground rod/well casing to provide the bond to neutral . To hold the neutral to near earth potential at the first service.
o "theory" is needed fellow (& if it were, I have no doubt that I possess more theory than you ever will) to determine a wire to pipe, wire to wire connection!! Despite all this, you still contend, " "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." ......unbelievable!!
OK, lets play your little game. We have neutral entering the service entrance panel/disconnect and attaching to the bonded buss bar. We have a wire coming from the water pipe & entering the service entrance panel/disconnect and attaching to the bonded buss bar. Thus it is perfectly clear, to anyone, even a child, that there is a connection between neutral and the water pipe. Maybe you need an Ohmmeter to convince yourself. Let us continue, with a name game. This neutral wire entering the service entrance panel/disconnect and attaching to the bonded buss bar, continues on out of the panel and attaches to the water pipe, but since I changed the color/insulation as it passes through the buss bar, I think I will change the name, too. I think I will now call it an "earthing wire" or a "grounding wire" or whatever pops out of the blue, but the electrical continuity isn't destroyed by the name change, the copper connection is still present and wouldn't you know it, NEUTRAL IS STILL CONNECTED TO THE WATER PIPE!! What a revelation, huh!!!
So, in conclusion, the B&D statement, "Neutral does not connect to the water pipe." was wrong then and is still WRONG now!
......and I have no doubt that you will continue your fairy tale of the pipe & neutral not being connected. Just keep you head buried in the sand or wherever it is stuck. You are beyond learning.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
b&d
You better behave or your wife will leave you at home when she takes her trip abroad. :wink:
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I thought I had shown considerable restraint trying to explain electrical theory and code to a layman.
Still deciding on the trip. Those 10 day Viking cruises on the Rhine look good too. May have to make several trips to Europe. The 23andme DNA results found a whole clan related to us in Scotland near Loch Ness.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Are you trying to gently break the news to the YT members that you're related to the Loch Ness Monster??????????? :lol:
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
That eldest lad of mine probably is. The other two are fine
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