O.T. What would you have done??

This is just to see if we did the "normal" thing or not.
For many years we have been taking dad at least once a month to visit his cousins, G and E, about 90 miles away. Two years ago E passed away. We have been continuing to take dad to see G regularly. They had always told my brother and I that they considered us the children they never had. He lived at home alone, but got care delivered in from the County. One day, G told us that he had an appointment with an attorney we needed to take him to. At the attorney he signed a transfer on death title to his house to my brother and I.
He passed away last January. At the meeting with the attorney it was discovered he had a will that was 20 years old. The will left everything, divided equally, between the church, a family friend named Larry, and two of E"s nieces.
The nieces have since passed away. And the limited assets he had other than the house, were taken by the state for recovery of the cost of his care. However someone in the state goofed and failed to put a lien on the house. The house was transferred to my brother and I debt free. The transfer on death title moved the house outside of his estate, and was not subjected to the will.
At the meeting the attorney he suggested making the house a four-way split. Between myself and my brother, the church, and Larry. We could also simply allow the state to remove everything of value from the house, take possession of it and sell it and split the profits between myself and my brother.
The choice comes down to about 17,500 for the four-way split, about 35,000 split between myself and my brother.
Now the question, which choice would you have taken?

The $17,500 is way more than you had before. Why not "share" with all....everyone is happy. The other option....others get slighted and you and your brother (possibly) come off as greedy. You're pretty lucky anyway because if the state hadn't screwed up...no one would have gotten anything.

These types of situations can be looked at in many ways. Was Larry an active part of your cousin's life in his later years? This is the way I think I would look at it--- What was the last wishes of you relative? That is the way I would go at it, may make you look greedy, but it appears it was his latest wishes for you and the brother to have the house.

(quoted from post at 07:40:31 04/19/13) This is just to see if we did the "normal" thing or not.
For many years we have been taking dad at least once a month to visit his cousins, G and E, about 90 miles away. Two years ago E passed away. We have been continuing to take dad to see G regularly. They had always told my brother and I that they considered us the children they never had. He lived at home alone, but got care delivered in from the County. One day, G told us that he had an appointment with an attorney we needed to take him to. At the attorney he signed a transfer on death title to his house to my brother and I.
He passed away last January. At the meeting with the attorney it was discovered he had a will that was 20 years old. The will left everything, divided equally, between the church, a family friend named Larry, and two of E"s nieces.
The nieces have since passed away. And the limited assets he had other than the house, were taken by the state for recovery of the cost of his care. However someone in the state goofed and failed to put a lien on the house. The house was transferred to my brother and I debt free. The transfer on death title moved the house outside of his estate, and was not subjected to the will.
At the meeting the attorney he suggested making the house a four-way split. Between myself and my brother, the church, and Larry. We could also simply allow the state to remove everything of value from the house, take possession of it and sell it and split the profits between myself and my brother.
The choice comes down to about 17,500 for the four-way split, about 35,000 split between myself and my brother.
Now the question, which choice would you have taken?

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Having come up on the short end of the stick once or twice myself, I would keep it between you and your brother.

i'm no lawyer but everything i've ever heard says will with latest date is the one you go by as long as it was properly witnessed and or filed.
if the other parties are friends or your church and you want to share,thats your choice,not theirs.

Some things you did not make clear. If he transferred the title to the house to you and your brother, you have title and it BELONGS to you and your brother. Did you and brother pay property taxes on the house?
I mean have you or your brother BEEN paying the taxes?

Not sure about "transfer on death" deeds- we don't have such an animal here. But if the deed puts it outside the probate estate, end of story- the house is yours. The old will just applies to the probate estate of the decedent, and folks can do anything they want with their property while living. Legalities aside, it seems pretty clear that G had changed his mind about how his estate should be distributed, as evidenced by his conveying the house to you.

The will would still be operative as to the rest of his estate- vehicles, financial accounts, etc.

The will is 20 years old so most likely not his last wish - sounds like he wanted you and your brother to have the house. Also, sounds like you and your brother now own the house. So, if the house is yours and you feel your relative was close to the church, you could donate some of your proceeds to the church if you wanted to and it made you feel better about the whole deal. Also gives you a tax deduction. As for "Larry", if he wanted Larry to have a share he would have made it clear. They may not have even been in touch much after 20 years.

If you feel he was in his right mind when you took him to make the updated will (to include not being coerced by you, your brother, or anyone else), then enjoy owning the house and doing with it what you will.

If the Church finds out about it, they"ll whine
till they get something..most church"s are money
grubbing!

I would strongly consider his last wishes to split it between the 2 of you, if he was of sound mind at the time.

Lot of little details could change my feelings on that.

Paul

I would honor his real last wishes and split it 50/50 with my brother as he wished.
Any other split will be opening up a real hornet next. You say Larry and the Church, but his old will says and 2 nieces. Just because they have passed on, how about their heirs? And if you want to follow the old will, then you and your brother should not get one penny, since you nor your brother were not listed. Therefore, go with his latest wish, or the original will, but anything else is just a bunch of horse trading, grubbing lawyer trying to shift something to church, or his (maybe) buddy Larry.
Tom

don't be surprised if the state comes for their cut first. I have the same setup and the state gets their payback before anyone as it was recorded as a part of the Medicaid program.

it sounds like its already taken of, tod.. transfered on death and you and your brother already have it, also sounds like lawyer is trying to play your sympathys then he also gets a cut were now he doesnt.

Technically, you have profited at the expense of the tax payers of your state. After all, if I read between the lines of your post, it was their tax dollars that paid for your uncles' medical care. I'll leave it at that....

It's obvious---and legally facilitated---tht he wanted you and your brother to have the house (or value of the house). Take it.

I agree that if your Uncle wanted you and your Brother to have it, that is what you need to do and enjoy it with what ever you decide to do with it. If he wanted the church and Larry to have 1/4th of the house, he would have set it up that way. Little surprised at the lawyer trying to talk you into changing things, but then he would get to make money writing things up different. Take it and be thankful you were thought of. Good luck - Bob

By the way, you may not be out of the woods on the Medicaid deal- If someone transfers property but gets Medicaid, gumment can get a lien if the property was sold less than 5 years before the patient started getting Medicaid (its called the "look back" rule). You'll likely hear from them. . .

I'd follow Dad's cousins wishes, split it between you and your brother. But you may have to contend with the state/medicaid/etc. a bit. No one else matters, or he'd have set it up that wy.

Do what you will feel good about doing. Don't make it about the money. Or treat them as you would like to be treated.

My Dad told his in-laws to have them give Grandpa's money to the grandkids, because everyone in his generation had everything they needed, while the 20 and 30 years olds had kids and mortgages.
Do what feels right.
SDE

Any property transfered within 2 years of his death is going to be subject to Medicare reimbursement. So even thought there is not a lien showing at the court house when you go to transfer the deed.

The only way you maybe off the hook is if the house was never in "G"s name. He may have been the survivorship owner after "E" died. He would have been the real owner just had not file a new deed. Which he would not have had to do.

So did it transfer to you and your brother Directly from "G" or from "E" to "G" to you???

The old will is of little concern. Your bigger concern is the state over the Medicare issue. They will pay hard ball on this if they find out. That means a large penalty for you and your brother. I do mean LARGE could be as much as 30%.

it was not medicare it was a Wisconsin state run, in home care program. a person came in daily, made his lunch, put something for dinner together and put it in the fridge. Cleaned house as needed and took his laundry to be done.

You maybe alright but check with a lawyer that has nothing to do with the original deal. I would hate to see you get hammered down the road six months or something. Many of the state programs mirror the Federal Medicare program. With everything computer driven these days there maybe something to tip the deal down the road.

The split with the old will would be a personal one. I could argue it either way. I guess I would think who needed the money the worst??? I have been luck an I really do not "NEED" anyone else's money. So would I "want" it??? That is where it is up to you and you only. There is not really any moral or ethical issue either way.

I think I would have went with it the way you did. Your dads cousins intensions seem clear. Assuming he was in his right mind, he would have known that giving the house to you and your brother would have less in the will to be given to the others. Maybe the death transfer was his way of avoiding having to make a new will and he knew the state would take everything else of value from his estate, effectivly leaving nothing for the others.

I wouldnt sweat the state comming back for the house. If it was an issue, the lawyer would have brought that up, rather than the 4-way split. That or the lawyer was an idiot. Its doubtful the state "goofed" and if they did, Im not sure if they will come back after the fact, although I have nothing to back that up. If you want to know the look back period that WI follows, I think most would be able to be found online so you dont have to draw attention to the situation just to find out. Here is one link I found. http://www.emhandbooks.wisconsin.gov/meh-ebd/policy_files/17/meh_17.3_look_back_period.htm

Here is the problem with your assumption: It was not Medicaid. It was or appears to be a state or multiple County run program called Western Wisconsin Cares. and he was never committed or institutionalized in a care facility in any way, he lived at home until being hospitalized until his death.

(quoted from post at 18:22:58 04/20/13) Here is the problem with your assumption: It was not Medicaid.

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And here is [b:bfa50b2c87][i:bfa50b2c87]YOUR[/b:bfa50b2c87][/i:bfa50b2c87] problem, I didnt assume anything, I based my reply on information you provided in [b:bfa50b2c87]your[/b:bfa50b2c87] post. I merely posted a link so you could gather some more info as it relates to your situation... in a way that you could do it anonymously. I mean, why start making calls and getting people asking questions about the situation if you can just do some reading? If Im wrong, Im sorry, I will take your word that its not medicaid if that makes you feel better.

(quoted from post at 18:22:58 04/20/13) It was or appears to be a state or multiple County run program called Western Wisconsin Cares.

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All right, now we have usable information. http://www.wwcares.org/ Then when you look in the "about us" section you see that WWC was formed from a grant from Wisconsins Department of Health and Family Services. You will also read further and see that the program continues to exist from the Wisconsin [b:bfa50b2c87]Medicaid[/b:bfa50b2c87] budget (which means that its a Medicaid program funded by money from Wisconsin Medicaid-which recieves the bulk of its money from the federal goverment, but thats another story for another day). Know what that means? It means that your dads cousin was in fact on Medicaid afterall...

(quoted from post at 18:22:58 04/20/13)and he was never committed or institutionalized in a care facility in any way, he lived at home until being hospitalized until his death.

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I never said he was and it wouldnt be relevant even if it was the case. Weather he was an in house resident or recieving some at home care makes no difference at all, the advice is still the same.

Now that we know about the care he received and from whom, its pretty easy to look up what care it is and where the funding is from. In this case (and keep in mind Im just going by the info [b:bfa50b2c87]you[/b:bfa50b2c87] are providing), we can see that your dads cousin was on a Wisconsin Medicaid program administered by WWC and they recieve money in part or whole from Wisconsins Department of Health Services. You can view their website here. http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/

So you can do nothing about the house issue (like I would do), or you can read up on the look back rules that Wisconsin has with some of the links I provided or even find your own, or you can start calling or stopping in to visit with these people that are in charge. Its your call, none of us here have anything to gain or lose no matter what way this ends up. We are all just making comments in a public forum after being invited to... by [i:bfa50b2c87]you[/i:bfa50b2c87]. I wish you the best of luck!

I would take your advice as good advice,,, I ran across the same thing when my Bro passed away. I had to get my Mom to change her will as my Bro was listed in her will to receive any money she had for his care at her passing...

I can guarantee ya her original will can not be found a copy maybe but not the original.... Medicare put a lean on my Bro's estate he had nuttin so they can only hope he inherits something...

I don't blame Medicare for going after what they can...