(quoted from post at 19:21:21 10/29/13)
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13) Rich, I live an a very heavily Amish area and I hear the same complaints about the roads. There is no way under Gods blue sky that an 800 lbs horse and 400 lbs buggy do anywhere near the damage to the road an 80K lbs tractor-trailer do, or a 40K tractor and 12K gallon liquid manure spreader.
Well compairing apples to oranges you would be correct but when thinking critically about it, no, you are not correct. For example, the 80K trucks dont ever come down the rural roads that the Amish run so how can you compair them? Simple, you cant. But if you look at the better built roads that the trucks run vs. the township roads, you can easily see the heavier damage from the horses and buggies. Fair compairison? Not really because everybody knows the main roads are built heavier but would there still be damage from the horses if they did run them? Of course there would and we know that because we see it where the horses cross the main roads, the damage goes through the intersections. But like I said, not a fair compairison because if you flipped the use, the rural road would get messed up from the heavy truck more than the horse wrecking the main road. The difference is, the truck paid taxes that pays for the roads....
[b:e8f287b17a]Happens here all the time Rich, the culverts I mean, And the 65-80K trucks are going up and down County and Town roads and we have to add in the the trucks with permits for 102-107K are using some of those roads too. What you see on the roads, at least what we see here, is scuff marks from the shoes and steel wheels. That's the damage.[/b:e8f287b17a]
[i:e8f287b17a]Well Im not sure why your area of NY has such unusual and substandard road building procedures that the culverts get screwed "all the time". My initional thought is you are more than streaching the truth in the matter but thats just a hunch, I readily admit it could well be a fluke that the roads are substandard in your area. It sure dont happen here though and I have never even seen it so its clearly a non issue.[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
The farmer doesn't pay any road taxes for that articulated tractor that tears up the pavement or crushes culverts
I admit I dont get out much, I only put 20,000 miles a year on my work truck and 5,000-10,000 miles on my motorcycles. Call me a homebody if you must but I have to say, I have never, EVER seen anything like you discribe. I have seen the blacktop damaged on the edge of the road when a tractor (normal tractor, not even a huge articulated one) drove on the edge of the road before the shoulder was put in or from turning off the road into a field. The road damaged on the edge is very rare and from a farmer driveing on it before the road was done, thats his fault. As for going into a field, that damage is expected and now the county puts in approaches to prevent it. Crushed culverts? Puhleese, never seen one. So with that in mind, we can simply set aside your assertions.
[b:e8f287b17a]Refer to para above on the culverts. The State just had to do a 3 mile repair near me on a State road strictly because of what I'm talking about- BTO with equipment tearing up the road. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it's not common up here. So with that in mind, we can simply set aside your assertions.[/b:e8f287b17a]
[i:e8f287b17a] I dont mean to belittle 3 miles and it sure sounds bad (and likely preventable by the farmer) but a mere 3 miles wrecked would be a blessing. We have HUNDREDS of miles here that need fixing. Whats odd though, is you clain the Amish dont hurt anything and place blame at the feet of the BTOs but in real life, its the opposite that is occurring. There is simply no way in gods green earth I could be going around and seeing the damage from the horse and buggies and no damage from the huge tractors, I have already told the damage that I HAVE seen from tractors and it simply pales in comparison to the horses.[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
and they darn sure don't go out and scrape the 4" of liquid manure and mud off the highway where they exit the fields.
Oh yes they do. If they dont, they county sends a crew out and does it and sends a bill. The sheriff warns them first though, its not like the county has a crew sitting at the shop waiting for a call so they can boost revenue, they really dont want to do it at all but some times they have to. I learned that lesson way back in high school when some friends were mud bogging after school every day and we got a little visit from Barny Fife and he made sure we knew exactally where the bear does his buisness in the woods. As for the liquid manure, if farmer ever has 4 inches of slop on the road, he has bigger things to worry about than paying for the bobcat time, he is gonna be getting a visit from the alphabet people and they will be sampling ditches and water runoff. He wont have to worry long though, he will be out of business soon. Well, at least without an insurance carrier after that massive payout.
[b:e8f287b17a]Again, and remember I've been tasked with forcing farmers to clean their crap up, it happens here all the time. Nobody gets billed for the clean up here. At worst they get a ticket which is dismissed at court. It's like pulling teeth to get the BTOs to do anything about their mud and manure.[/b:e8f287b17a]
[i:e8f287b17a]Well I remember your past career but what you are not bringing forth is WHY your county is choosing to be so lax on enforcement of 4 inches of slop or WHY your states Department of Natural Resources is choosing to ignore dangerous and blatant violations of the law. No matter though, there is nothing I can do to change that situation and it certainly has nothing to do with the Amish wrecking roads. Seperate issues and pointing at other peoples bad actions in order to excuse peoples bad actions is wrong. Thats being an apologist (but you of course you know that).[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
I know some people just get all riled up about the Amish not having to license their buggies and wagons, but if you want to go that route then you'd better stand by to find a law saying you have to license and register all our farm tractors and implements.
While I not big on making laws just to make them, in fact Im heavily against it but in this case, if its felt that its fair for everybody that if the Amish starting kicking in a fair share for the roads they use and abuse, I wouldnt have a huge problem with making farmers doing the same thing for tractors and impliments. The only small problem is, farmers have case history of being allowed to use the roads for farming needs, just using the roads for travel has always been a "pay to play" deal. Like I said though, if the farmers have to kick in to make things fair because the Amish start paying, Im OK with that.
[b:e8f287b17a]Wow, so more taxes are the answer?[/b:e8f287b17a]
[i:e8f287b17a]That was your take on the situation, not mine. I clearly stated Im not usually in favor of making laws just for the sake of making them but if you feel it would be fair to the farmers because the Amish should be paying for the use of the roads, I dont have a huge problem with it. YOU brought up farmers would be came after for tractors and impliments. I dont have a huge problem with it because simply asking people to pay their fair share of taxes is OK with me. Wouldnt you agree?[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
Maybe it would be better to look around and figure out how much the Amish are paying in school taxes for schools they never use or in land taxes for social services and other taxpayer funded services they never make use of, all while taking over and putting back into production marginal farm land the English can't make a living off of.
Oh, this is my favorite, the old "taxes ala-carte" arguement. Count me in! I would love, Love, LOVEEEEE to only pay taxes on the services that I use. No arguement from me, of course thats not what we are talking about (or were). We are talking about the taxes that Amish dont pay, that was the question on the table and I clearly stated it (if I do say so myself).
[b:e8f287b17a]It's directly related to what you're talking about. You say the Amish, or me and my horses for that matter, should have to pay a road tax, to pay for the up keep of the roads. Of course you forget that the registration and licensing fees don't come anywhere near even close to paying the interest on what it costs to maintain the roads. That money comes out of the general fund just like everything else. If we were depending on license and registration fees to pay for our highways we'd all be driving on dirt. The only taxes I'm seeing the Amish not pay related to this discussion is registration fees, which is a tax so to speak[/b:e8f287b17a].
[i:e8f287b17a]Well thats the problem, you dont SEE the Amish failing to pay their fair share, dispite people like me clearly explaining it. Its more than just registration fees, way more but you are refusing to look at it and continue to be an apologist for them. Then you start going on about the Englishmen being the bad guys and by defination, that makes you a bigot. Sorry, but dispite my usual rule to stay out of these conversations, I ended up speaking up because I just not OK with that.[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
Amish aren't saints and they aren't evil either.
I dont disagree with that, no different than the English.
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
They're just people with a little different lifestyle
Again, I agree.
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
that isn't hurting anyone else, unlike some English that are most certainly hurting other folks.
And there you go, off the deep end....
Everybody knows you are an Amish apologist but you dont have to make it sound like the Amish do nothing wrong and harm nobody because its just not true. You also dont have to make it sould like the English are the only ones that hurt others, because it also is just not true. We dont need to get into all the crimes and ethics issues that the Amish not only let happen but seemingly approve of, do we?
[b:e8f287b17a]Are the Amish trying to make laws restricting our rights? Are the Amish demanding our schools change or that we be taxed to support se x changes for inmates or that we do away with cars, oil, guns, Christianity? Are the Amish actually affecting you one little bit or are they just an irritant because they don't drive $60K F350's and hang out at the bar trying to pick up local ho's? That's the kind of hurt I'm taking about. Hurting our society.[/b:e8f287b17a]
[i:e8f287b17a]I hear my Amish friends talking about a ton of things that would restrict mine and others rights. Are they doing anything about it? No, thats not how they operate (and you know that). Am I doing anything different than what they are? No, Im just talking as well, so we are in parity.[/i:e8f287b17a]
(quoted from post at 06:26:58 10/29/13)
It comes down to bigotry and people need to see that.
Ironic you say that given the context of your post....
