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O/T Metric vs Standard Rant for Today!

J

John B.

Well-known Member
Ok I've been off work too long and just sitting around the house and have too much time on my hands. So here's my rant for today

When I was in my last 3 years of grade school they were just hitting on teaching us the metric system. I should say they introduced it to us. I believe it's much easier.
Any way my point is why do we have signs saying 100 miles/62 kilometers or a quart 32oz of liquid vs liter 0.946.
I don't need to be told that a container contains 0.946 of a liter when you never taught me what a liter is. It's like telling me what 9'4-3/4" is when you never taught me what an inch or foot measures out to be.

Example I love is the 2-Liter bottle of soda is very popular and no one ever questions it being metric. It's just two liters and we learned it quite quickly.
My beef is why dont' we just convert and be done.

I think that measurement or distance is where everyone has the biggest problem. They can't visualize what a kilometer is because they were never taught. But if odometers only read metric imagine how fast we would catch on. Yes new cars do have the option of standard or metric display but how many people actually use the metric display? Not too many from whom I've talked to, just because it's not needed and hard to relate to others in conversation.
They say the expense to switch over would be tremendous such as in road signs, building trade which I understand. My argument is we don't have much to gain as an individual but more so as a country if we switched.
Comparing the two systems we now have is where most have problems. They're told a kilometer is less than a mile. We can visualize a mile but not a kilometer yet.
I have taught myself the metric system and I know there are conversion tables but there's one conversion we haven't taken yet and when we do there won't be a need to compare one to the other.
 
How come Metric sockets have "standard' drive sizes? I guess so you dont have duplicates of everything, but then again, why do we need metric?
 
I taught that many years in school. The cost of converting everything and replacing ALL necessary signs would be very, very expensive. What next? The Euro!!!
 
You are correct, the metric system is much better, I often use the metric side of my tape measure. It is much easier to divide distance into equal increments. I think we are slowly changing, but there should be more push. I think the auto industry in mostly metric, but I maybe wrong, my vehicles are new enough I don't have to work on them. It would be easier to export more products if we were all metric like the rest of the world. But, many Americans don't want any change, look at the controversy over stopping Saturday mail delivery! Also lobbyists have way too much control.
 
Slip up to Canada, and you can use both Metric and the other one. About sockets and wrenches, I have a stock of both. That is a bit of a pain. I can look at a nut or bolt and say it's a 7/8th or what ever, but on the newer stuff it's a toss up if it's Metric or not. Tiny bit different and the wrench/socket may or maynot fit right.

Get this, in aviation, here in Canada, we order our fuel in liters. The capacity of the tanks is expressed in gallons ( US or imperial) and we calculate the burn in pounds. Talk about looking for a problem. Actuallly, for a good but scary read Google [b:c981cfa244]Gimli Glider[/b:c981cfa244]. A Boing 767 crew didn't quite get the conversion factors right.

Sw
 
I agree with you 100%, George!

On the other hand, I can switch back and forth between the systems as needed without a second thought, I don"t know why it is so difficult for some!
 
Untill the constrution/lumber industry makes the switch, we will have both. It seems inevetable, but will take more than a genoration to change. I have a hard time think in metric, but if you are useing wrenchs , if a 10m is to big then the 9m is the next logical pick. seems simple, eh! Bruce from half arzed metric Can.
 
The worst was a bus I drove. Ford had switched to metric but Blue Bird (the body maker) had not. You never knew whether it would be metric or SAE when you went to take it off. It just depended on who had touched it last. I've got both around here - all of the old stuff is SAE but the newer vehicles are metric. Not that you could work on them or anything.
 


My complaint is having to buy two sets of
tools. You spend a life time tooling a machine
shop , then every thing becomes obsolete.

george
 
Not a bad idea to just use one system or the other, but how would you like using kilometers when driving in the midwest where just about every road is a mile apart?
 
A number of years ago I worked a summer on a mission construction project in Europe. They had only metric tape measures, caught on quickly and it was easy. When you try to think and convert them back and forth, is when it becomes confusing and irratable.
 
I just googled it, and the only other countries in the world that use inches & pounds are Liberia and Burma! Do we want to be in the same category as them?
 
As a physics teacher I used metric most of the time but I never taught my students to convert from one to the other. It is sort of like learning a foreign language. If you have to translate from one language to another, it is way to slow. Just use either one or the other, or even both but don't translate.

Actually, I did have them figure out how many meters were in a mile. To do that, I told them, you just need to ask a person who runs track.
 
Great Subject. I never ran into Metric stuff until about 1984. I was already 40 years old, so hard to learn Metric. Most of my equipment is still Inch"s. I can look at a nuts and see if I need a 9/16 or a 15/16 wrench. I made a big chart hanging in my shop with every 64th, and what the conversion is. Even made it for others to understand. Example. 48/64-24/32-12/16-6/8-3/4-0.75, and the 19MM would be listed before that line. So if it is a metric bolt I take three or four wrench of about the right size. Oh Yes still wrong most of the time. And being a pilot there is another set of number I have to know.
 
As far as the actual metric system goes, why should we switch? Both our system, and the metric system, as far as many parts of them go, are base ten systems so there really sin't that much difference. The main differences come in when you get into things like volume and area measurements, etc. Think about this, how many farmers on here can tell you exactly how many acres they have, but they don't have a clue how many hectares they have. To do a full changeover would mean that eventyally EVERYTHING would have to be changed. Properties would have to be resurveyed to insure the area was given in the correct form, package containers changed to handle the 'new' amounts, etc, etc. In other words asking us to do a full changeover would be no more different than asking the countries that currently use only the metric system to change everthing they are doing. Thing is they are no more ready to do that than this country is to make a complete change over....Further why should the US, a world power, change out our system to match theirs, why can't they change theirs to match ours????? Personally I learned our system, and have absolutely no problem using it, and, over the years, have had to learn parts of the metric system simply due to the influx of goods from other countries using it.

In the end the US has bent over backwards to try making the rest of the world happy with us. When we were a super power, we pretty much set the standard wether the rest of the world wanted to follow or not. Now that our governmental policies, our environmental policies, our unions, and the general GIMME attitude of so much of the population has killed that position, that's all changed. Now we're expected to simply accept intrusion on our rights, values, language, and it seems even our system of measure, by other countries and simply learn to like it. Personally I do not like it, and as George stated below, IF I want to actually learn metric I'll move to a oountry that uses it......
 
Look at all of the countries that use the metric system and answer the same question about more than two or three of them......
 
I have always had a problem with fractions, to me the Metric system is much simpler. When I bought my first vehicle I bought a set of standard tools. A couple years later I bought an import, so I bought a set of metric tools, no problem. And that's how it has been for years. What fans my feathers is having to drag out both sets to work on one vehicle which has both!
 
I know what you mean, try carrying around two full sets of tools on a truck. My beef, beyond that, is that standard fasteners typically use either an SAE or USS hex size (ie in the case of nuts, either standard or 'barn door nuts' as I call them). That said standard means just that and rarely do you find anything but standard in use unless it's in a special application. Throw in the standard course and fine pitches and your left with 4 choices when it comes to a typical fastener.

On the other hand I can take a metric threaded fastener and have three or four bolts of the same thread size sitting there and all of them have different head sizes. Now there's one bolt size that might take a 15, 16, 17, or 18 mm hex wrench to take it loose. Throw in the fine and course pitch and now ther's a choice of 8 different fasteners. Where does this make anything easier when you've got a machine torn down and two or more of the the hex sizes of the heads and the two pitches are used indiscriminately throughout the machine, for the same 'sized' fastener????? I've never figured it out, is the size based on where it's made, the whim of the engineer, just plain stupidity, or a combination of them all????
 
Jimmy Carter, was a degreed engineer, chemical, not an easy one to obtain as engineering goes. He made a huge effort to get the U.S. to convert to the metric system. This aggravated some and probably cost our economy in the short run but would have paid off long run and would have make the world a better place. The U.S. would now be more competitive in the world markets, had we converted and the cost to change goes up with the passage of time. Meanwhile we are missing out on all the efficiencies offered by standardizing on meteric.
 
No Ford signed into law the Metric Conversion Act of 1976 .I have the cover of an old Craftsman catalog to prove it. Says: Now that the President [Ford sitting in chair with pen ]has signed "IT'S TIME TO TOOL UP ON YOUR METRICS" Having just spend thousands on tools including micrometers I vomited heavily. Good thing was I worked for a Harley dealer and there was no metric hardware.
 
As far as making US more competitive in world markets & help exports, I think NOT. We have plenty of capability to manufacture metric and if you ever work on any modern US vehicle, you will soon learn that! It is the cost of US labor/benefits and regulation & dollar exchange rate that kills out exports & invited imports. It is not metric driven. The 1976 Metric Conversion act was pushed hard, but between the cost involved and non-acceptance, soon all those metric speed limit signs on Texas highways were removed & replaced.
You are beating a dead horse. If it meant greater profits, lower costs, it would have already been done. When it means greater profits, it will happen & should not be mandated by a government. Don't we have enough regulation as it is? :cry:
 
We have Pres. Ronald Regan to thank for why we haven't converted to the Metric system (which is about the only thing I have against his administration).
 
I too am a degreed engineer, electrical NCSU'65. I hope this doesn't put me in the same category as Jimmy Carter. With that said, I have worked with the metric system for over 50 years and I still don't like it.

However, about 30 years ago I replaced the bearings in my 1940 Farmall M transmission. Imagine my surprise when I found that the bearings were sized in metric dimensions.
 
Ford signed The Metric Conversion Act of 1975.[not '76] Reagan disbanded the US metric Board by cancelling funding but tranferred metrics to Dept.of Commerce .George H W Bush ordered all goverment offices converted to metric. 1979 all wine was to be metric bottled 1980 all spirits to be metric bottled.It started in the 1500s before we were a nation [if your from the US which everyone is not]. I have a sale on Whitworth screwdrivers if anyone is interested.
 
A .45 cal pistol will always be called a "45". A .22 will always be a "22". a .50 cal machine gun will be called a "50 cal", no matter what. The Army tried to standardize everything to metric many years ago and the 4.2 inch mortar became a 105mm mortar until someone pointed out that it was closer to 106mm. All the while, we were laughing because "4.2 inch mortar" was cast right on it, which is what we kept right on calling it for another 30 years. In the US, frame construction is common with "2x4x8" studs set on 16" centers making "4x8" pieces of sheetrock, plywood or paneling a most sensible dimension, I would say. As far as the actual construction, a true woodworker or journeyman carpenter knows their dimensions and uses them automatically. 4 of my uncles were carpenters and could build stairways without making notes (other than some undecipherable pencil marks on the lumber). The Interstate Highway system was to have been measured in kilometers but only one state did and eventually received millions to convert everything to miles. I've flown aircraft manufactured in europe with metric airframes powered by US engines measured in SAE. I've flown cockpits with 4 altimeters (2 for each pilot) so as to be able to set altimeter in either inches of mercury or millibars. But guess what? The altitude displayed is always in feet, period. Even though the instrument is named "alti-METER". Flight levels are expressed in feet (FL360, etc). I've always preferred the Farenheit scale over the Celcius scale because small temperature changes can be detected sooner but I don't know who identified the Celcius scale as "metric". The acre is so commonly used that I doubt we will ever go to hectares or 2.471044 acres. With our system of land measurement we use 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile up to sections which are 640 acres (one square mile)or 258.992 hectares. Who"s going to change all this? Not me. I'm perfectly comfortable with a 40 acre plot having 1320 feet on each side which happens to be 1/4 of a mile. In the flying world, speed is most oftenly measured in "Knots" which makes sense since one nautical mile is, in equivalent distance, one minute of latitude.
 
While fishing in Canada, one evening we went to the closest town for some ice cream. Ny buddy who had never been out of the US looked at the menu and then asked the young girl behind the counter "How much is a quart of chocolate ice cream?". She exclaimed "A QUART?". Both of them had stunned looks on their faces.
We still laugh at that one.
LA in WI
 
After reading all the comments I figured it's time to get a 2-Liter bottle of soda, 2-grams of my favorite ham and take my 500 milligram fish oil pill for today!


It is ironic. Our medicines have been measured in metric for years and we never question it...
 
That's because the scientific world including medicine went to metrics years and years ago and never looked back. My wife is a medical research scientist (retired now) and she thinks it's just plain silly not to go to the metric system, in spite of my points of absolute fact. She just poo poos the whole SAE/standard system but thinks driving her BMW 75 mph is just fine. (;>)) Buys butter by the pound, too. Eggs by the dozen and thinks selling semi loads of corn with 1100 bushels aboard is just fine. 56 pounds per bushel and she doesn't even bother to convert to 25.4012 kg. Have a nice day.
 
We use both everyday here. I grew up with both so its no big deal but many things stayed imperial/SAE.

-I can't guess how much a person weighs in kg. Almost everyone expresses peoples weight in pounds.

-All our lumber and houses are inches and feet. It wouldn't be hard to switch as lots of drawings for building are in mm. Most contractors are used to both.

-Two sets of tools has been the norm here forever, but bulk metric hardware is still harder to find.

-Degrees C has been used so long here, and makes so much sense there is hardly a person left who thinks in terms of F for temp. Its easy and based around water, 0 is freezing, 100 is boiling, with all the snow up here it makes sense. The old F system was just based on the hottest and coldest temps in England being 0 and 100 marked on a thermometer.
 
I'm not going to say the US should fully adopt the metric system. Though Canada is technically metric, it still isn't in full use. Every construction material is still SAE. Most still use MPG. I'd say more people know their height in SAE than metric, same goes for weight. It was technically adopted in 1970-71. That said it is, in most ways, a superior system, that is easier to use and should save time once people understand it. EVERYTHING is measured in MM. CM is not used at all. Really hard to screw that up. Machining also uses tighter tolerance, as tight as 1/1000MM or 1/25,400inch.I've always wondered about 2L pop. Why isn't it in fl.oz.? I'll give you a quick lesson on metrics. 1ml(1CC) of water weighs 1 gram. 1 litre of water weighs 1kg. 1cubic meter of water weighs 1 tonne. A litre of water takes up 1000CM3 meter=100cm=10mm 1cu.in.=16.39CC 1OZ=29.57ML 1kg=2.204lbs 1tonne=1000kg=2204lbs. 1inch=2.54cm=25.4mm. 1meter=3.28feet=39.37inch 1 hectare=1000M3=2.47acres

If I were to try pushing anything onto the US, it'd be universal healthcare. Forget the metric system. The US would benefit from healthcare way more.
 
Wonder how much longer before China wants their money back ? Then what if the US defaults on the loans do the Chinese now run the show ? If so then it will metric system and yens.
 
Bill
Mostly agree with you, but have a couple points of info.
My newer measuring tapes have 1/2 meter & 1 meter marks at a bit over 19 & 39 inches respectively. Changing building materials to metric would make the newer material not fit with inch sizes in existing structures. I admit, some bolt/nut applications now use metric, causing lots of hair pulling.
When Celcius designed his thermometer He marked the freezing & boiling points, then marked off 100 equal spaces between. . Fahrenheit designed his with 0 at the coldest he could imagine, then marked off equal spaces, not sure how high he would have to go. Freezing happened to be where he had indicated 32, boiling at 212.
In avaition, the "meter" part of altimeter means measuring devise, could also be called altitude indicater. Same as voltmeter, speedometer, ampmeter could be called voltage, speed, or amperage indicating devise.
Not arguing, just the way our language works.
WJ
 
I think they both work equally well. In all my years in the construction industry, I never once had a problem with feet/inches/fractions or tenths. It"s what you"re used to that counts aand the USA has always been primarily feet/inches, etc.
So in my mind, it would just create unecessary problems and force the taxpayers to fork over billions for the paperwork, signs AND a guberment beaurocracy to regulate the change because they would have to stuff it down our throats, just like the healthcare bill!
 
Short of tearing down every frame built house in the country (just about all of them) and rebuilding them in metrics, they would have to re-label all of the 4' by 8' sheets of plywood to a metric measurement equal to 4' and 8' respectively. What metric measurement would they use? Meters? That would be .37161.22m x .74322.43m. Centimeters? That would be 3716.122cm x 7432.243cm. How would that be to call your lumber yard and ask if they had 20 sheets of 371612.2mm x 743224.3mm plywood on hand. See what I mean? My wife dosen't think and work in that world and refuses to listen. All she knows about is her little test tubes with graduations on them and little scales with numbers. But she continues to drive her BMW 75mph, buy butter by the pound, etc. (;>))
 
Hey John.

Going totally metric would really be fun! We could be just like the europeans.

We could all live in tiny apartments with our wives (complete with hairy armpits) and drive golf-cart sized cars jetting blue smoke from their tailpipes.

Jest funnin',

Brad
 
In my day you never heard the word METRIC in school, years after school did not know what it was, still do not understand it and is agrivating when it is displayed bu some idiot thinking we know what it is.
 
in europe a sheet of plywood measured in metric 1m 22 cm x 2m 44cm but it is still 4' x 8' in standard.
Rims and tires on most equipment and veh are still in inches in Europe and all over the world.
Canada went metric in the seventy's, yet one can still hardly find a metric bolt in most stores today.
I grew up in Europe with the metric system, yet i prefer the standard system here cause it is easier to use.
The only times i still use metric is with my lathe,cause the lathe is metric and in small denominations under an inch metric is superior to work with anyway,..same goes for cc's versus ounces.
Everybody i know still uses the standard system.

my 2c
 
I have used both systems my whole life (but i'm a youngin) I move back and forth between both systems. 1/2" or 13mm wrench does the same job ... mostly. I think in km and meters when looking at a 1:50K map but in miles when looking at the AAA atlas. The rest of the world operates in both systems as well. A barrel of oil is 42 gallons which is still what everyone trades oil as. At sea the world uses nautical miles. Units of measurement have evolved out of social norms as much as deliberate attempts at standardization.

paul
 
We are in a mess with metric v imperial in Britain. We weigh ourselves in stones pounds and ounces, but the hospitals are only now starting to use kilos. our hen meal comes in 25 kilo bags or roughly 56 lbs. our tonne is 1000 kilos and not 2240 lbs. we fill our fuel in litres but measure distance in miles and our cars do xx miles per gallon. Our clothes are still in inches, but the food we eat is weighed in kilos and the milk is in litres. Our road speed limits are in MPH until we come to the Irish border then it is KPH!. Our car tyres are imperial and we put in xx lbs of air to keep them hard. The tractor tyre width has went metric,but the rim diameters are still in inches. Some factories work a metric week.....10 days on and 5 off, but the human body finds this tough.... We farmers are hard to adapt away from our acres that was until the EEC introduced a subsidy measured in hectares owned...Now every farmer knows how many hectares he owns!!!
Building materials are a funny one, blocks and bricks are metric since 1972, cement is in kilos, timber is cut in metric measurement but sheeting is still 8x4.Builders have learned not to try and convert. they just use both sides of the tape measure.
I must say that metric is best and my children will not have any adapting to do.....they are nearly totally metric. Sam
 
Hello John B,

The metric system was what I grew up with.
Here in the States and the inch system always amazed me.
A foot is 12 and a yard 36 a mile 5280
a Lb 16, not very easy to remember.
All the measurements in the metric system end with a ZERO
One kilometer is 1000 meters.
One meter is 100 centimeter.
One centimeter is 1000 millimeters.
One liter is 1000 CC.
One kilogram is 1000 grams
One ton is 1000 kilograms
You won't find anyone that was thought the Inch yard mile system to agree that the metric system is better.
OH yea! when you buy eggs, guess how many in the pack. If the a number in the pachage end with A ZERO again............ the meteric system.
I'm done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guido.
 
I have seen two references in this long thread about metric being higher precision or more accurate. I'm afraid at least 2 posters don't have a clue. 1/1000mm IS EXACTLY the same as 0.000003937inches! There is NO accuracy difference!
 
(quoted from post at 17:40:53 02/27/13) I have seen two references in this long thread about metric being higher precision or more accurate. I'm afraid at least 2 posters don't have a clue. [b:105c8f1c12] 1/1000mm IS EXACTLY the same as 0.000003937inches! [/b:105c8f1c12] There is NO accuracy difference!
Click to expand...
ich of the two you think would be easier to work with or multiply and divide ? :wink:
Accuracy and precision plays no role here.
I have no trouble measuring with a calipers in fractions of an inch or in metric,..but a calipers in 1/1000 of inch confuses the daylights out of me,..it may as well be in arabic.
 
John B. I disagree totally with you on this. Why should we waste money on METRIC when we have the largest economy in the world??? Do you think the other countries are going to love us because we converted to "their" system??????

I wish they would out law anything metric in this country. I am sick of keeping four or five different types of bolts.

You think metric is great then how come they have THREE different thread pitch standards on metric screws/bolts.

I say keep the SAE English standard. Make anyone that wants to sell anything here make it to SAE English standards.

I worked for awhile as a machinist. The company got a new CEO he declared that every drawing would only be drawn with metric dimensions. There was only one SMALL problem. Every single machine in the whole factory only had English controls/screws. So we all got real good at setting down and calculating the metric sizes back to English.

It is easy divide MM by 25.4 and you have it in inches.
 
The plywood we buy is already metric. Haven't you noticed that 3/4" plywood really isn't 3/4" anymore? It's some odd 32nd or 64th of an inch. Not quite 3/4" but close. Know why? Because it's really a metric size, 18mm or 19mm or something like that.

Tell me the last time you went into a lumber yard and asked for a "4 by 8 sheet of plywood."

You buy a "SHEET OF PLYWOOD." You don't specify the dimensions when you ask for a standard-sized sheet of plywood. Only time you talk dimensions is if you want them to cut it up for you.
 
There is a difference. In North America, the tighest tolerances used are 1/10000 of an inch. In Europe, they can machine to 1/1000 of a mm which in SAE, is 1/25,400 of an inch.
 
I am 43. We learned both growing up. Today after 20 some years of working, I go back and forth on a daily basis converting between metric and SAE. Once you get the hang of it, no problem. I still see a fair amount of drawings in inches. Majority are metric. Yet, I still think in inches. When I see a dimension called out at 1000mm, I still convert to inches to get an idea of "long" that is, 39 inches still makes more sense in my brain than 1000mm.

Personally I prefer SAE. Unfortunately I had to buy a set of 3/4" metric sockets that go to 52mm to work on some of my stuff.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 09:55:17 02/28/13) There is a difference. In North America, the tighest tolerances used are 1/10000 of an inch. In Europe, they can machine to 1/1000 of a mm which in SAE, is 1/25,400 of an inch.
Click to expand...
ou are getting close. You may make the connection & light come on soon! You are speaking accuracy/precision, which has NOTHING to do with units. We can all specify the SAME accuracy/precision in meters, inches, furlongs, rods, chains, or any other unit of measurement! Sheesh!
 
The Bears are on the 30 yard line (I mean the 27.43 meter line), with only 1 yard (I mean 91.44 cm) to go for a first. :lol:
 
I'm aware that it's possible to convert 1/1000mm to an inch measurement. I'm simply stating that the part of the world that commonly uses MM machines to greater tolerances. 1/1000 of a MM is as accurate as it gets in truly metric countries. 1/10000 of an inch is as accurate as it gets in Imperial countries. The specified tolerances in metric countries are greater than those in Imperial countries.
 
(quoted from post at 06:53:54 02/28/13) The plywood we buy is already metric. Haven't you noticed that 3/4" plywood really [b:bfead01d7d]isn't 3/4" anymore[/b:bfead01d7d]? It's some odd 32nd or 64th of an inch. Not quite 3/4" but close. Know why? Because it's really a metric size, 18mm or [b:bfead01d7d]19mm [/b:bfead01d7d]or something like that.

[b:bfead01d7d]Tell me the last time you went into a lumber yard and asked for a "4 by 8 sheet of plywood." [/b:bfead01d7d]You buy a "SHEET OF PLYWOOD." You don't specify the dimensions when you ask for a standard-sized sheet of plywood. Only time you talk dimensions is if you want them to cut it up for you.
Click to expand...
/4"and 19 mm is pretty much the same.Besides plywood varied a bit in thickness anyway.

I don't know about you but i'll still have to indicate what thickness i want :wink:

I did notice however that rough lumber is these day's less than 2" thick,nou i don't know if that is due to a sawmill's conversion to metric or more to the fact of more acurate sawing so as to limit planing losses when making dimensional lumber and/or to get more usefull wood out of our dwindling tree supply..
 
I can see the chaos when people see the sign EXIT XXX 2 KM", and they only have 1 1/3 mile to get into the proper lane. The time I went into Toronto I don't know where I would have wound up if not for some other drivers noticing my US plates and giving me room to get the right lane.
 
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